Baha'i/Ananda Marga

[arthra]

World Government and Spiritual Interpretations:

Vapour wrote:

So the world government is more of prohecy. o.k. Thanks.

Reply:

Baha'u'llah advised the rulers of HIs day to send reps to a world parliament and reduce their armaments also a world court of arbitration was to be set up... so far we have today the UN and a world court...so things are moving along somewhat although delayed a bit I would say....

Vapour:

As of the different religions uniting under Baha'i interpretation, I don't see it happening.

Reply:

I think there will always be various religions..what will be different is how we relate to one another... In time I think the religions will support similar goals and work more in harmony...There are only five to six million Baha'is in the world but the Faith is growing in many areas.. It will in my view become more prominent and influence cultures of future societies.

Vapour:

Baha'i interpretation of other religions appeart to go against core principle of these religion. For example, islam, the prophet mohammed being not the last prophet or, for buddism, idea of monotheism and almighty creator. I mean, if the prophet mohammed wasn't supposed to be the last prohpet, I would assume the god has made that part bit clear by clearly indicating the distinction between two terms. That interpretation just looks too streched.

Reply:

I don't know how much you've read of our scriptures but there's a great deal relating to Islamic topics... Most early Baha'is were Moslem students and scholars and were well versed. The issue of Buddhism is under another topic here... and you can apprise yourself of that.

Vapour:

Accepting such interpretation appear to be no different from converting from one faith to another because it offer no clear way to show that such interpretation is superior than the other numerous interpretation for employing symbolic interpretation.

Reply:

It's true the spiritual interpretations are more valued by us than literalist ones and also if you read holy scriptures in very literal word for word ways you probably will not grasp their deeper significances I think and be lost in arguments with other litaralists....

Vapour:

Why do you think Baha'i's interpretation is better. Is it matter of faith as I have been saying or is there something else?

Reply:

I think you should probably read the Kitab-i-Iqan revealed by Baha'u'llah to appreciate the significance of Baha'i interpretation and this book was revealed in three days time in repsonse to some literalist questions about Qur'an and Holy Scriptures....The online edition can be found at:

http://bahai-library.com/writings/bahaullah/iqan/

God's blessings!

 

[iBrian]

Baha'u'llah advised the rulers of HIs day to send reps to a world parliament and reduce their armaments also a world court of arbitration was to be set up... so far we have today the UN and a world court...so things are moving along somewhat although delayed a bit I would say....

Usually a parliament is an elected body, though - and we all know that the USA has opted out of the International Court of Justice, and has pressured other nations to abandon the project.

But, indeed, there is a One World Government thread in Politics and Society.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Hi, Brian!

As for a world government - I'm not convinced that Baha'is have considered the realities of politics here. . . .

What you appear to overlook is the fact that what Baha'is see as "government" is radically different from conventional present-day governmental systems in a number of major ways!

The Baha'i administrative system, completely eliminates partisanship and division from the picture! While fully democratic, with elected leadership, it has no nominations and no campaigning, and even discussion of individual personalities is forbidden! Instead, the Bahai's of a community gather together in an atmosphere of prayer, and each individual votes by secret ballot for those individuals he or she feels are best qualified to hold the office. Those receiving the most votes are automatically elected. (There is also a special tie-breaking system that explicitly favors tying minority members, the definition of "minority" varying from place to place.)

There is thus no chance either to "run for office" or, once elected, to refuse to serve (save on grounds such as medical inability). This completely eliminates the classic corruption process of "I voted for you; now here's what I want you to do for me!"

And Baha'i administration operates not by divisive or antagonistic methods, but through consultation, which seeks to build consensus (tho' failing this, a majority vote may prevail) and in which no one may remain wedded to whatever her original proposal was.

The seven million Baha'is have already been using this very administrative system internally world wide, in essentially every country on earth, at the local, regional, national, and world levels! So we know that it can and does work, and that it also serves will to foster unity rather than alienation (as contrasted with the divide-and-conquer methods of conventional politics)!

As the saying goes, "Try it; you'll like it!"

Best,

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings!

f the prophet mohammed wasn't supposed to be the last prohpet, I would assume the god has made that part bit clear by clearly indicating the distinction between two terms. That interpretation just looks too streched.

Nothing is "stretched" in the least! Meaning no offense, you seem to be objecting to a fantasy of your own devising.

Muhammad specifically said He was the Seal of the nabi (the minor prophets), as specifically and explicitly recorded in the Qur'an! He DID NOT say of the Rasu'l (major Divine Messengers); He said of the nabi! So we're simply taking HIm at His word on this!

