Strange Scripture: Matthew 27:51-53

[Dream]

In Christian theology the veil of the temple represents the object of God's judgment within us -- that which blinds us from seeing Him and which also bars us from life.

Anyway, this concept of being crucified with Christ reminds me of two mystical traditions of which I've recently become aware. These seek the 'Death of the ego', which does seem similar to being crucified with Christ. I guess it depends upon what they mean by 'Ego'.

 

[juantoo3]

So is Moses and Abraham walking around or were they not good enough to ‘wake up’……?

Such vitriol? Such sarcasm? Why would Moses be among these? Anyone familiar with the scripture knows he is already accounted for in the transfiguration:

Matthew 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
Matthew 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Matthew 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
***
St. Mark 9:2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
St. Mark 9:3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
St. Mark 9:4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
***
Luke 9:28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
Luke 9:29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
Luke 9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
Luke 9:31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

But let’s look this over in Mark 15:
Nope no saints walking around and funny; the quote of JC himself was different; did they go to a different play?
And then in Luke 23
Wow!
No raised saints as well, another ‘quote’ from JC completely different than the previous.
Can anyone shares why these three stories are all different? Were they there or were they not? How could everyone of these be different if this guy was supposed to be God? You would think they would listen a weeeeee bit better to someone who is dying for their sins but didn’t stay dead.
SO what happens now?

Strange you should choose to begin your selections with the mockery. Freudian slip showing?

Actually, I already addressed this earlier in the thread, post 11:

A quick little search by no means exhaustive, it seems Matthew is the only Gospel to mention this opening of the graves. However:

It would seem from these passages that all point to around the same time (Acts being up to 40 days after), that the writers were familiar with spirits, what we might call ghosts, and that is what they saw. Luke and John stress a Jesus in the flesh, while curiously in other places Jesus tells others such as Mary Magdelane not to touch him because he hasn't yet ascended.

Of course, I managed to do so with considerably less antagonist inflection...

 

[juantoo3]

Just imagine how bad lies and misrepresentation of faith have done to people, children, and the progress in the various cultures?

Present company excepted?

Of course.

 

[Netti-Netti]

We can examine the miraculous signs, we can speculate on the meanings, but we humans are still pretty insane when we crucify one such as Jesus.

On another forum someone said: "It is we who have killed Christ. We kill Christ everyday by our actions, inactions and above all, hypocrisies. Every one of us....We are the sinners who kill Christ time at every turn. Given a choice, we will scream 'Give us Barabas!' every time."

Jesus said of those who crucified him: "they know not what they do." They did not know his divinity when they crucified him. Here it is over 2000 years later. We humans should know better now. But Christians kill Christ every day with their sins of commission and their sins of omission. Even now the opposition and rebellion continue, even now the Word is ignored, and even now the blessings of the New Covenant are rejected along with the imperative to keep the L-rd's commandments.

 

[Bishadi]

Totally Beatnick, Bish!

Must be a compliment.

To beat the 'ignorace' of the faith with reality.

Strange you should choose to begin your selections with the mockery. Freudian slip showing?

each person is capable of mockery; when a magician tries to share that magic is real; laugh at them as it is only the ignorance of simple minds and complacent reasoning that allows magic to exist as the grounds of understanding.

'The world is turning; God did it!' Is just a crack up.

'Life began in a prebiotic soup: with God's immaculate conception'

Or how about the funniest:

"sure go ahead and sin; but be sure to praise the name of Jesus as when the rapture comes, you must carry your cross to be saved and have all your sins forgiven'


These lies of fibs are taught to children as they grow up (even to become presidents).......

Either be responsible and do what is good; or be extinct.

If you wish to debate with truth; then stand up and be heard but fail with integrity and you kill yourself in the first round.

 

[Dream]

On another forum someone said: "It is we who have killed Christ. We kill Christ everyday by our actions, inactions and above all, hypocrisies. Every one of us....

I've heard people say that and have wondered about it myself, however its an extreme thing to say. In Hebrews a similar (but not the same) phrase is part of an explanation of why some people will not come back to repentence. They are in a state of mind in which they cannot.

For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Every immature (new?) Christian deals with the question of 'Am I still in Christ?' and that is specifically what is being addressed in Hebrews. A Christian who has sinned is not necessarily someone who 'again crucifies Christ to themselves'. Sometimes people decide Jesus is bad ground (unprofitable) in their opinion, worthless and close to being cursed. This is what it means for someone to 'again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put him to open shame'. Believers, though they have sinful tendencies, believe the opposite concerning Jesus and say "So, let us go out to Him outside the camp, bearing His reproach. (Hebrews 13:13)" Summarizing the book, Hebrews says its readers must grow up and learn to tell right from wrong by practicing good works. He does not think they will fall away but warns them not to be like Esau or like the generation who refused God in the wilderness.

