The art of happiness

[Netti-Netti]

how love, compassion and forgiveness expressed in Christianity through faith can be backed up by the reason expressed in Buddhism.

You mean Reason is nonoperative in Christianity and Christians must look to Buddhism to make up for what's missing from Christianity?

 

[seattlegal]

You mean Reason is nonoperative in Christianity and Christians must look to Buddhism to make up for what's missing from Christianity?

Not at all. I would say that having the same principles reaffirmed from a different perspective has increased my appreciation for both traditions.

 

[Netti-Netti]

“For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

I'm having trouble reconciling this to the notion of Grace being independent of an individual's actions. It seems to be making G-d's forgiveness contingent on us being forgiving towards each other. It amounts to "you better be forgiving or else you won't get forgiven."

That's coercive. It also makes being forgiving toward others a way to manipulate G-d.

 

[seattlegal]

“For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

I have trouble reconciling this to the notion of Grace being independent of an individual's actions. It seems to be making G-d's forgiveness contingent on us being forgiving towards each other. It amounts to "you better be forgiving or else you won't get forgiven." That's coercive. It also makes being forgiving toward others a way to manipulate G-d. Sorry, don't care for it.

God is kind to the unthankful and evil, so how would that be manipulating God? (See Luke 6:27-36)

If you receive God's kindness and grace, but you are filled with hate, will you be happy? (Dhammapada 1:1-5)

 

[Netti-Netti]

God is kind to the unthankful and evil, so how would that be manipulating God? (See Luke 6:27-36)

Looks to be a contradiction ... unless therer are some unstated terms for G-d to be kind toward the unthankful and evil. Btw, do we have to bring in Luke to explain Matthew?

Anyhoo, yes G-d makes the sun shine on evil and good, and I have no doubt that G-d is merciful even toward those who are unthankful and evil. What's missing here is a context that sheds some light on applicable terms and conditions.

G-d extends His mercy to all . . . IF they observe certain conditions. For one thing, G-d cannot forgive a person who won't accept forgiveness. Based on Luke 6:37 and Matthew 6:14-15, it seems there are other terms and conditions.

The passage from Matthew clearly says: don't expect G-d to forgive you unless you are forgiving others. Those are the terms of an agreement. Luke restates the same terms as those we see in Matthew 6:14-15 in a more condensed way, with a slight change in the wording: "Forgive, and you will be forgiven." ~Luke 6:37

Being forgiven is said to be predicated on forgiving. If I accept the terms of this arrangement, it positions me as someone who recognizes G-d's forgiveness as being contingent on my action. In other words, it's entering into agreement that makes G-d's favorable action toward me dependent on my actions. In that sense, it is manipulative.

Indeed, how's it different from making sacrifices a la the Old Testament, sacrifices that were clearly manipulative attempts to placate or "buy off" a wrathful G-d?

And how far removed is it from various kinds of sorcery that are intended to appeal to certain deities to get them to grant certain favors?

To my way of thinking, to make sacrifices to G-d for anything is tantamount to trying to manipulate Him. Likewise, to engage in any form of virtuous action in the hope of increasing my chances of salvation is to try to manipulate Him. To entreaty G-d for anything is tantamount to trying to manipulate Him. This is contrary to the New Testament G-d who loves us unconditionally.

If all we have to do is accept His forgiveness, then there's no point in doing tricks for G-d to get Him to be forthcoming with that which, by definition is always available - Grace. Even if the tricks are exceptually impressive and virtuous, it makes no difference. G-d loves you regardless. The issue becomes one of empowerment.

If we truly accept God's love, why do we continue to act as though we haven't really received it? My answer: less-than-ideal circumstances and lack of faith.

The common sense solution is to find new circumstances that support actions we can sanctify wholeheartedly and feel really good about and which allow us to experience G-d's love more directly and enable us to become better vehicles for infusing this world with G-d's love. I know, easier said than done. It takes a lot of courage, which we would have available to us if we truly had faith.

 

[seattlegal]

Looks to be a contradiction ... unless therer are some unstated terms for G-d to be kind toward the unthankful and evil. Btw, do we have to bring in Luke to explain Matthew?

Anyhoo, yes G-d makes the sun shine on evil and good, and I have no doubt that G-d is merciful even toward those who are unthankful and evil. What's missing here is a context that sheds some light on applicable terms and conditions.

