Women Priests

Hey AndrewX, that is really fascinating. Actually its going to take some time for me to absorb the things that have been discussed in this thread, but I wanted to especially request if you know what the gnostics thought about the number 13? Does that also have a masculine/feminine concept going for it? I'm asking, because you could actually count 13 apostles if you included both Iscariot and Matthias, plus with all the other extra apostles you can get an even larger number. There are 13 constellations - not twelve, and you could say there are 10, 11, 12, or even 13 sons of Jacob / Israel, if you wanted to count them that way.
 
I haven't read through all these repsonses, but I stumbled across this website ....
Women priests website
Hi Dondi,

The site was previously cited for this conclusion:
(T)here is simply no historical grounds for regarding the Twelve as the first priests, for maintaining that Jesus ordained them, or for considering them as the exclusive

You may be interested in the reaction that follows...
http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/women-priests-9241.html#post153877

 
Of course originally the Christian understanding of the Trinity did not proceed in the same order as is currently accepted. The order, until shifted by the Roman Catholic Church, was Father, Mother (or Holy Spirit, accepted de facto as Feminine) and Son.

The Hebrew term for spirit (Ruach) apparently is feminine. However, the greek (Pneuma) is not (it's neutral). In other words, spirit had different genders in the OT and the NT.

So who do you blame for the shift ? The Catholic Church or the Greek language?
 
The Hebrew term for spirit (Ruach) apparently is feminine. However, the greek (Pneuma) is not (it's neutral). In other words, spirit had different genders in the OT and the NT.

So who do you blame for the shift ? The Catholic Church or the Greek language?
Hmmm, I'm not sure about this one, Netti-Netti. I think there may be several factors involved. For starters, if you're not familiar with the Greek pantheon of Gods & Goddesses, and also with the cosmology which informs (and substands) this pantheon, you might take a look at two short sections in this Wikipedia article:

Greek mythology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Notice that in terms of cosmology, as with so many of the ancient religions, a completely transcendent, utterly unknowable and certainly non-gendered CHAOS first produces a feminine expression (or Deity) -- Gaia. This is the Virgin Egg of Cosmos, the true Mother Mary of Immaculate Space (prior even to dimensionality), the Egyptian Isis (or Neith) and the Buddhist Hiranyagarbha, with Brahma emerging as Light.

According to Hesiod, Gaia gives birth to Uranus (the Sky) who then fertilises her without male assistance ... just as the Egyptian Nut was understood to give birth, cyclically to all heavenly bodies.

I think it's an interesting study the gradual evolution of Egyptian and Greek mythology, whereby Deities that occupy a sublime and inviting symbology become gradually transformed into the much more anthropomorphic conceptions which were popular later, and which we generally encounter in superficial treatments of these ancient religions.

We might say that the Wisdom which was carefully concealed from the profane has been a bit too well concealed, almost to the point that people forget to use the imagination to understand what life was like ... thousands of years ago, before the Internet, before planetariums (with modern electronic technology), and even before television or easy access to the public library.

Certainly, in a place like the Library of Alexandria, or if one were so lucky in a Mystery School such as Pythagoras' Krotona or Plato's Academy, one could study the Wisdom Teachings without immediate fear of persecution. But things changed in the centuries to come, as the Innocents (read Initiates) were slaughtered or driven underground, to make way for new & different ... ideologies.

The imagination, however, can never be supressed; only discouraged, and genuine insights challenged when they differ from the status quo. We may now typically think of Zeus as the Father of the Gods when it comes to Greek mythology, yet I would suggest this is not much different than picturing a wrathful Jehovah-figure instead of approaching what is actually presented by the mystical and occult teachings of Judaism and Christianity.

I believe the ruah of Kabbalistic teachings should indeed be understood as feminine, and any masculine associations that are picked up in translation to the Greek should probably be discarded. Considering that these two words are apparently intended to signify the exact same principle both in Cosmos and in the human being, I'd have to hear a pretty good argument for the shift from a feminine principle (and Person of the Trinity) to a masculine before I adjusted my ways of thinking.

Esoterically, the Soul is often spoken of as feminine in relation to our earthly personality (that is, the true Ego or Self in relation to little ego), though in another sense you might say we must be receptive to impression as we seek the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and that relationship could be considered positive/masculine (Soul/Holy Spirit/ruah/pneuma) vs. negative/feminine (personality).

