Origins and the Theist

[path_of_one]

Way to cut to the chase, Chris. LOL I must confess I don't know, maybe Dondi will have some ideas. I tend to think none of it is necessary as a setup, but that's my usual simplicity. I tend to think Christ=grace of God=salvation. Why do we need salvation/deliverance? Because we sin.

Genesis isn't really necessary for me to look around and notice that I and (seemingly) everyone else sins. And to think, then, to unite with a holy Divine Being, I need something to get from point A to point B- the forgiveness of that Divine Being for my screw-ups. So enters Christ in the form of Jesus.

I dunno. Guess I'm bad at complex doctrine.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Well, Dondi was saying that you need to have an edenic state for man to fall from in order to set up Salvation. But what if that state is psychological? What if the story is an allegory about how human consciousness developed? Does that goof anything up theologically? I don't think that it does. The origin and function of sin, even Original Sin, in the story doesn't really change. It's still about consciousness and the nature of choice. There still needs to be an Adversary to Christ, but that adversary can be an internal, inherent weakness which is a by-product of having learned the difference between good and evil, rather than an evil demi-god like the literal Satan. And with the creation cosmology freed up to be strictly metaphysical we don't have to defend a scientifically untenable theory of ultimate origins.

Chris

 

[lunamoth]

What if the story is an allegory about how human consciousness developed? Does that goof anything up theologically? I don't think that it does. The origin and function of sin, even Original Sin, in the story doesn't really change. It's still about consciousness and the nature of choice. There still needs to be an Adversary to Christ, but that adversary can be an internal, inherent weakness which is a by-product of having learned the difference between good and evil, rather than an evil demi-god like the literal Satan. And with the creation cosmology freed up to be strictly metaphysical we don't have to defend a scientifically untenable theory of ultimate origins.

Chris

I can agree with that Chris, but I just don't think it's the only way to see it. I think there can be multiple layers of meaning. The 'payment for original sin' layer speaks to some people, but to me it never made sense.

I've mentioned the layer that speaks to me...the fall is alienation and yes, that alienation comes from the nature of choice and, as I see it, free will.

So, the Fall is separation and alienation. Reconciliation comes through love, the ultimate love being Christ on the cross. In a way that is God saying He will bear the cost of our sins...even as we go on sinning.

I find a lot of meaning in 'the way of the cross,' dying to self and rising with Christ. I accept that a metaphysical transformation is involved.

 

[lunamoth]

Well, Dondi was saying that you need to have an edenic state for man to fall from in order to set up Salvation.

Chris

About this. Elsewhere I had an interesting discussion about the relationship between the Garden and the Kingdom. One seems like the origin, the other the goal, but are they they same 'place.'

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

About this. Elsewhere I had an interesting discussion about the relationship between the Garden and the Kingdom. One seems like the origin, the other the goal, but are they they same 'place.'

I think, actually, that the Fall is the tipping point between the Garden and the Kingdom in the evolution of our consciousness. From there we either struggle toward the light or tread water in various ways. So in that sense I'd say that I see the canoe as the Garden, you're old man tossing your butt out for a swimmin' lesson as God, and the island in the distance as the Kingdom.

Chris

 

[lunamoth]

I think, actually, that the Fall is the tipping point between the Garden and the Kingdom in the evolution of our consciousness. From there we either struggle toward the light or tread water in various ways. So in that sense I'd say that I see the canoe as the Garden, you're old man tossing your butt out for a swimmin' lesson as God, and the island in the distance as the Kingdom.

Chris

LOL! You have a great way with metaphors Chris. I see it similarly, but I was conversing with a friend who emphatically holds that they are the same, and the same as the mystical 'union' in which there is no longer self, and so there is "no-thing."

But, I see the Garden as a sort of primitive state, and we say it was before we lost our innocence which is the same as realizing that I can make choices that benefit myself, which could equate with self-consciousness. And yeah, by the time you reach the Kingdom-island, hopefully you've learned or changed and can see the mistakes, remember who you were, who you are, who you love.

