Origins and the Theist

[Dondi]

It gets confusing to me because the experiential evidence points to even very deranged people coming to an awareness of the Spirit, generally through internal dialogue, indicating an inner voice or light of God.

This gets a bit tricky though, because you have people like this saying God told them to drown their children so they won't have to bear living in this evil world.

On the other hand, I heard of one story of a minister who visited an asylum and was in the section where most of the patients were in their own separate world, and he puzzled how he could reach them. So he started singing 'Jesus Loves Me'. At first nothing happened, but as he continued to sing it over and over, one by one they started joining in until the whole ward was singing 'Jesus Loves Me' with joy on their faces.

There are also cases of people in profound despaire and suicidal who have sudden experiences of inner peace, inner light, etc. It seems more like people run away from what is inside them than that this comes from the outside, as little children who do not have any sort of doctrine or theology yet often have experiences of the Spirit of God.

Yet some suicidals do not, and meet unfortunate ends. It would be interesting to know how many of those who did hear the voice of God had people praying for them. I've heard of stories of how some have stopped short of doing themselves in because some force or incident stopped them, and come to find out someone had been praying for them at the time.

To be honest, I don't totally trust this as authentic since it seems rather gnostic to me, but even given its authenticity I do not find that it is counter-intuitive to an inner Spirit or light. It just says that our flesh (which I will interpret as our self-centeredness, to get away from the gnostic influence) runs counter to the Spirit. It doesn't say that the Spirit is not in us, but rather that we must choose to be led by the Spirit and not the flesh.

Yeah, I'm not speaking in gnostic terms either, I'm more in line with you on this one.

But how do we keep the commandements and love God without the grace of God? It's a catch-22. If God is not in us at all, then what is it in us that seeks God, loves Him, and obeys Him? Do we do these things of our own accord? Personally, I don't think I can even wake up and breathe without the grace of God... the more I embrace the grace of God and am thankful and allow it to flow through me, the more I receive it.

The aforementioned prayers of others. Some grandma praying for their wayward grandson for years and years. I believe the Spirit takes an active part in answering those prayers. And there may be some gentle prodding on the part of the Spirit to touch the heart of the grandson. Still, it's the grandson's free will to choose.

And really, our relationship with God is mutual thing. The more we learn to abide, the stronger in the Spirit we can become. We grow in the grace of God. It's not an instant magical thing. It's aligning ourselves up with Him. Sometimes, we will find ourselves stuck at a certain point God won't allow us to advance until we learn what we need to learn, or modify our behavior in some way, or let go of something.

I completely agree. Jesus embodied the Spirit of God without measure. He is the perfect example of what we ought to strive for- that we should pour out ourselves so that we can become vessels for the Spirit.

When I think about the moments I am fully in the Spirit, at those times, I come very close to perfection. I live for the moment. I am grateful. I can feel the joy, love, and peace of God flow through me and out into the world. I desire nothing for myself, but only to show the love and grace of God to others. I desire to serve. I think the point of walking that narrow path is to get these moments closer and closer to each other, so that the times that I am me, with all my desires and worries and imperfections, becomes smaller and the time I am a vessel for God to work in the world becomes bigger.

I've a long way to go, but I'm hopeful.

I could have written these words, path.

This doesn't mean the Spirit is not in them, but that they are not listening or seeing. People do little things all the time that indicate this is how they think. For example, someone will eat something bad for them (say, a Big Mac), saying all the while "I shouldn't do this. I know it is so bad for me." So who is the person inside them that they are ignoring that is trying to tell them what is healthy, what is the best choice? That we are of two minds means that there is an alternative, and I think that alternative is the inner light of God, which would guide us to the best, healthiest, and most loving choices in all things if we would but listen.

I think there is a voice of 'natural conscience'. It is the 'work of the law in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness' (Romans 2:15). Something they have picked up from their upbringing, perhaps from their parent values. Or something they learned from their culture. But I think that can only go so far.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God" - I Cor 2:14

Something has to happen for the Spirit of God to take effect.

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." - II Cor. 5:17

There has to be a joining of the Spirit of God with our spirit. A baptism in His Spirit (and I'm not talking about that speaking in tongues nonsense). When did Christ begin His ministry? At His baptism, when the Spirit of God symbolically came down upon Him at His baptism. He was immediately swept away in the wilderness where He was tested, then he started preaching the kingdom of God. I'm not advocating water baptism, which is one symbolic of the immersion of the Spirit when one is 'born again' into a new creature. I don't know when that can happen, I know some experience it at a very early age. (I think when we are born, we in our innocence are close to God (out of the mouth of babes), it's when we become conscious of sin (or more exact, moral choices) that we lose that 'something' and need to gain it back (maybe that's our Fall).

