Women Priests

[Thomas]

Thomas, since we are the Body of Christ, what you believe is being advocated here would seem to have at least two fairly significant implications: Instead of consuming communion wafers and wine/grape juice, we should be (1) cannabalizing each other, and/or (2) cannabalizing ourselves. That is, if we stick with a literal view.

No, because the Body of Christ is constituted by those who are in communion with Him, He is its head, and we its members.

We subsist because of Him, not because of ourselves, or each other.

But nor am I proposing cannibalism ... which would actually reduce the Eucharist to a mere magical ritual ... I think the point of the chapter is far more than that, but immediately it's about acceptance, and not simply acceptance but metanoia, a change of heart, and the point remains valid, we have to accept Christ on His terms, and not ours.

Reformation theology reduces baptism to a mere sign ... a rite of passage ... Orthodox doctrine insists the Holy Spirit is active and present in and on the person baptised (according to the degree they allow). Ever since then, the liberal trajectory has been to rationalise and reduce Christianity to effectively little more than ethical humanism. It is stripped of its Mystery.

The Eucharist is no mere sign, a metaphor for something inward and indeterminate, but a real thing, transmission of being at the level of one's nature, not one's individuality.

Eucharistic Theology is a deep and profound subject, and I'm not really willing to discuss it in open forum.

John 15:5:
"for without me you can do nothing."
This, to me, is what it all boils down to. We don't want to admit that, We are prepared to give Christ anything, except ourselves ... and that's the only thing He wants, so He can give it back anew, and glorified.

Thomas

 

[Thomas]

Please cite Biblical support for the notion of obedience to the twelve.

Acts 6:6
"These (the seven chosen by multitude from among the Hellenists) they set before the apostles; and they praying, imposed hands upon them. (the imposition of hands was a Jewish ritual of expressing the transfer of authority and power)."

6:7 sums up the results of the apostle's actions:
"And the word of the Lord increased;
and the number of the disciples was multiplied in Jerusalem exceedingly:
a great multitude also of the priests obeyed the faith."
By this we can assume that the Hellenic Christians came under the direct authority of the apostles — it is they to whom the Faith is entrusted.

Here St Luke sums up this segment. The result of the apostle's handling of the dispute is a positive outcome 'And the word of the Lord increased' which echoes a sentiment expressed at a similar summing up previously: "And the Lord increased daily together such as should be saved." (2:47)

If not as above, then v7 is actually meaningless from the Lucan viewpoint.

Thomas

 

[Netti-Netti]

No, because the Body of Christ is constituted by those who are in communion with Him, He is its head, and we its members.

Either we are part of the living body or we are lifeless appendages. Which is it?

 

[Netti-Netti]

Acts 6:6
"These (the seven chosen by multitude from among the Hellenists) they set before the apostles; and they praying, imposed hands upon them.

(the imposition of hands was a Jewish ritual of expressing the transfer of authority and power)."

We can probably assume that the transfer of authority and power accomplished by the Laying on of Hands procedure was accepted as such by the seven members of the Hellenist party who participated in this ritual.

Now, would the seven members of the Hellenist party thereafter exercise the same authority and power as the Twelve as a result of the transfer they had accepted from the Twelve, who intended to invest them (the seven members of the Hellenist party) with that authority and power ?

 

[seattlegal]

Acts 6:6
"These (the seven chosen by multitude from among the Hellenists) they set before the apostles; and they praying, imposed hands upon them. (the imposition of hands was a Jewish ritual of expressing the transfer of authority and power)."

I could just see gossip and rumors flying surrounding a female in authority in this regard--she 'slept' her way to her position via the literal laying on of hands!

 

[Thomas]

Either we are part of the living body or we are lifeless appendages. Which is it?

We are part of the Body, as long as we are in communion with the Body, which means acceptance of the rule of the Magisterium with humility ... and as soon as we set ourselves in opposition to that Body, we exclude ourselves from it.

You might want to look at Mysici Corporis Christi — an encyclical on just that.

Thomas

 

[Thomas]

We can probably assume that the transfer of authority and power accomplished by the Laying on of Hands procedure was accepted as such by the seven members of the Hellenist party who participated in this ritual.

Yes.

would the seven members of the Hellenist party thereafter exercise the same authority and power as the Twelve as a result of the transfer they had accepted from the Twelve, who intended to invest them (the seven members of the Hellenist party) with that authority and power ?