It isn't that people could not be forgiven, otherwise Hebrews would not say "For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.(Heb 4:15-16 ) At the same time, its also too harsh to say we're killing Christ every time we sin, which is a different thing altogether.

 

[seattlegal]

On another forum someone said: "It is we who have killed Christ. We kill Christ everyday by our actions, inactions and above all, hypocrisies. Every one of us....We are the sinners who kill Christ time at every turn. Given a choice, we will scream 'Give us Barabas!' every time."

Jesus said of those who crucified him: "they know not what they do." They did not know his divinity when they crucified him. Here it is over 2000 years later. We humans should know better now. But Christians kill Christ every day with their sins of commission and their sins of omission. Even now the opposition and rebellion continue, even now the Word is ignored, and even now the blessings of the New Covenant are rejected along with the imperative to keep the L-rd's commandments.

That's true. We were also forewarned: 2 Thess 2, Hebrews 6 (especially verse 6)

 

[seattlegal]

OK, you beat me to the posting, Dream.

 

[Bishadi]

OK, you beat me to the posting, Dream.

Not possible as the Dream is representing what preachers preach, not what the religion or pages represent; an ideology of faith rather than of truth.

Seek the truth with absolute integrity and these fools wash off the back, like dirt yet always maintain a little wisdom; 'find the lesson, in a car wreck'

there is something to learn from in each interaction; find it, and maintain your integrity with each bit of knowledge.

What Netti suggested; that each atrocity is an atrocity to God; is true. But who asked for forgiveness from them or the "us" for what they do? They think God is who to answer too, but he is separate from this world until death; is how the religions see it; NO responsibility for actions.

As conscious bodies of mass we can isolate ourselves from our environment, whether at home, work, nature or God (existence as in the total); and to impose an action to existence that is a loss to the common, is an evil imposed by choice;

like entropy; instead of a progression to support life but an action that will eventually equilibriate or fade to extinction.

what is horrid is to see how a lie, created years back, can adversely affect an enormous amount of people and all any have to do is see our global climate right now; Who claims responsibility? we each can judge and point at 'he did it' but who looks at themselves? especially in a socially accepting environment

In the west; the workings of capitalistic progression makes sense; but them whom make the choices maintaining the precepts of profit over compassion can adversely affect whole economies by increasing the division of classes and centralizing the implimentation of policy; eventually rulling all based on the culturally accepted mentality of capitalism; a western ideal democratically implimented based on the ignorance of what 'good and bad' are within the definitions of religious faiths.

Who claims responsibility?

The Dream is dreaming about miraculous corrections to our global situation; perhaps when chaos is released by the Israel conflict (how they got the title chosen ones)... as you see brother upon brother because of no food on the shelves of grocery stores; then you can see evil right in the eyes.

So what is the choice; be responsible for what you do? Or wait for magic and pray for what the complacent really have no clue about?

Truth is absolute; existence only operates ONE way!

 

[seattlegal]

Not possible as the Dream is representing what preachers preach, not what the religion or pages represent; an ideology of faith rather than of truth.

Seek the truth with absolute integrity and these fools wash off the back, like dirt yet always maintain a little wisdom; 'find the lesson, in a car wreck'

there is something to learn from in each interaction; find it, and maintain your integrity with each bit of knowledge.

What Netti suggested; that each atrocity is an atrocity to God; is true. But who asked for forgiveness from them or the "us" for what they do? They think God is who to answer too, but he is separate from this world until death; is how the religions see it; NO responsibility for actions.

As conscious bodies of mass we can isolate ourselves from our environment, whether at home, work, nature or God (existence as in the total); and to impose an action to existence that is a loss to the common, is an evil imposed by choice;

like entropy; instead of a progression to support life but an action that will eventually equilibriate or fade to extinction.

what is horrid is to see how a lie, created years back, can adversely affect an enormous amount of people and all any have to do is see our global climate right now; Who claims responsibility? we each can judge and point at 'he did it' but who looks at themselves? especially in a socially accepting environment

In the west; the workings of capitalistic progression makes sense; but them whom make the choices maintaining the precepts of profit over compassion can adversely affect whole economies by increasing the division of classes and centralizing the implimentation of policy; eventually rulling all based on the culturally accepted mentality of capitalism; a western ideal democratically implimented based on the ignorance of what 'good and bad' are within the definitions of religious faiths.

Who claims responsibility?

The Dream is dreaming about miraculous corrections to our global situation; perhaps when chaos is released by the Israel conflict (how they got the title chosen ones)... as you see brother upon brother because of no food on the shelves of grocery stores; then you can see evil right in the eyes.

So what is the choice; be responsible for what you do? Or wait for magic and pray for what the complacent really have no clue about?

Question: What does the above rant have to do with Matthew 27:51-53?

Truth is absolute; existence only operates ONE way!

The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth.

*and*

There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true.