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Before I forget I wanted to say to Luna that I thought your ideas about the Fall were just as good as mine, and I do think that the Garden and the Kingdom are the same in the way a musical note and the same note at the next octave are the "same." Anyway, it's always just about ideas to me.

Chris

 

[lunamoth]

Before I forget I wanted to say to Luna that I thought your ideas about the Fall were just as good as mine, and I do think that the Garden and the Kingdom are the same in the way a musical note and the same note at the next octave are the "same." Anyway, it's always just about ideas to me.

Chris

I didn't think you were arguing. I just thought you were bored.

 

[path_of_one]

This gets a bit tricky though, because you have people like this saying God told them to drown their children so they won't have to bear living in this evil world.

I think that we have a pretty clear litmus test for the voice of God, though. Jesus made it pretty clear what God would have us do, and what we'd hear from God.

Yet some suicidals do not, and meet unfortunate ends. It would be interesting to know how many of those who did hear the voice of God had people praying for them. I've heard of stories of how some have stopped short of doing themselves in because some force or incident stopped them, and come to find out someone had been praying for them at the time.

That begs more questions for me, though. It seems problematic to me that God would only save those who had people praying for them. I end up thinking- so those who are alienated, lonely, without family and friends, marginalized- those people don't deserve God saving them due to lack of others' prayers? I mean, God knows everything about everyone. So why would it work like that? Seems... unjust to me. I don't know. I think it's more about our willingness to listen and suffer for the sake of others than it is about other people's prayers. If you're suicidal, it seems you'd have to be willing to continue suffering (at least for a while, while recovering from depression) for the sake of others (the person who would find you, your family, etc.). Suicide is a form of selfishness. I don't know, but I would say that- if forced into a position- that God talks to all suicidal people but, like all of us, some choose not to listen.

Yeah, I'm not speaking in gnostic terms either, I'm more in line with you on this one.

Nifty. I try to steer clear of the material vs. spirit thing. I don't think they are opposed.

The aforementioned prayers of others.

So God only helps people come to salvation who have other people praying for them? That doesn't seem very fair, since some people aren't born into loving families. It seems to me that God would offer His Light directly to all people in all places and times, so that no one has the excuse that they didn't have people praying for them.

I get uncomfortable with intercessory prayer anyway... that might be a topic for another thread. Suffice it to say that I've seen intercessory prayer and I've seen Pagan magical ritual. And it doesn't seem all that different in either its content or its results.

I don't like to think of the Spirit as some power of God that is at our beck and call. I rather like to think of the Spirit as the part of God that reaches out to us all, in accord with where we're at in life and our capacity to withstand it, drawing us toward Christ and the Father.

And really, our relationship with God is mutual thing. The more we learn to abide, the stronger in the Spirit we can become. We grow in the grace of God. It's not an instant magical thing. It's aligning ourselves up with Him. Sometimes, we will find ourselves stuck at a certain point God won't allow us to advance until we learn what we need to learn, or modify our behavior in some way, or let go of something.

I agree, and yet in some people the transformation seems nearly instantaneous. You see the same thing among Buddhists with enlightenment. For some, it seems a gradual process. For others, a sudden moment, a flash of insight which, if continually cultivated from that point forward, remains. I think we are each given a measure of the Light of God, and the more we cultivate it and obey it and allow it to transform us, the more is given.

I could have written these words, path.

I think there is a voice of 'natural conscience'. It is the 'work of the law in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness' (Romans 2:15). Something they have picked up from their upbringing, perhaps from their parent values. Or something they learned from their culture. But I think that can only go so far.

I think we have the law written on our hearts, and this if from God. I think we then get layers of stuff from our culture, which may or may not be in accord with God-given conscience.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God" - I Cor 2:14

Something has to happen for the Spirit of God to take effect.

To be totally honest, I'm not sure about this verse. I don't know if Paul means something different than I think he does, and it is a matter of misunderstanding, or if I just don't agree with Paul (wouldn't be the first time). I guess I wonder what the natural man is, and what he has to do to receive the Spirit of God... Because there's a whole lot of non-Christians out there who are so obviously in the Spirit, according to NT's own description of the fruits of the Spirit. So where did it come from in their lives?

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." - II Cor. 5:17

There has to be a joining of the Spirit of God with our spirit. A baptism in His Spirit (and I'm not talking about that speaking in tongues nonsense). When did Christ begin His ministry? At His baptism, when the Spirit of God symbolically came down upon Him at His baptism.