G-d extends His mercy to all . . . IF they observe certain conditions. For one thing, G-d cannot forgive a person who won't accept forgiveness. Based on Luke 6:37 and Matthew 6:14-15, it seems there are other terms and conditions.

The passage from Matthew clearly says: don't expect G-d to forgive you unless you are forgiving others. Those are the terms of an agreement. Luke restates the same terms as those we see in Matthew 6:14-15 in a more condensed way, with a slight change in the wording: "Forgive, and you will be forgiven." ~Luke 6:37

Being forgiven is said to be predicated on forgiving. If I accept the terms of this arrangement, it positions me as someone who recognizes G-d's forgiveness as being contingent on my action. In other words, it's entering into agreement that makes G-d's favorable action toward me dependent on my actions. In that sense, it is manipulative.

Does this sound manipulative?

If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion.
~Dalai Lama​

Indeed, how's it different from making sacrifices a la the Old Testament, sacrifices that were clearly manipulative attempts to placate or "buy off" a wrathful G-d?

And how far removed is it from various kinds of sorcery that are intended to appeal to certain deities to get them to grant certain favors?

To my way of thinking, to make sacrifices to G-d for anything is tantamount to trying to manipulate Him. Likewise, to engage in any form of virtuous action in the hope of increasing my chances of salvation is to try to manipulate Him. To entreaty G-d for anything is tantamount to trying to manipulate Him. This is contrary to the New Testament G-d who loves us unconditionally.

If all we have to do is accept His forgiveness, then there's no point in doing tricks for G-d to get Him to be forthcoming with that which, by definition is always available - Grace. Even if the tricks are exceptually impressive and virtuous, it makes no difference. G-d loves you regardless. The issue becomes one of empowerment.

But will you be happy?

If we truly accept God's love, why do we continue to act as though we haven't really received it? My answer: less-than-ideal circumstances and lack of faith.

Not being happy, and not doing what it takes to purge the hate we cling to? (Forgive others?)

The common sense solution is to find new circumstances...

You can run, but you can't hide from yourself.

...that support actions we can sanctify wholeheartedly and feel really good about and which allow us to experience G-d's love more directly and enable us to become better vehicles for infusing this world with G-d's love. I know, easier said than done. It takes a lot of courage, which we would have available to us if we truly had faith.

And these actions would be.....?

 

[Netti-Netti]

If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion.

~Dalai Lama​

I like a simple formula.

This statement from the Dalai Lama assumes that the practice of compassion will be done properly. Right intention without a skill level can cause more suffering.

Does the Dalai Lama's statement sound manipulative? No it doesn't - certainly not in the sense of me trying to influence G-d or me trying to bargain with Him to get me some Grace. Nor is it taking the attitude that G-d owes me forgiveness because I've been dutifully forgiving toward others.

Obviously, there is no mention of G-d anywhere in the Dalai Lama's statement. It seems to me that all he is saying is that compassion is a virtuous state which may lead to contentment.

Btw, I don't think he necessarily means that people should practice compassion in order to be happy. The way it's phrased, happiness would appear to be a byproduct of practicing compassion - not incidental exactly, but almost... If I'm trying to practice compassion to be happy, then I'm probably doing it wrong.

 

[Ciel]

I like a simple formula.

This statement from the Dalai Lama assumes that the practice of compassion will be done properly. Right intention without a skill level can cause more suffering.

A human being with genuine care and love gives compassion freely.

- c -

 

[Netti-Netti]

A human being with genuine care and love gives compassion freely.

Hi Ciel, yes of course. My point is that doesn't mean it'll be effective. You know, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

The beauty of the human mind is its capacity for self delusion. Just because I can conceptualize the notion of selfless service doesn't mean I can carry it off and get good results. To think that one implies the other is magical thinking.

Even our understanding of compassion is bound to be incomplete. Arguably every definition we can come up with of compassion will be colored by some form of self-interest, even if it is unconscious.

 

[Ciel]

Hi Ciel, yes of course. My point is that doesn't mean it'll be effective. You know, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

The beauty of the human mind is its capacity for self delusion. Just because I can conceptualize the notion of selfless service doesn't mean I can carry it off and get good results. To think that one implies the other is magical thinking.