If it all merges into oneness then it's the same a just turning the lights out. If it's not the same as just turning the lights out...well I'm just as happy with my thoughts about it as anyone elses.

It comes down to whether you think it's all just psychology, or if you're open to there being Something More.

 

[lunamoth]

Chris, do you get any milage out of the idea that human pride and hubris is a problem. I think that's another important lesson of the Fall.

 

[lunamoth]

I'm not answering for Luna (really curious about her input, actually) but figured I'd throw out that from my understanding, parts of Genesis (such as chapters 1 and 2) are quite ancient in oral tradition and this is actually why you get inconsistencies in the text...

Enjoying your beautiful posts as always Path o' One. What part of my musings are you curious about? Haha! We're so often on the same page I wonder what you would not already know about me!

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

I think that we should be very careful about the terms under which we accept a sense of inherent personal guilt, and even more careful about collective guilt. There are any number of entities who would like us to surrender elements of our ego in order to render us complacent and subservient. Pride and hubris are traits of immaturity. They represent the kinds of things that leave one exposed to being dragged around by the nose until one smartens up.

Chris

 

[lunamoth]

I think that we should be very careful about the terms under which we accept a sense of inherent personal guilt, and even more careful about collective guilt. There are any number of entities who would like us to surrender elements of our ego in order to render us complacent and subservient. Pride and hubris are traits of immaturity. They represent the kinds of things that leave one exposed to being dragged around by the nose until one smartens up.

Chris

I can't argue with any of that. But immaturity more or less equates with self-centeredness and insecurity, traits that I'd say are the cause of pride and hubris. Immature is actually another good way to look at humanity in general. Wouldn't you say that a lot of our problems stem from immaturity, ego, an insecurity (don't want to share), hubris (taking what does not belong to me).

Sounds like everything I need to know I learned in kindergarten, but I think there's some truth in that homily.

 

[path_of_one]

Enjoying your beautiful posts as always Path o' One. What part of my musings are you curious about? Haha! We're so often on the same page I wonder what you would not already know about me!

LOL- well, you never know! I'm almost sure you're better well read than I am in textual history hypotheses (most of what I've read on the matter was suggested over the years by you on the forums). I learn stuff from people here all the time... I just happen to learn from AND agree with you at the same time.

But, yes, it seems that somehow we get on the same wavelength, so to speak... and generally I just nod as I read.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

I can't argue with any of that. But immaturity more or less equates with self-centeredness and insecurity, traits that I'd say are the cause of pride and hubris. Immature is actually another good way to look at humanity in general. Wouldn't you say that a lot of our problems stem from immaturity, ego, an insecurity (don't want to share), hubris (taking what does not belong to me).

Sounds like everything I need to know I learned in kindergarten, but I think there's some truth in that homily.

I think that it's a matter of a sort of sin of impatient presumption. The idea that expedience creates it's own morality. If you think about the sin of Cain, of Achan, Saul, Moses striking the rock, David in various ways...it's not just arrogance, presumption, hubris, etc., it seems more about an impatient willingness to cut corners- to cheat and then use the logic of pragmatism to justify it after the fact.

Chris

 

[lunamoth]

I think that it's a matter of a sort of sin of impatient presumption. The idea that expedience creates it's own morality. If you think about the sin of Cain, of Achan, Saul, Moses striking the rock, David in various ways...it's not just arrogance, presumption, hubris, etc., it seems more about an impatient willingness to cut corners- to cheat and then use the logic of pragmatism to justify it after the fact.

Chris

Well, at first I was going to outright agree with that, but upon further reflection I'm not so sure. Yes, it is impatient...and it is lack of faith. I don't think the sin of Cain was cheating...it was lack of trust in God. The story does not say why Abel's offering was preferred, although we often assume that Cain's offereing was somehow not good enough.