We have stretched nothing whatever: He said X, and we believe He meant X. YOU are the one who has the problem in this respect because He said X, and you wish to claim He meant Y!

Simple as that.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Vajradhara]

Hi, Brian!



What you appear to overlook is the fact that what Baha'is see as "government" is radically different from conventional present-day governmental systems in a number of major ways!

The Baha'i administrative system, completely eliminates partisanship and division from the picture! While fully democratic, with elected leadership, it has no nominations and no campaigning, and even discussion of individual personalities is forbidden! Instead, the Bahai's of a community gather together in an atmosphere of prayer, and each individual votes by secret ballot for those individuals he or she feels are best qualified to hold the office. Those receiving the most votes are automatically elected. (There is also a special tie-breaking system that explicitly favors tying minority members, the definition of "minority" varying from place to place.)

There is thus no chance either to "run for office" or, once elected, to refuse to serve (save on grounds such as medical inability). This completely eliminates the classic corruption process of "I voted for you; now here's what I want you to do for me!"

And Baha'i administration operates not by divisive or antagonistic methods, but through consultation, which seeks to build consensus (tho' failing this, a majority vote may prevail) and in which no one may remain wedded to whatever her original proposal was.

The seven million Baha'is have already been using this very administrative system internally world wide, in essentially every country on earth, at the local, regional, national, and world levels! So we know that it can and does work, and that it also serves will to foster unity rather than alienation (as contrasted with the divide-and-conquer methods of conventional politics)!

As the saying goes, "Try it; you'll like it!"

Best,

Bruce

Namaste Bruce,

thank you for the post.

how many females are elected to the House of Justice in Hafia?

how much turn over has there been of the N.S.B. (National Spiritual Board..iirc) in North America since 1900?

 

[arthra]

Baha'i Institutions:

Namaste Bruce,

thank you for the post.

how many females are elected to the House of Justice in Hafia?

how much turn over has there been of the N.S.B. (National Spiritual Board..iirc) in North America since 1900?

Vajra:

The National Spiritual Assembly in the United States and Canada was not established until April 4, 1927. By 1948, Canada had its own NSA... off hand I wouldn't have the stats on turnover of those bodies but I do have year books going back to the era and over all Baha'i institutions are very stable and turnover is probably at around twenty percent. In those early years a Baha'i who distinguished themselves was usually elected to office and continued to be as long as they were actively of service the community.

We're just entering our Ridwan Holy Day on April 21st.... see my remarks under that heading elsewhere.... Baha'is in thousands of localities around the world elect the Local Spiritual Assemblies in each political jurisdiction, this means in all natiosn where it's legal and there are at least nine adult members, we gather to elect Assemblies... Every year Baha'is all over the world gather in Conventions and elect delegates to our annual National Convention in each country...these are 179 National Spiritual Assemblies...every five years delegates are selected to elect the Universal House of Justice, our Supreme Institution.... Women do not serve on this body because in His Most Holy Book , Baha'u'llah decreed how it was to be composed...of men only.

I can assure you though that since 1963 the House of Justice has carried out our principle of the equality of men and women in every instance...so it is not a vestige of male supremacy as women have been in the forefront to support this Institution of our Faith.

You would probably need to study our history to understand how much women have been important in establishing our Faith.

- Art

 

[arthra]

Usually a parliament is an elected body, though - and we all know that the USA has opted out of the International Court of Justice, and has pressured other nations to abandon the project.

But, indeed, there is a One World Government thread in Politics and Society.

As i mentioned earlier...whether the current US administration recognizes the International Court of Justice in every instance or not, is to me rather insignificant as we should consider the long term....The United States regularly has cases brought before the Court so in essence recognizes it's validity. You can access the Court's docket to verify this.

For inforamtion on the Court see

http://212.153.43.18/icjwww/igeneralinformation.htm

- Art

 

[barefootgal9]

Vaj

"how many females are elected to the House of Justice in Hafia?"

Baha'u'llah specifically indicated that the members of the judiciary branch, the Universal House of Justice, would be male, (as I'm sure by now you are aware.) You have been visiting Planet Baha'i, and there are several threads there discussing the matter in great detail.

But, to give a simplified response, 'Abdu'l-Baha stated that the reason for this would become apparent in time. Meanwhile, no Baha'i knows the exactly why, but generally trust Baha'u'llah must have had good reason. We do know, however, that the second "Pillar" of Baha'i adminstration, called "the Learned," or "Appointive" Institutions, plays a balancing and nurturing role. It's not unreasonable to think (IMO) of the UHJ as the "masculine" side of the administrative system and the Counsellors and Auxilliary Boards as the "feminine" aspect. The first "sits in judgment" while the other "teaches and encorages." It is very strongly and explicity stated in our writings that this one unique instance does NOT indicate any dificiency on the part women. In every other institution of the faith, women and men both serve, and as of this point in time, if it's any reassurance to you, the women usually way outnumber the men!