No ... by the laying on of hands they have authority invested in them by the Twelve to perform a certain function — that was the agreement — not that the Twelve should become Nineteen by the addition of seven others.

Thomas

 

[Thomas]

I could just see gossip and rumors flying surrounding a female in authority in this regard--she 'slept' her way to her position via the literal laying on of hands!

Oh yes! And women were not the only objects of gossip ...
Nicea: Canon 3
"The great Synod has stringently forbidden any bishop, presbyter, deacon, or any one of the clergy whatever, to have a subintroducta dwelling with him, except only a mother, or sister, or aunt, or such persons only as are beyond all suspicion."
By subintroducta is meant a woman living in a celibate relationship ... obviously this might be perfectly reasonable and harmless, but undoubtedly the object of gossip and rumour.

Also I think, although I cannot cite the case, there was at least one instance of a minister living in a house full of young women ... v-e-r-y suss ...

+++

One of the notable events of the English Reformation was the 'Dissolution of the Monasteries' and this has always been explained as happening because the monasteries had fallen into the most questionable licentiousness ...

Actually it's a crock, and pure propaganda. The reality is, the emerging aristocracy wanted the estates for themselves, and some of the largest were run by the great religious houses, and more than a few by Abesses of convents who effectively administered estates the size of a county.

(They sold the idea to Henry VIII to raise funds to finance his European wars, he saw hardly a penny as all the monies were swallowed up in 'admin costs' of the new rich.)

I think I recall someone saying that in so doing, one of the last surviving strata of female authority was done away with ... only the King's mistress remained!

Thomas

 

[Quahom1]

It should be pointed out that there were Catholic women priests, who not only thrived for centuries as such, but are signficant in their roles of keeping pretty much the whole of Europe from losing Christianity, as well as keeping it from sliding back into absolute primitiveness and barbarism, during the 600s through the 1100s.

They were the Celtic Abbesses of Ireland. If it weren't for them, we most likely would not have any knowledge of history or culture before the Dark ages.

They were also adept and powerful swordsmen and warriors as well as being ordained priests.

v/r

Q

 

[Francis king]

netti netti- in ur second post, you quoted some text... what organisation is this from, and do you belong to it?

no rush for a reply... cheers...

quahom- tell us more about the Celtic Abbesses... !!

 

[seattlegal]

netti netti- in ur second post, you quoted some text...

It's from the Urantia Book, Francis.

 

[Thomas]

They (Celtic abbesses) were also adept and powerful swordsmen and warriors as well as being ordained priests.

Are you sure? This sounds like the gift of the gab, to me.

Thomas

 

[path_of_one]

I'm curious about the Celtic abesses too. Are you referring to those that took up Christianity shortly after the Druidic period? Druids could be female and some were reportedly quite the warrior as well as the priest/ess.

 

[Quahom1]

netti netti- in ur second post, you quoted some text... what organisation is this from, and do you belong to it?

no rush for a reply... cheers...

quahom- tell us more about the Celtic Abbesses... !!

After St. Patrick began his ministry in Ireland circa 526 AD, those that followed were both Abbots and Abbesses who, ordained as catholic priests and educated in literature and history, built small Havens throughout the British Isles and deep into Europe, called Abbies. Besides the task of translating every piece of literature that could be found into multiple languages for preservation, the Abbots and Abbesses were called upon to educate the children of the Barons and lords through out the various lands, which they did quite well.

In fact they did so well that the Vatican sent a troupe of Bishops, Arch Bishops and Guards to meet and re-aquant with the Catholic Church in Ireland, to thank them for the outstanding service they were providing to the church and whole of humanity.

So, when they arrived and went into the hall to meet with all the priests gathered for the meeting, imagine the surprise to find out that 50 % of these priests doing such literical and humane miracles were...women???!!!!!

The Head Arch Bishop ordered the immediate stripping of the women of their vestments, and the execution of anyone who resisted, by which point, the Abbesses, unsheated their own double edged broad swords from under the same said vestments, and dispatched the Guards. Then turned on the Bishops with less than holy grins.

 

[Quahom1]

Needless to say, word was sent back to the vatican which wisely determined that the Abbesses were doing God's work, and were to remain ordained. This would remain with the Celtic order until the raids of the Vikings in Ireland circa 1000 AD. With the end of the Irish rule, so went catholicism for a time, and the last of the Abbesses.