Even our understanding of compassion is bound to be incomplete. Arguably every definition we can come up with of compassion will be colored by some form of self-interest, even if it is unconscious.

Absolute Bull N-N.

You may speak for yourself but it is not the same for all.

- c -

 

[Netti-Netti]

You may speak for yourself but it is not the same for all.

Hi Ciel,

I usually express my own personal views. However, with my comment about magical thinking, I was extending a well-established fact about people's blind tendency to overestimate their positive impact on the world around them. It is a reliable phenomena that has been demonstrated in social psychology research many times over. It's called self-serving bias.

One other quick comment. Basic humility about notions of what's right and good and effective would appear to be an important safeguard against what Reinhold Niebuhr calls "the grievous temptation to self-adulation by which humankind has time and again sought to exalt itself against the knowledge of G-d." He notes that without that humility, the Church became "not merely useless but dangerous." Why would it be any different in the case of individuals?

The Fall, as described in Genesis, relates to this unwillingness to accept human limitations combined with a willingness to substitute some relativized or corrupt versions of ideal possibilities. Recall the serpent's offer: "become like G-d." That original sin is repeated over and over again, giving us an unlimited supply of personal demons, organizational demons, corporate demons, financial demons, institutional demons, whathaveyou.

 

[Ciel]

N-N,

I always question well established facts and find most written by people with certain agendas of their own memes. Once the meme is understood it is possible to filter the source.

I would say basic humility is to remind ourselves we live in pockets of life in a world of many souls in a state of progression towards truth. For this reason we need faith in our own capabilities and connections as positive value. To heal one must believe in the healing. To love is to know one is love-able.

Demons have a negative value until they are transformed to be a positive asset for the assertion of will to move mountains.

- c -

 

[Netti-Netti]

I would say basic humility is to remind ourselves we live in pockets of life in a world of many souls in a state of progression towards truth. For this reason we need faith in our own capabilities and connections as positive value. To heal one must believe in the healing. To love is to know one is love-able.

Genuine, faithful love reveals the true dignity and beauty of the person despite their flaws and sins. By the same token, a realistic respect of human nature is what gives hope of seeing the success of the progression by which humankind will grow toward Truth and of the transformation of Person into a likeness of the One.

Demons have a negative value until they are transformed to be a positive asset for the assertion of will to move mountains.

Well put. All I would add is that this is possible if we make make a point of not making the demons our friends. In effect, that could happen if we focus only on evidence of success and give into the temptation to self-adulation. It's easy to see how this could happen if we're afraid of fear, if we lose the ability to be self-critical, or if we lose our ability to foresee the consequences of our actions.

I think understand your emphasis. If we focus on the failures in history, this focus will blind us to our capacity for success and could cause us to lose heart.

Thank you for this meditation, Ciel.

 

[Netti-Netti]

Slight rewrite:

All I would add is that the ascent is possible if we make make a point of confronting the demons instead of following their leadings without questioning the direction they're taking us in. A mode of passive adaptation that interferes with real progres can easily become a way of life if we focus only on evidence of success, give into the temptation to self-adulation, become complascent, and lose sight of the possibilties for corruption and failure. One way this could happen is if we're afraid of fear and resort to denial.

I think I understand your emphasis, Ciel. If we focus on the failures in history, this focus could blind us to our capacity for success and could cause us to lose heart. On the other hand, we could become seriously misguided if we lose the ability to be self-critical or if we lose our ability to foresee the consequences of our actions.

Thanks.

 

[Ciel]

N-N,

Before the rewrite, before the introspection............

As Bob Dylan sang it loud........

"There's no success as failure.
And failures no success at all"

- c -

 

[Netti-Netti]

"If all we have to do is accept His forgiveness, then there's no point in doing tricks for G-d to get Him to be forthcoming with that which, by definition is always available - Grace. Even if the tricks are exceptually impressive and virtuous, it makes no difference. G-d loves you regardless. The issue becomes one of empowerment. "
But will you be happy??

According to the Bible, the fruits of the Holy Spirit include love, joy, and peace (see Galatians 5:22-25).

The Holy Spirit also provides hope that G-d will prevail even in less than ideal circustances (see Romans 15:13-14).

Another empowerment is the ability to accept our situation as an opportunity for real growth and real progress (see Thessalonians 5:16-18).