Personally, I speculate He set it up this way for balance, but exactly why and how it will proove out, I do not know.

"how much turn over has there been of the N.S.B. (National Spiritual Board..iirc) in North America since 1900? "

I assume you mean the National Spiritual Assembly (NSA)?

Should there be turnover?

I think it would be worrisome if there were a heavy turnover -- it would indicate that there was apparent conflict and disunity at the helm, or confusion and unhappiness among the community. But as the institution functions very well, the Baha'is don't feel much need to "fix" it. I'm sure we would vote new people on if we thought there were problems, just as we do in our local communities.

If there is a "bad apple" in the group, his own words and behavior will become apparent to the community. Meanwhile, none of these individuals has any personal authority, so even if we should, somehow, have misjudged and elected a "bad apple" -- he/she'd have to one very powerful apple indeed to sway eight other of the "best and the brightest" we can find. The institution works on a consultative basis. For me, their "report card" is the annual record which shows how many decisions were made (last I recall, something like 10,000), and how many of these were made by consensus and how many had to be decided by majority vote. (I also know what the important decisions were, and their reasoning for them, which is also reported to the community on an annual basis.) In all the years I have been a Baha'i, their decisions have been 100% by consensus. To me this is an extremely strong indicator that they are a very effective consultative group. Should I ever see that the NSA is having to resort repeatedly to "voting it out" -- I'll know something is very wrong and will look sharply at the membership to spot why!

If you're truly interested, I could research the "turnover" numbers. But I expect that your question arises from having run across some ex-Baha'i site asserting that this low turnover signalizes that the institution is being "controlled" by an "insider group." (I have seen a couple of these on the net.) No, it's "controlled" by us Baha'is electing the people who inspire our admiration and confidence. "Low turnover" just isn't a "problem" to the Baha'is and very few of us are much impressed by the "conspiracy theories."

 

[BruceDLimber]

How many females are elected to the House of Justice in Hafia?

The number specified by the Baha'i scriptures, as I trust you know.

Please note that we (as you) do not have the right to alter God-sent Divine Revelation whether we happen agree with it or not!

How much turn over has there been of the N.S.B. (National Spiritual Board..iirc) in North America since 1900?

Considerable!

And those who serve well and with real dedication tend to be re-elected at ALL levels, which is hardly inappropriate!

By the way, the name is the National Spiritual Assembly, not "board."

I find it telling that you completely ignored everything I said and all the points I made about the nature of Baha'i administration in contrast to conventional politics, to concentrate on what Baha'is regard as two relatively minor details. . . . Perhaps there's no refutation? The facts about its success stand and are there for all to examine.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[iBrian]

The number specified by the Baha'i scriptures, as I trust you know.

Please note that we (as you) do not have the right to alter God-sent Divine Revelation whether we happen agree with it or not!

Whether a certain work is accepted to be Divinely Inspired to any degree or interpretation of the word is a matter of personal faith.

I don't think this is an issue that Baha'is can claim supremacy over - having altered the interpretation of various other texts held to be "God-sent Divine Revelation" by other religions.

 

[barefootgal9]

It is always the domain of the individual human heart to draw one's own ultimate meaning and understanding from spiritual texts, regardless of what religious source. IMO.

This particular matter, however, is not one of spiritual and mystical teachings, but clear statements by Baha'u'llah in His Kitab-i-Aqdas -- Book of Laws -- as to how the Baha'i community is to be structured and governed.

Baha'u'llah's Aqdas is written in Arabic. In that language, there are two distinct words which translate into English as "men." One is used to indicate the all-inclusive "mankind," the other is always gender specific. Baha'u'llah uses the gender specific term every time He speaks of the members of the Universal House of Justice. In the English translation, the term may appear open to interpretation, but in the original text, it is unarguable.

The only persons authorized by Baha'u'llah to authoritatively "interpret" any question about His laws were His son and appointed successor, 'Abdu'l-Baha -- Baha'u'llah forbade any believer from disputing with him; 'Abdu'l-Baha appointed his grandson, Shoghi Effendi, to be the Guardian of the Faith and ultimate authority in all matters of interpretation after him. Not even the Universal House of Justice has the authority to "reinterpret" a matter clearly spelled out by 'Abdul-Baha and the Guardian. They may interpret only when the meaning or appropriate application of a law is open to question.