There can be confusion, because while ruah can equate to Holy Spirit, either microcosmically or macrocosmically, the Soul itself is certainly not gendered as we usually think of the term (just as being negative or receptive to Inspiration is obviously not a bad thing ... in a more `pop' connotation of the word negative). Further, there is a teaching that the Soul serves a higher purpose as a vehicle, or means of expression (a living, loving and intelligent one) for Spirit, on a higher turn of the spiral, in much the same way that personality is vehicle to the Soul. This necessarily requires a reorienation for many folks, including consideration that we might be the incarnation of something greater (Soul) ... instead of the primary party (ontologically & metaphysically speaking) with soul as some sort of an appendage.

Somehow, I feel certain that getting women officially accepted as part of the Catholic clergy will eventually contribute to the right understanding of this and a zillion other important and/or interesting spiritual matters ... though granted, the social order on Earth might not snap into perfect bliss & harmony the self-same moment that the Pope issues said proclamation, nor on the inauguration day of the first female, African-American, left-handed Pope or U.S. President. Ya know? ;) lol

Peace ... andrew
 
While some religions are at war with one another, others are beset by internal squabbles.

For instance, in recent years the churches of Christendom have been split by ongoing debates on matters of doctrine.

Clergy and laity alike ask: Is birth control permitted? What about abortion? Should women be ordained as priests? How ought the church to view homosexuality? Should a religion sanction war? In view of such disunity, many wonder, ‘How can a religion unite mankind if it cannot unite even its own members?’
Clearly, religion in general has failed to be a force for unity. But are all religions marked by divisions? Is there a religion that is different—one that can unite mankind?

seek and you will find :) mee has found it

ITS JEHOVAHS WITNESSES
 
any religion is full of people that ask why? this can cause division, no one is exempt, because we are all people. People like to ask why and like to have answers and when someone is against their ideas that they came up with it can get personal. For all christian denominations this is not a matter of salvation or the nature of God, so it should never cause division, but just schools of thought. Let's talk common sense for a second. Do not women raise our children? Women also can be full of life experiences, and be given the ability to teach lessons from the bible, and they may also have a spiritual gift, so they should teach. It would be foolish to miss out on any opportunity that could help others find Christ or strengthen their walk with Christ. However, it is not the woman's role to bring the Spirit into the home, this is a responsibility of the man to be the head of the household. This doesn't mean that women can't, it means that men need to.
 
Clearly, religion in general has failed to be a force for unity. But are all religions marked by divisions? Is there a religion that is different—one that can unite mankind?
seek and you will find :) mee has found it


ITS JEHOVAHS WITNESSES
While it is obvious from the number of ex JWs that they leave the fold and unity amongst them is not as you indicate. I do find it interesting that JW is no longer part of Christendom but a religion unto itself as you state, quite interesting mee.​
 
While it is obvious from the number of ex JWs that they leave the fold and unity amongst them is not as you indicate. I do find it interesting that JW is no longer part of Christendom but a religion unto itself as you state, quite interesting mee.[/left]
yes some are not into unity they like it their way .

but those who stay by the flock are not outside in the spiritual darkness ,they are in the protection of the most high.


And yes Jehovahs witnesses are no part of christendom , Jehovahs people stick to what the bible REALLY teaches.:)
 
yes some are not into unity they like it their way .

but those who stay by the flock are not outside in the spiritual darkness ,they are in the protection of the most high.


And yes Jehovahs witnesses are no part of christendom , Jehovahs people stick to what the bible REALLY teaches.:)
Yep your faith is a perfect example of failure to get into 'unity', and you like it your WAY.

Guilty as the rest of us...
 
yes some are not into unity they like it their way .

but those who stay by the flock are not outside in the spiritual darkness ,they are in the protection of the most high.


And yes Jehovahs witnesses are no part of christendom , Jehovahs people stick to what the bible REALLY teaches.:)

Thank you. Get off the Christian forum. now.
 
Hey AndrewX, that is really fascinating. Actually its going to take some time for me to absorb the things that have been discussed in this thread, but I wanted to especially request if you know what the gnostics thought about the number 13? Does that also have a masculine/feminine concept going for it? I'm asking, because you could actually count 13 apostles if you included both Iscariot and Matthias, plus with all the other extra apostles you can get an even larger number. There are 13 constellations - not twelve, and you could say there are 10, 11, 12, or even 13 sons of Jacob / Israel, if you wanted to count them that way.
Dream, I thought about your question ... and only a couple of things occur to me. I'll share what I came up with, but I'm guessing there are folks at CR who would have a lot more insight into the numerological significance of `13' than I do. This is kind of an aside, anyway, since I just wanted to show how the Heavens are mirrored into the earthly, and how the lack of the Divine Feminine is something sticking out like a sore thumb (on this planet, at this point in history) ... in need of bandaging. ;)

Here goes:

One observation I make is that the number thirteen contains within it the concept of Unity (or non-duality), of duality, of the trinity, and even of the fourfold body of expression which incarnates the Holy Trinity (both in Cosmos and in the human being) ... thus it also implies the Septenate.