The empowerments would also include insight that our life decisions do matter as we grow toward the Love Divine, as we overcome distrust and alienation, forget bitterness and cynicism, and learn to live in genuine self-acceptance, with enough sell-respect to be able to accept the Blessings.

 

[seattlegal]

According to the Bible, the fruits of the Holy Spirit include love, joy, and peace (see Galatians 5:22-25).

The Holy Spirit also provides hope that G-d will prevail even in less than ideal circustances (see Romans 15:13-14).

Another empowerment is the ability to accept our situation as an opportunity for real growth and real progress (see Thessalonians 5:16-18).

The empowerments would also include insight that our life decisions do matter as we grow toward the Love Divine, as we overcome distrust and alienation, forget bitterness and cynicism, and learn to live in genuine self-acceptance, with enough sell-respect to be able to accept the Blessings.

1 Thess 5:16-1816 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.
​

Continues on the say:

1 Thess 19-20
19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not despise prophecies. 21 Test all things; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.​

Is there a well-defined line between "test all things" and "distrust and cynicism?" (Perhaps just a matter of perspective and tact--grace?)

 

[Netti-Netti]

1 Thess 19-20​

19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not despise prophecies. 21 Test all things; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.​

Is there a well-defined line between "test all things" and "distrust and cynicism?"

Not sure I totally understand the question, SG, but anyhoo this is my reaction: Bitterness and cynicism are a result of a failure to "Test all things" in light of Go-d's Word and a failure to give the Holy Spirit a chance to come through.
The most cynical and unhappy people on the planet are unable to see the world for what it is; they see things in light of their own desires, their personal disappointments, assumptions of narcissistic entitlement, irrational sense of having been cheated or deprived, sense of frustration, anger, and self-pity - all of which leads to a desire to take what is not given, which in turn only leads to more problems.

In short, they are living out of egoistic bias and thus they are continuously adding on to their own private dukkha, to interpersonal dukkha vis a vis people they are in contact with, and to the overall burden of the world by their faulty understanding of self-interest. At some level, their lack of faith and sense of hopelessness is actualy justified. Every action they take virtually guarantees unwholesome states if for no other reason than that their negative thinking and false hopes color the emotions and their self-propelled, heavy-handed approach tends to repell or destroy the things they're after.

Maybe to "Test all things" in light of G-d's Word is a form of Right Mindfulness and Right Intention, yes? A way of dealing with atttachment, craving, and clinging, yes?

 

[seattlegal]

Not sure I totally understand the question, SG, but anyhoo this is my reaction: Bitterness and cynicism are a result of a failure to "Test all things" in light of Go-d's Word and a failure to give the Holy Spirit a chance to come through.

There is such a thing as "grieving the Holy Spirit." (Ephesians 4:30)

The most cynical and unhappy people on the planet are unable to see the world for what it is; they see things in light of their own desires, their personal disappointments, assumptions of narcissistic entitlement, irrational sense of having been cheated or deprived, sense of frustration, anger, and self-pity - all of which leads to a desire to take what is not given, which in turn only leads to more problems.

In short, they are living out of egoistic bias and thus they are continuously adding on to their own private dukkha, to interpersonal dukkha vis a vis people they are in contact with, and to the overall burden of the world by their faulty understanding of self-interest. At some level, their lack of faith and sense of hopelessness is actualy justified. Every action they take virtually guarantees unwholesome states if for no other reason than that their negative thinking and false hopes color the emotions and their self-propelled, heavy-handed approach tends to repell or destroy the things they're after.

Kinda goes back to Dhammapada 1, huh?

Maybe to "Test all things" in light of G-d's Word is a form of Right Mindfulness and Right Intention, yes? A way of dealing with attachment, craving, and clinging, yes?

Perhaps.

 

[Dream]

unwillingness to accept human limitations combined with a willingness to substitute some relativized or corrupt versions of ideal possibilities.

Interesting observation about the Garden story, which I intend to remember. I also agree that cynicism is a general negative outlook -- not the same as 'testing all things' like in the scripture verse in question, yet I agree with Seattlegal's "Perhaps." From what I've seen, strictly right-sided thinking cannot do the job. I think you once said, NettiNetti, that you have to recognize the tragedy of living while maintaining a positive attitude, which sounds to me like a balance of left & right perspectives. At least that's the way I perceived it.