Both 'Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi addressed this subject many times. I think that there is no lack of clarity here:

-----

Directives From the Guardian, Pages 79-80

211: UNIVERSAL HOUSE OF JUSTICE, MEMBERSHIP
1 "As regards your question concerning the membership of the Universal House of Justice, there is a Tablet from `Abdu'l-Bahá in which He definitely states that the membership of the Universal House is confined to men and that the wisdom of it will be fully revealed in the future. In the local, as well as the National Houses of Justice, however, women have the full right of membership. It is therefore, only to the International House that they cannot be elected. The Bahá'ís should accept this statement of the Master in a spirit of deep faith, confident that there is a divine guidance and wisdom behind it, which will be gradually unfolded to the eyes of the world."

2 "Regarding your question, the Master said the wisdom of having no women on the International House of Justice, would become manifest in the future. We have no other indication than this.

3 "At present there are women on the International Council, and this will continue as long as it exists, but when the International House of Justice is elected, there will only be men on it, as this is the law of the Aqdas."

 

[iBrian]

It is always the domain of the individual human heart to draw one's own ultimate meaning and understanding from spiritual texts, regardless of what religious source. IMO.

Indeed - for a moment I had almost thought Bruce was claiming that Vaj should be subject to the Laws dictated by Baha'u'llah!

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,


thank you all for the replies.

actually, no, i wasn't aware since i've not read the Baha'i scripture. the information that i've inquired about has been raised in other areas and i was interested in an understanding of the reasons why.

so... if i understand correctly.. the UHJ is for men only and there isn't a good reason other than it's written this way... is that correct?

if women have played such a role in the tradition and they are considered the equal of men, why can they not hold a position in the UHJ? i realize that this is a question that cannot be answered in a manner which makes much sense to me.. that's my own issue to deal with... it just strikes me as completely at odds with the rest of the message of a "world government" and so forth.

 

[barefootgal9]

Brian

At least as I understand it -- the covenant between Baha'u'llah and His followers is -- between Him and His followers. This spells out the rights and responsibilities of Baha'is and their institutions. Only those who recoginize Him as a Manifestation could reasonably be expected to observe these.

He distinguishes this covenant from "The Ancient Covenant" -- that between humanity and God, which I would paraphrase as: mankind must seek and follow God's guidance, and God will faithfully provide it. This Covenant, by implication, contains the universal spiritual laws, like love thy neighbor as thyself, which have been given throughout history and are binding upon all mankind.

I doubt that Bruce believes differently, but I can see how it might look that way from his comments. This "discussion point" is one used by a certain handful of people who, for whatever reason, often attack the verity of our institutions, claiming, for instance, that the UHJ made up the "men only" law. It's been thrown into our faces rather a lot recently, so we, I think understandably, sometimes get a little touchy. On the open internet, we really don't know, exactly, who we are talking to -- and whether the question is an innocent inquiry, or an attempt to draw us into discussing this group's "conspiracy" theory. We're trying our best to learn how to handle this "issue" moderately and wisely.

bfg

I hope

 

[barefootgal9]

Vaj

so... if i understand correctly.. the UHJ is for men only and there isn't a good reason other than it's written this way... is that correct?

if women have played such a role in the tradition and they are considered the equal of men, why can they not hold a position in the UHJ? i realize that this is a question that cannot be answered in a manner which makes much sense to me.. that's my own issue to deal with... it just strikes me as completely at odds with the rest of the message of a "world government" and so forth.

As was noted in the quotations I posted, none of us, in or outside the Faith, can really "make much sense" of it. It is simply one of the conditions of Baha'u'llah's covenant -- perhaps on the same line as circumcision in Judaism or refraining from eating pork for a Muslim. Perhaps it's role is simply to "separate the sheep from the goats" -- filter out those followers who really are not ready or able to commit all the way to Baha'u'llah's guidance. As in, I'm going to give you hard challenges -- are you ready for them? If you can't cope with this little hop, however will you manage the really severe hurdles ahead? Can you trust Me this far...?

The purpose of the Baha'i Faith is to enable us members to develop the capacity to be in loving unity with persons having wide diversity of opinion, background, and viewpont. To do this we must learn not to sweat the small stuff and get caught up in endless argumentation over relatively insignificant points. So, I sometimes think that maybe the whole purpose of this rule could be to stand as a kind of built in "quibble test." After all, Baha'u'llah had more than His share of "quibblers" to deal with during His lifetime! Why not build in a little test that would protect the community from people who just can't "go with the flow" without throwing their truckload of "yabbuts" at the people and institutions who are trying their level best?

But this is just my own speculation, and probably if you scratch any Baha'i they will offer their own pet theory. On the "why" of this, however, personal speculation is all there is, because Baha'u'llah simply did not explain it.