A good book that give excellent and accurate details of this time is titled "How the Irish Saved Civilization" by Thomas Cahill.

"Thomas Cahill tells the story of how Europe evolved from the classical age of Rome to the medieval era. Without Ireland, the transition could not have taken place. Not only did Irish monks and scribes maintain the very record of Western civilization -- copying manuscripts of Greek and Latin writers, both pagan and Christian, while libraries and learning on the continent were forever lost -- they brought their uniquely Irish world-view to the task."

"...a distinctively Irish Christianity developed that emphasized monastic abbots/abbesses rather than bishops. This was largely a result of the radical changes in Irish power structures during the 5th century. The old provinces were gradually being replaced by a less static dynastic structure that did not favour an episcopal system based around the traditional centres of power (such as Tara Hill). The monasteries gained such control that some episcopal settlements, such as Armagh, became monastic centres."

v/r

Q

 

[path_of_one]

I'd be interested in the historial refs, if you have them.

But it sounds about what you'd get in the period right after classical Druidry.

Celtic society was fairly egalitarian between men and women, and women were frequently taught to fight too. Celtic Christians had a lot of differences from Roman Catholics- they hadn't quite let go of Druidic beliefs and the traditional Celtic social practices. Not sure that they ever did...

ETA- never mind about the refs- just saw that you posted them. LOL

 

[Quahom1]

Are you sure? This sounds like the gift of the gab, to me.

Thomas

No indeed Thomas, I would not "expound and expand" upon with is historical fact. I provided one author who has references listed in the back of the book. Once I am home, I'll provide more references if you are still curious.

You have to remember, the church of Rome and the church of Ireland grew up seperately, and Rome did not have much influence on Ireland for hundreds of years.

v/r

Q

 

[juantoo3]

This thread is a fascinating read, instructive and insightful.

I just have one question; how did it end up on the News board?

Like, maybe shouldn't it be on the History board, or maybe even B&S or even Abrahamics, possibly Comparative? It just seems out of place with the other threads on this board.

BTW, Kudos to you Q for bringing up the Irish connection!

 

[Netti-Netti]

It should be pointed out that there were Catholic women priests, who not only thrived for centuries as such, but are signficant in their roles of keeping pretty much the whole of Europe from losing Christianity, as well as keeping it from sliding back into absolute primitiveness and barbarism, during the 600s through the 1100s.

They were the Celtic Abbesses of Ireland. If it weren't for them, we most likely would not have any knowledge of history or culture before the Dark ages.

They were also adept and powerful swordsmen and warriors as well as being ordained priests.

I looked into this superficially and its seems the institutions were fairly clear about differences between priests and Abbesses. Specifically, it seems Abbesses did not have "sacramental ordination" and could not exercise "sacramental prerogatives."

 

[Thomas]

Let me first say, as a holder of an Irish passport I love the idea of the Irish saving Europe, and to hear an Irishman tell it, you'd swear it was true ... but let's not go overboard. I know of John Scottus Eriugena reintroducing Plato and St Maximus to his king ... but one swallow doesn't make a summer, and one educated Irishman doesn't make a renaissance.

Let us also remember that the 'Celtic Christian' was effectively a Christian who maintained a certain lyricism of heart ... whilst the Fathers of the East went to the Desert, in the absence of deserts the Fathers of the West went to the wild headlands and islands to establish their communities.

+++

Let's also clarify — from the Abessess I've looked at, they seemed to have followed the normal procedure of taking the veil — becoming a nun — although obviously the educated womenfolk of the nobility because of their education and experience would have risen quicker in the order.

And an abbess did wield a fair amount of authority, and indeed comparable to a bishop, but she was not an ordained priest, and therefore can undertake none of the sacerdotal functions nor is invested with the authority and charism of the bishop on matters of faith and morals.

But ... and this is a big but ... anyone ordaining a woman would be in breach of the Faith and the ordination would be illicit and defective. The East did not ordain women ... in fact as far as I know no Christian community ordained women and if the Irish did, then that was an error.

At the Synod of Whitby — the famous meeting between the Ionian or 'Celtic' Tradition and Rome — matters under dispute were the dating of Ester (the Irish followed the Eastern rule), the monastic tonsure ... and a new idea that spread right across Europe, private as opposed to public confession.

Thomas