I believe we are baptized in the Spirit (I'm not talking about tongues either), in our interior, and at that moment we recognize Christ in us. I think the Spirit is always there, but if we don't choose to recognize it, we don't move out of all the negative stuff into the love, joy, and peace of God.

I don't know when that can happen, I know some experience it at a very early age. (I think when we are born, we in our innocence are close to God (out of the mouth of babes), it's when we become conscious of sin (or more exact, moral choices) that we lose that 'something' and need to gain it back (maybe that's our Fall).

I believe it is possible to raise a child to be conscious of moral action at a very young age, and so transition relatively seamlessly from innocence to life in the Spirit. I was conscious of justice and mercy by the time I was about two. I think people have it in them from the start, but most children are treated like cute morons who have no real capacity for spirituality and moral action on their own.

This doesn't mean that toddlers can learn the complex sociocultural rules we have about everything, but they can learn the basics of listening to the Spirit. They can learn fairly rapidly to have compassion.

I don't know. Maybe I was a very odd child and I certainly had a very odd upbringing.

I guess what I wonder is that if the Spirit is not in us, then where it comes from and why it doesn't seem to come to some people at all. Rather than thinking God plays favorites or that it is all sort of mechanical (that prayers of others bring the Spirit to someone, for example), I think God is just always there from the start for everyone. As each of us matures at our own rate of growth, we choose whether or not to be open to that part of us that is of and from God.

Maybe our positions on this are actually more similar than it seems, but we just conceptualize it differently. I'm not sure.

 

[Dondi]

I think that we have a pretty clear litmus test for the voice of God, though. Jesus made it pretty clear what God would have us do, and what we'd hear from God.

I must have missed that Sunday School lesson. What litmus test are you referring to?

That begs more questions for me, though. It seems problematic to me that God would only save those who had people praying for them. I end up thinking- so those who are alienated, lonely, without family and friends, marginalized- those people don't deserve God saving them due to lack of others' prayers?

So God only helps people come to salvation who have other people praying for them? That doesn't seem very fair, since some people aren't born into loving families. It seems to me that God would offer His Light directly to all people in all places and times, so that no one has the excuse that they didn't have people praying for them.

I'm not saying that God only saves those who have people praying for them. Again, like you said, the Spirit of God may speak to their hearts and they just don't listen. It's definitely an individual choice, don't get me wrong.

Let me put it this way. I believe that God generally allows the natural course of events to happen. When someone asked Jesus about certain Galileans whom Pilate had mixed their blood with the sacrifices, His reply was,

"Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

In otherwords, bad things are going to happen, regardless if one is righteous or not (Which is why I think it's bunk when people try to pin 9/11 on the moral decay of the US).

And though God allows the natural to run it's course, I believe He does listen to our prayers and He will sovereignly decide in His infinite wisdom when and how to act on those prayers. I do not know the mind of God, why He allows some prayers to be answered and other not. There are apparently factors we have no knowledge about, but He does and will answer prayers accordingly. But I also believe that we can move the heart of God, not in a beck and call manner, but I believe that He can be moved by our compassion. His main concern for us is to learn how to love. Which is why we are told to pray in the first place, so that we can pray for other's burdens and concerns.

In the case of the praying grandma, and in my example, she could be praying for someone to intervene in the life of her grandson. That prayer may have the Holy Spirit impress upon another person in the sphere of that grandson to be a presence in his life (I believe God works through people, though wee need to be sensitive to the call of the Spirit also. We could miss an opprtunity to be a blessing in someone's life). For the grandson, there will be signs that God is knocking in his life, which he may or may not recognize or even care. All I'm saying here is that there is an added dimension when prayer is used than when it's not.

I get uncomfortable with intercessory prayer anyway... that might be a topic for another thread. Suffice it to say that I've seen intercessory prayer and I've seen Pagan magical ritual. And it doesn't seem all that different in either its content or its results.

I don't like to think of the Spirit as some power of God that is at our beck and call. I rather like to think of the Spirit as the part of God that reaches out to us all, in accord with where we're at in life and our capacity to withstand it, drawing us toward Christ and the Father.

Yeah, I get kinda burned up as some of these TV evangelists who assert that we can claim something 'in the name of Jesus' and it is guaranteed in the 'atonement'. It's complete bullsh!t and it's ruining a lot of lives in the process as well as their faith in God.

Yet I've seen plenty of results. There is no guarantee (again, God is soveriegn), but I've seen it in my own life and the lives of others. I've also seen prayers not answered and come to find out that I'm glad that they weren't. Sometimes we don't know what are asking for.

But I'd invite a separate thread to discuss this further.