Abraham having Isaac by Sarah's handmaid, a perfect example of taking things into our own hands when God has already made his promise. We want to do things our way, when the lesson of the Bible is that without God none of it would have happened. Each story is forced to a necessary act of God for history to continue.

Anyway, it's a tangent. Just kind of interesting.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Anyway, it's a tangent. Just kind of interesting.

Yeah, ... or not.

Chris

 

[lunamoth]

Yeah, ... or not.

Chris

Ok, I can take a hint.

 

[Dondi]

Well, Dondi was saying that you need to have an edenic state for man to fall from in order to set up Salvation. But what if that state is psychological? What if the story is an allegory about how human consciousness developed? Does that goof anything up theologically? I don't think that it does. The origin and function of sin, even Original Sin, in the story doesn't really change. It's still about consciousness and the nature of choice. There still needs to be an Adversary to Christ, but that adversary can be an internal, inherent weakness which is a by-product of having learned the difference between good and evil, rather than an evil demi-god like the literal Satan. And with the creation cosmology freed up to be strictly metaphysical we don't have to defend a scientifically untenable theory of ultimate origins.

Chris

You must have missed my post here:

Post #27

As I wrote that, I was rather thinking out loud. It's pretty much what you are saying here. And at the end of that post I said :

Now I see how a Edenic "Paradise" isn't necessary to the story. The Fall could just be that Man is banned from going back to his mere instincts. He's going to have to learn to love.

 

[Dondi]

There is a contemporary praise song that goes...

O Lord, you're beautiful
Your face is all I seek
And when Your eyes
Are on this child
Your grace abounds to me

Instead of pondering on if God has a face and eyes... I just let the music and the poetry pull me into a connection with God. God is alive with me, and in me... I am filled with grace, I am alive with God's beauty.

By the late great Keith Green.

I understand fully where you are coming from. I indeed feel a spiritual connection with the text. There are times when I see a verse that just resonates with me at that moment, though I must have read the same verse dozens of times previously, yet it hits me differently that time.

I tend to think if we (as Christians- as the Body of Christ) focused more on our common experience of a relationship with Christ, and on doing the things Christ did (being Christ for others- alleviating poverty, ministering to criminals, healing, etc.), that we wouldn't have so many splits and divisions. If we could just trust that in time, God would take care of our differences, but our role is to lift each other up each day to God... That isn't a statement about you, me, or even the topic (sorry )- but my ponderings just led me to this...

I'm in total agreement with you about this, especially in the past several years of my spiritual growth I've seen those divisions blur in my own eyes quite a bit.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

You must have missed my post here:

Post #27

As I wrote that, I was rather thinking out loud. It's pretty much what you are saying here. And at the end of that post I said :

Oh, OK. Sorry about that then.

Chris

 

[Dondi]

I'm not arguing, just curious. Why? Why must there be a demarkation? Why would the Spirit be everywhere, but not in us? What, then, is it in us that causes us to reach out to God in the first place, to surrender to Christ... if it is not the Spirit Itself?

The scriptures are replete with verses that indicate that God's Spirit withdraws from man when we are disobedient:

"And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years." - Genesis 6:3

"Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit." - Psalm 51:11-12

I am not sure that God must withdraw from the unholy because He is holy. Isn't that what Christ is for? That Christ, embodied by Jesus, was perfectly holy and yet could minister to the unholy. That He could, on the cross, ask for forgiveness for the sinners around Him.

We can quench the Spirit according to I Thess. 5:19. It is our fleshly self that runs contrary to the Spirit of God:

"For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law." - Galatians 5:17-18

But God will manifest His Spirit when we dwell in Him:

"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him." - John 14:21

Yes, Christ forgives us for sin, but we must be willing to abide in Him, or we will find ourselves in a sorry state. There are times when I know that I'm being obedient to God and know His Presence is operating. My attitude is different, I see people with the eyes of love and can properly minister toward them. But when I become sinful, that seems to drain away, and I find myself rather ineffective until I get things right with God again.