~Niels Bohr​

 

[Netti-Netti]

What Netti suggested; that each atrocity is an atrocity to God; is true. But who asked for forgiveness from them or the "us" for what they do? They think God is who to answer too, but he is separate from this world until death; is how the religions see it; NO responsibility for actions.

Bishadi, I think you are tracking me accurately.

The text reads - "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." ~John 1:29 In effect, this has become "... which removes responsibility for the world's sins."

The expectation of forgiveness removes incentive to take need for personal discipline seriously. The hope for salvation in effect becomes part of the problem.

If you know you're going to be forgiven, that means you can keep right on sinning. The expectation of forgiveness weakens the pledge of conscience. The hell fire and brimstone preachers knew this and tried to light a fire under people.

 

[Dream]

The text reads - "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." ~John 1:29 In effect, this has become "... which removes responsibility for the world's sins."

The expectation of forgiveness removes incentive to take need for personal discipline seriously. The hope for salvation in effect becomes part of the problem.

If you know you're going to be forgiven, that means you can keep right on sinning. The expectation of forgiveness weakens the pledge of conscience.

This isn't what these verses are giving to people. Life is a growing process, and we need to know that there is some flexibility. There can be no blank check; but some people will try to write themselves one no matter how the scripture is phrased. The example of expectations of forgiveness actually comes from marriage. Scripture teaches a wife needs to know that her husband will forgive her and accept her or the relationship's not healthy, and the principle of this extends to our relationship with life, with God, and with each other. The lamb that 'Takes away the sins of the world' is not talking about what you think it is, but why should I go into it? I have talked about it elsewhere and my opinion doesn't matter.

 

[seattlegal]

Bishadi, I think you are tracking me accurately.

The text reads - "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." ~John 1:29 In effect, this has become "... which removes responsibility for the world's sins."

The expectation of forgiveness removes incentive to take need for personal discipline seriously. The hope for salvation in effect becomes part of the problem.

If you know you're going to be forgiven, that means you can keep right on sinning. The expectation of forgiveness weakens the pledge of conscience. The hell fire and brimstone preachers knew this and tried to light a fire under people.

If you don't take your personal discipline seriously, will you be really happy, or will you only be under the illusion of being happy? Will the fruit of spirit, joy, truly manifest? How about the other fruits of the spirit?

 

[Bishadi]

Bishadi, I think you are tracking me accurately.

No I appreciated the one true comment.

The text reads - "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." ~John 1:29 In effect, this has become "... which removes responsibility for the world's sins."

Name one sin on earth that was ever undone. EVER!

The expectation of forgiveness removes incentive to take need for personal discipline seriously. The hope for salvation in effect becomes part of the problem.

That is correct; that hope is what allows people to fib and have no responsibility. But when truth unfold, guess who will be the judges; 'we the people' ...... your brothers and sisters!

If you know you're going to be forgiven, that means you can keep right on sinning. The expectation of forgiveness weakens the pledge of conscience. The hell fire and brimstone preachers knew this and tried to light a fire under people.

And the first choice any person can make with zero approval and assistence is honesty.

Was women created from man? No!

To be pure with honesty when observing items of faith is to begin at stage ONE. Be pure with all knowledge understood and find what is true with absolute integrity before ever trying to convey a belief as true.

This is the best place to start for real seekers of knowledge.

 

[Bishadi]

The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth.​

*and*​

There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true.​

~Niels Bohr​

or better still

"virtue was the most valuable of all possessions; the ideal life was spent in search of the Good. Truth lies beneath the shadows of existence, and that it is the job of the philosopher to show the rest how little they really know."

Socrates


“To live in accordance with the essence of things, as Socrates said, is the premise of the moral life. One cannot live in peace of mind without at the same time being in harmony with reality.” Also, “The premises of a moral life is based on a covenant with reality.” “No life is authentic that is in conflict with the order of the universe.”

And not knowing the order of the universe constitutes a serious handicap in living a moral life!


Note a real fan of Neil; Manhatten project

They took a set of knowledge (einstein's math) and abused it.

And the funny part is that even as they built such monsters, the math is still incorrect for defining reality (life).

 

[juantoo3]

“No life is authentic that is in conflict with the order of the universe.” [/FONT][/SIZE]

And not knowing the order of the universe constitutes a serious handicap in living a moral life!
Note a real fan of Neil; Manhatten project

They took a set of knowledge (einstein's math) and abused it.

And the funny part is that even as they built such monsters, the math is still incorrect for defining reality (life). [/COLOR]

Socrates is your guide and master then? The Socratic method?

Would this understanding of the Manhatten Project not serve you better as an illustration of the limits of human knowledge of the order of the universe? Especially when it comes to presumptive understanding of others' reality?

 

[mee]

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Uhhh, I think that is the part ya missed.
They were walking into the city.​

yes those who witnessed the graves being opened by the earthquake went off to report it

 

[mee]

Source please...

the bible of cause as always