I agree, and yet in some people the transformation seems nearly instantaneous. You see the same thing among Buddhists with enlightenment. For some, it seems a gradual process. For others, a sudden moment, a flash of insight which, if continually cultivated from that point forward, remains. I think we are each given a measure of the Light of God, and the more we cultivate it and obey it and allow it to transform us, the more is given.

Instant karma? Instant enlightenment? There are people who have experienced dramatic changes in their lives in a very short time. I'd venture to say that it is a result of a dramatic change in circumstances that come with their 'rebirth'. Their whole lives change. They no longer feel they belong to certain associations. There is a drastic change in behavior and outlook, almost like they aren't the same person. Of course, this sometimes tends to alienate them from friends and family, and it take courage sometimes to stick with it. I'm not all the well familiar with how Enlightenment in Buddhism works, but it's one thing to instantly change, it's quite another matter to maintain that change.

I think we have the law written on our hearts, and this if from God. I think we then get layers of stuff from our culture, which may or may not be in accord with God-given conscience.

Our conscience doesn't get pricked until it's challenged. We only know the law when we've broken it. Sometime in your childhood, when you committed your first sin, when you mother told you not to eat the cookies and you went and ate them anyway, knowing full well you were told not to. Then when she asks you who ate the cookies, you either lie to cover it up or if she caught you and asks you why, you say "I dunno." Why? Because your desire for cookies overcame your desire to obey your mom. But it's in that instance, that your learn you did wrong, AND that it had consequences (you suddenly have a 'desire' to massage your sore butt!).

The law isn't for those who do good, but for those who have the inclination to do bad. Which we all are subject to in varying degrees. But we will not know the law until we know what it is. So our God-given conscience can only go so far.

Someone who is not raised in a religious home may never hear of the Ten Commandments. In this case, he/she may still turn up alright because a form of commandments is wrapped up in their family and cultural and civic values. Of course, even those who are raised in a religious home often disregard it.

I think the common denominator is that the law is no good unless there is some consequence on breaking it, some disadvantage to the individual contemplating a wrong action. A child allowed to have free reign isn't going to have the discipline to obey.

Man o' man, have I seen this over and over, particularly in some of my cousins and my cousin's children. I mean, I'm not the perfect parent, but I don't spill my kids like I've seen some do. It just ruins them. Why? Because they play to the child's desires, see.

I believe it is possible to raise a child to be conscious of moral action at a very young age, and so transition relatively seamlessly from innocence to life in the Spirit. I was conscious of justice and mercy by the time I was about two. I think people have it in them from the start, but most children are treated like cute morons who have no real capacity for spirituality and moral action on their own.

This doesn't mean that toddlers can learn the complex sociocultural rules we have about everything, but they can learn the basics of listening to the Spirit. They can learn fairly rapidly to have compassion.

How disciplinary were your parents?

 

[juantoo3]

I can see I'm a little late to the party, but I am thrilled to see Path and Dondi picked up on the "nature of evil" hint I dropped.

I think it correct to want to see the good in other people, that even mass murderers were once little cooing babies. But I do have this sense that G-d, at least in the raw, pure form, is Holy; and that something not-Holy cannot exist in the presence of Holy. I think of it as a kind of "matter : anti-matter" type of thing.

Otherwise, we end up staring in the face of a quandary: did G-d endorse/ commit/ sustain/ agree to/ perpetrate atrocities upon His creation? I can make a list...the Holocaust, the Killing Fields, Darfur, war, greed, fraud.

If G-d is in all, and all are G-d, then G-d is perpetrating these atrocities upon G-d, which makes no logical sense, and makes morality and ethics moot. So either there is no evil (any takers?), or something about this concept is not quite right...in my humble opinion.

Now, none of us with understanding is without guilt. There are garden variety sins...and the Holy Spirit can still work in and around that.

But there are greater sins, and there are unrepentent sinners (Christian parlance, but the concept is not limited to Christians). Greater sins and excessive sins drive a wedge between the soul and the Holy Spirit. At some point there is simply no turning back, that soul has made its final choice.

I simply must disagree with the notion that evil is some psychological construct, a toothless dog so to speak- all bark and no bite. I dreamed about this subject after my earlier post on the topic, and I woke up with my heart beating in my throat. Certainly no proof that evil is not psychological...but then I see pointing to magical use of power, a pagan iteration of intercessory prayer, which suggests to me that I am not the only who understands evil to be more than a head game.

And in the simplest terms I can muster, G-d and evil are polar opposites. One cannot abide the other.

It is important to make the distinction between garden variety sins and evil, but to belittle evil is not what I feel appropriate for a wise person to do. A really good way to lose a war is to underestimate the enemy.

That is only my understanding in the matter, and I fully realize I may well be in the minority.