Jesus kept in constant pray. Why? Because He relied on the power of the Holy Spirit to sustain Him. He communed with his Father early in the morning and spent hours alone on mountaintops to gather strength. Then He was in a position to minister to the people. When the woman with the issue of blood touched the hem of His garment, He sensed power going out of Him, but He didn't know who touched Him. That was the power of the Holy Spirit. It operated in conjucntion with Christ as He abided with the Father. And as our example, we need to abide in that same Spirit if we are to live accordingly.

Those torture souls you speak of, they are in that state becuase they haven't yielded to God. They are led by their own flesh, their own desires. I know that many they started out decent, but over time their lives will just deteriorate. They are on a downward spiral. They live for their addictions. Where is their hope? If there was a spark of God in them, wouldn't the Spirit ignite that hope in them. But they are keeping the Spirit away for they refuse to yield.

But in eternity, this is not so. The perpetrator cannot last. Everyone will bow to Christ one day....But if God is outside this, then all people already are and always were reconciled to Him through the redemptive power of Christ.

I find it difficult to imagine that God will force us to be reconciled to Him against our will. It says in Phil. 2:10, "...every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;" which indicates to be that there will be those who still resist God, but will still have to acknowledge that He is Lord, even over the wicked.

But if God is learning from us, then how is God omniscient and all-powerful? And why would He only learn the bad stuff? People do tons of beautiful and loving things- is He learning something about goodness?

I have no answers on this... but I find it confusing how God can only be the good stuff, and be learning about the bad stuff through us, yet He is omniscient and created everything. Then, wouldn't He know about evil from the beginning and have created it, even if only the conditions that would cause it to flourish? If it didn't come from something God created, then where did it come from and how did it get there originally? It all gets very confusing to me and gets me thinking in circles, which is why I typically leave these types of origins of evil questions alone.

Yes, God is all-powerful and all-knowing, but there is a different kind of knowing that is experiential, like that between lovers, or parent and child, or friends. I don't think God just "know" this no matter how eternal or omnisicent He is. You can't get this sort of thing through 'book knowledge'.

 

[path_of_one]

The scriptures are replete with verses that indicate that God's Spirit withdraws from man when we are disobedient:

"And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years." - Genesis 6:3

"Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit." - Psalm 51:11-12

I think these verses also show, though, that the Spirit is with us from the beginning. I don't really know the answer. It never clearly says that the Spirit has departed from a person, has it? For example, the first verse puts this at some point in the future and the Psalm is an expression of the singer's pleading for this not to occur. But neither show that has occurred.

It gets confusing to me because the experiential evidence points to even very deranged people coming to an awareness of the Spirit, generally through internal dialogue, indicating an inner voice or light of God. There are also cases of people in profound despaire and suicidal who have sudden experiences of inner peace, inner light, etc. It seems more like people run away from what is inside them than that this comes from the outside, as little children who do not have any sort of doctrine or theology yet often have experiences of the Spirit of God.

I have no easy answers, just some ideas based from scripture (which isn't always consistent or clear) and my observations and experiences (which also aren't always consistent or clear).

We can quench the Spirit according to I Thess. 5:19. It is our fleshly self that runs contrary to the Spirit of God:

"For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law." - Galatians 5:17-18

To be honest, I don't totally trust this as authentic since it seems rather gnostic to me, but even given its authenticity I do not find that it is counter-intuitive to an inner Spirit or light. It just says that our flesh (which I will interpret as our self-centeredness, to get away from the gnostic influence) runs counter to the Spirit. It doesn't say that the Spirit is not in us, but rather that we must choose to be led by the Spirit and not the flesh.