 

[Vapour]

Greetings!

Nothing is "stretched" in the least! Meaning no offense, you seem to be objecting to a fantasy of your own devising.

Muhammad specifically said He was the Seal of the nabi (the minor prophets), as specifically and explicitly recorded in the Qur'an! He DID NOT say of the Rasu'l (major Divine Messengers); He said of the nabi! So we're simply taking HIm at His word on this!

We have stretched nothing whatever: He said X, and we believe He meant X. YOU are the one who has the problem in this respect because He said X, and you wish to claim He meant Y!

Simple as that.

Peace,

Bruce

Oh so new prophet can emerge even now as long as s/he get divine message *indirectly* from something such as angel then. Otherwise, the scripture wouldn't have use the word, *direct* would it.

Hermeneutic arts is indeed a subtle art. Usually, one diverge from literal interpretation only if there are supporting materals (such as the totality of the entire sentece or the the records of circumstances in which the scripture is recorded) to justify such divergence. I'm quite sure you can quote other part of your scripture to show that my *linguistic* interpretation of your scripture is a bit of a strech.

As of nabi and rasu'l, even though I'm no expert in arabic, I'm informed that difference of the two terms is far more subtle than what your interpretation suggst (nabi/rasu'l=minor/major). Now since we appear to be no expert in arabic, and my muslim friend declined to participate in this debate, it is pointless for both of us to discuss what the meaning of this two terms are.

But even if I accpet that Mohhamed not being the final prophet is a possible *linguistic* interpretation, I find it extremly difficut to take such possiblity to be the case given the total absence of any mention of future prophet(s) in Koran or Hadith.

As of spritual interpretation, that I have no problem with because it is a matter of faith and it's not really something about which interpretation is more probable.

 

[barefootgal9]

vapour

You could ask your friend if the Muslims expect the return of Christ sometime in the future.

His answer may surprise you.

; )

 

[Vapour]

Ah, it won't suprise me because I know the answer my friend will give. Aside from that, Jesus appeared in this world before Mohammed. Plus, as long as Jesus (of islam) won't perform prophecy when he return, there isn't anything to worry about contradiction.

 

[arthra]

Oh so new prophet can emerge even now as long as s/he get divine message *indirectly* from something such as angel then. Otherwise, the scripture wouldn't have use the word, *direct* would it.

Hermeneutic arts is indeed a subtle art. Usually, one diverge from literal interpretation only if there are supporting materals (such as the totality of the entire sentece or the the records of circumstances in which the scripture is recorded) to justify such divergence. I'm quite sure you can quote other part of your scripture to show that my *linguistic* interpretation of your scripture is a bit of a strech.

As of nabi and rasu'l, even though I'm no expert in arabic, I'm informed that difference of the two terms is far more subtle than what your interpretation suggst (nabi/rasu'l=minor/major). Now since we appear to be no expert in arabic, and my muslim friend declined to participate in this debate, it is pointless for both of us to discuss what the meaning of this two terms are.

But even if I accpet that Mohhamed not being the final prophet is a possible *linguistic* interpretation, I find it extremly difficut to take such possiblity to be the case given the total absence of any mention of future prophet(s) in Koran or Hadith.

As of spritual interpretation, that I have no problem with because it is a matter of faith and it's not really something about which interpretation is more probable.

Baha'is generally see the Qur'anic references to the Judgement day and Resurrection as referring to the dispensation of Bab and Baha'u'llah in spiritual terms..See the following:

http://www.bahai-library.com/books/announcement.quran/10.html

Also there are Hadiths attributed to the Imams, the direct descendents of Prophet Muhammad, some of these we Baha'is consider important. The Bab for instance fulfilled in our view the prophecy of the Return of the Twefth Imam...

Most Moslems also accept that Jesus will return and that also along with our view of Biblical prophecies of the return of Christ are accepted by Baha'is. Again though, with emphasis, these prophecies are taken in spiritual terms.

- Art

 

[barefootgal9]

Vapour

The point being, whatever Muhammad meant by the "Seal," or what one makes of "nabi" or "rasool," it doesn't preclude the appearance of Christ on "that Day."

Baha'is simply (or outrageously, depending on your take) believe that Baha'u'llah is that One.

Whatever prophesying THAT One wishes to do or not do is up to Him, whatever explanations He wishes to give, again, are up to Him, regardless of whatever we think He ought to do or not from our understanding and interpretation of "signs." "God doeth as He willeth and pleaseth."

(sorry, i don't no nuthin bout heirom ... heumnio ... er, never mind .... just trying mah dangdest to do english good enuff.... maybe you cud learn me up on this stuff ... )