Tilting at windmills redux

[Devadatta]

Hi BB.


on the contrary - it was the shortfall in the moral payments that made the sacrifices so repulsive. to put it another way, it's like cheating on your wife and then expecting flowers and chocolate to heal the relationship. flowers and chocolate are all very well when you're doing all the important stuff, but they are not a substitute for a genuine love and caring.

Interesting point. In that sense, could one say that while the Law in the first instance regulated the sacrifice, this was not its ultimate point, that the true sacrifice was raised to another level? If so, this is similar to the Indian moves as referred to in the BG to frame various practices as a kind of sacrifice, even breath control. As well, to me this points to the dreadful irony of Paul, who brings back the idea of blood sacrifice with a vengeance, and who in my view likely had a much less nuanced view of the Law than did Yeshua.

in that sense, judaism has *always* been ideological, rooted in social change and moral advancement. where i think the difference is is where the ideology is based not upon a selection of the "good" from amongst the inherent drivers of human nature, but upon theoretical utopianism, especially in cases where this is based upon faulty perceptions of these drivers, as in the case of communism (every child's second word is "mine!")

Agreed. In another thread I call this permanent revolution, and the idea that while in concrete terms revolutions tend as we know to re-establish tyranny, in metaphysical terms it’s a process of reification where a spiritual energy is recaptured in some more or less concrete form, i.e., the re-establishment of idols. In that sense, the deification of Yeshua was one of greatest reifications of all. I expect you would only go part way with me on this question of reification, but perhaps you would agree your God is fundamentally spirit, energy, act; from the opening of Genesis every word is assimilated to act, and so concretization of this spirit, conceptual or otherwise, seems to me a re-erection of idols.

hmm - this begins to sound like the beginning of a dialogue about "authenticity".

You’re right. Let’s not go there. As you know, people tie themselves in knots over these things. The truth is hopelessly mixed; authenticity is never fully recoverable. In all modesty we can only deal with the issue schematically, when we have to.

Thanks for getting back.

Shanti.

 

[bananabrain]

Interesting point. In that sense, could one say that while the Law in the first instance regulated the sacrifice, this was not its ultimate point, that the true sacrifice was raised to another level?

precisely. and under the first Temple regimes of the kings of israel and judah, this level became obscured. the point of it was lost. that is what the prophets were so upset about.

If so, this is similar to the Indian moves as referred to in the BG to frame various practices as a kind of sacrifice, even breath control.

precisely; as it says in hosea: "we compensate for the bulls with our lips".

As well, to me this points to the dreadful irony of Paul, who brings back the idea of blood sacrifice with a vengeance, and who in my view likely had a much less nuanced view of the Law than did Yeshua.

i don't know about that. i'm no expert on either of them. 'owevair, i would be inclined to speculate that a) the blood sacrifice stuff was available in the mystery religions that were widely practiced in the roman empire although b) the idea of the transfiguration of body and blood is, i would have thought, directly attributed to jesus himself.

in metaphysical terms it’s a process of reification where a spiritual energy is recaptured in some more or less concrete form, i.e., the re-establishment of idols.

this is precisely the definition of the genesis of idol worship that is given by maimonides.

perhaps you would agree your God is fundamentally spirit, energy, act; from the opening of Genesis every word is assimilated to act, and so concretization of this spirit, conceptual or otherwise, seems to me a re-erection of idols.

to be precise: G!D Is All. the universe of action is the one humans inhabit. of course we would suggest that nearly anything can be perverted into idol worship.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Devadatta]

i don't know about that. i'm no expert on either of them. 'owevair, i would be inclined to speculate that a) the blood sacrifice stuff was available in the mystery religions that were widely practiced in the roman empire although b) the idea of the transfiguration of body and blood is, i would have thought, directly attributed to jesus himself.

Well, I wouldn’t want to defend this as a P.H.D. thesis either! And I suspect you’re right that the mystery religions had more to do with this “body and blood” business than did the Jewish sacrificial tradition as such.

But I reason (feebly no doubt) like this: even if we assume that Yeshua did indeed utter those famous “body and blood” words at the last supper – and from my perspective we have no assurance of that – it’s a question of a metaphor and in what sense and in what direction we take it. Paul’s doctrine of original sin, that one man, Adam, brought sin and suffering into the world, and therefore one man Jesus, must take it out again, really nails this down as an instance of blood sacrifice. Jesus suffers and dies for our sins because someone must pay the price. It’s one of the most hideous doctrines ever contrived, in my view.

Now, Yeshua certainly appeared ready to give up his life in service of the spirit of the law, to announce the kingdom and to exemplify the gospel of love, and certainly that was as spiritual and even as mystical an act one need imagine. But did he really think he was suffering and dying out of expiation, and for the disobedience of the legendary father of the human race? That he was literally a lamb led to slaughter? This I have reason to doubt.

Now, of course, Paul sprinkled plenty of lentils on the trail behind him for apologists to pick up on; so it’s a question of obedience answering disobedience, the death of old man Adam, blah blah, and you know that theologians can blah blah anything into angel dust.

But it’s lucky that Yeshua wasn’t completely swallowed up by the founding neuroses of Paul and orthodoxy, that some Christians emulate his life, and don’t dwell on absurdities around his death.

Shanti.