But God will manifest His Spirit when we dwell in Him:

"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him." - John 14:21

But how do we keep the commandements and love God without the grace of God? It's a catch-22. If God is not in us at all, then what is it in us that seeks God, loves Him, and obeys Him? Do we do these things of our own accord? Personally, I don't think I can even wake up and breathe without the grace of God... the more I embrace the grace of God and am thankful and allow it to flow through me, the more I receive it.

This is going way off topic... sorry. But it might be easiest to just post a relevant link. This is George Fox's "Christ: The Light of the World."

http://conservativequakers.com/christ_the_light_of_the_world.pdf

Yes, Christ forgives us for sin, but we must be willing to abide in Him, or we will find ourselves in a sorry state. There are times when I know that I'm being obedient to God and know His Presence is operating. My attitude is different, I see people with the eyes of love and can properly minister toward them. But when I become sinful, that seems to drain away, and I find myself rather ineffective until I get things right with God again.

I totally agree. I just think that God is in each of us. But we can still get out of sync with God. We know from modern psychology that we can even get out of sync with our own feelings! How much more is it possible to turn away from that part of ourselves, the Light of God, that bares all our weaknesses? The light that is loving, warm, and comforting is also the fire that refines us. And so it is not comfortable or easy, though it is transforming, to embrace the Spirit within and die to ourselves.

Jesus kept in constant pray. Why? Because He relied on the power of the Holy Spirit to sustain Him. He communed with his Father early in the morning and spent hours alone on mountaintops to gather strength. Then He was in a position to minister to the people. When the woman with the issue of blood touched the hem of His garment, He sensed power going out of Him, but He didn't know who touched Him. That was the power of the Holy Spirit. It operated in conjucntion with Christ as He abided with the Father. And as our example, we need to abide in that same Spirit if we are to live accordingly.

I completely agree. Jesus embodied the Spirit of God without measure. He is the perfect example of what we ought to strive for- that we should pour out ourselves so that we can become vessels for the Spirit.

When I think about the moments I am fully in the Spirit, at those times, I come very close to perfection. I live for the moment. I am grateful. I can feel the joy, love, and peace of God flow through me and out into the world. I desire nothing for myself, but only to show the love and grace of God to others. I desire to serve. I think the point of walking that narrow path is to get these moments closer and closer to each other, so that the times that I am me, with all my desires and worries and imperfections, becomes smaller and the time I am a vessel for God to work in the world becomes bigger.

I've a long way to go, but I'm hopeful.

Those torture souls you speak of, they are in that state becuase they haven't yielded to God. They are led by their own flesh, their own desires. I know that many they started out decent, but over time their lives will just deteriorate. They are on a downward spiral. They live for their addictions.

I agree. Except that I mostly think people live by their fears, not their desires. Or maybe the two are interconnected. But it seems that many/most sins are linked to fear, which is linked to attachment to self.

Where is their hope? If there was a spark of God in them, wouldn't the Spirit ignite that hope in them. But they are keeping the Spirit away for they refuse to yield.

This doesn't mean the Spirit is not in them, but that they are not listening or seeing. People do little things all the time that indicate this is how they think. For example, someone will eat something bad for them (say, a Big Mac), saying all the while "I shouldn't do this. I know it is so bad for me." So who is the person inside them that they are ignoring that is trying to tell them what is healthy, what is the best choice? That we are of two minds means that there is an alternative, and I think that alternative is the inner light of God, which would guide us to the best, healthiest, and most loving choices in all things if we would but listen.

I find it difficult to imagine that God will force us to be reconciled to Him against our will.

I don't think we are. I think it is a matter of time and we all will be reconciled to Him, in our free will. Some just take longer about doing it than others.

Yes, God is all-powerful and all-knowing, but there is a different kind of knowing that is experiential, like that between lovers, or parent and child, or friends. I don't think God just "know" this no matter how eternal or omnisicent He is. You can't get this sort of thing through 'book knowledge'.

That's an interesting viewpoint. I'll have to think about that, as I've never pondered God having different types of knowledge as we do.