The `1' in 13 is the Unity, the `3' is the Trinity, the relationship between these two numbers is the duality of the UNmanifest Godhead vs. the Triune expression of Deity (at abstract levels, even prior to the Creation of Cosmos). Once the work of the Trinity has begun the Divine Septenate also comes into expression, with four (the numerical combination of 1 + 3) being the "counterpart" of the Trinity, and standing for the attributes of Deity vs. the Aspects (also known as the Four Directions or Four Elements).

So 13 may actually be one of the more sublime numbers, symbolically speaking, despite its bad reputation in popular lore. Even at face value it contains a reference to the Supreme ONE, while also including the first active expression of the One, the Trinity.

Another place 13 occurs, in Christian teachings, is in the numbering of the Apostles, as you mention. They were 12, without Christ, but when counting Christ as the head of the Group, there were always 13 -- both before Christ's crucifixion, and afterward. The esoteric tradition maintains that Jesus taught the disciples for 3 year in the body, and for another 30 out of it. So at all times, both before St. Paul and during St. Paul's day, one should properly count 13.

As for astrology, I'm pretty much unversed in the finer points, but I do understand that the number of constellations changes with our Solar System's transit through the heavens. Thus the number will actually increase, or decrease, and I seem to recall that we are headed toward nine constellations ... and that there once numbered thirteen, but I might have that backwards, or - wrong. lol

Anyway, that's all I came up with, but maybe someone else has some insights? :)

Peace,

andrew
 
this is about women priests, not gnosticism...Andrews, please bear that in mind.

thanks.

Q
 
this is about women priests, not gnosticism...Andrews, please bear that in mind.

thanks.

Q
NP, Q, just answering a question asked. You might notice I acknowledged what you just reminded me of in my post ... before you reminded me. Hmmm.

Oh, and the thread did get moved. Before, it was "fair game" ... but as for the actual topic, I thought what Netti-Netti posted (http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/156606-post142.html) might be interesting, but I can't get the link to work.

Could you relink it please? Or maybe I misunderstood ...
 
NP, Q, just answering a question asked. You might notice I acknowledged what you just reminded me of in my post ... before you reminded me. Hmmm.

Oh, and the thread did get moved. Before, it was "fair game" ... but as for the actual topic, I thought what Netti-Netti posted (http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/156606-post142.html) might be interesting, but I can't get the link to work.

Could you relink it please? Or maybe I misunderstood ...
Women priests website
 
I'm going to throw in the Orthodox perspective on the matter:

Among the Orthodox, we only ordain men because we have only ordained men. Yes, it does sound foolish by the standards of this world. However, inasmuch as we can understand, this Tradition is a Tradition from the Apostles, who were themselves ordained by God. We really don't know why.

That being said, there has never been any dogmatic formulation against ordination of women. It is something that simply has never been done. We cling to our traditions, perhaps a little too strongly, but that is what we do. Irrational? Yes, we are foolish in this world.
 
I'm going to throw in the Orthodox perspective on the matter:

Among the Orthodox, we only ordain men because we have only ordained men. Yes, it does sound foolish by the standards of this world. However, inasmuch as we can understand, this Tradition is a Tradition from the Apostles, who were themselves ordained by God. We really don't know why.

That being said, there has never been any dogmatic formulation against ordination of women. It is something that simply has never been done. We cling to our traditions, perhaps a little too strongly, but that is what we do. Irrational? Yes, we are foolish in this world.
Namaste and welcome to CR Dogbrain,

Can you indicate from which orthodoxy you speak?
 
Namaste and welcome to CR Dogbrain,

Can you indicate from which orthodoxy you speak?

I am within the Eastern Orthodox Church, although my discussions with Oriental Orthodox lead me to believe that they have a very similar doctrine.

NB: "Eastern Orthodox" INCLUDES "Russian Orthodox", "Greek Orthodox", and many other such Orthodox jurisdictions. We are one Church.
 
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