Prophecy
- Thread starter dauer
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lunamoth
Episcopalian
Prophecy is speaking the word of God, eternal truth. It is not about predicting the future, except perhaps to the extent that one clearly sees the 'handwriting on the wall.' If I remember correctly , even some of the Biblical prophets were incorrect about certain historical outcomes...but that in no way detracts from their messages.
Hate evil and do what is good. Love God and each other.
I believe that prophets are inspired by God, but it also takes inspiration on the parts of the listeners to hear what they are saying.
Discerning truth? Well, that's the whole trick, isn't it?! For me, that's where faith and humility come in. We balance the power of our convictions with hope that what we pursue really is in the best interest of others and the world. It seems we really only know in hindsight.
I strongly believe that the Holy Spirit is at work in the world. Whatever we do provides raw materials for her and we move inexorably toward her goals, regardless of how messy it looks in the meanwhile.
lunamoth
Episcopalian
Forgot this part.
Prophets call us to return to God. You don't have to be a 'religious' figure to be a prophet, IMO.
luna,
in light of this statement
would you say that the role of a prophet is tied very closely to reminding mankind of its ethical obligations? Do MLK and Gandhi embody the ideals of prophecy as you understand them?
-- Dauer
edit: Further actually, do you think there is a difference between embodying the ideals of a prophet and being a prophet and, is prophecy a role that one has for a moment, for that period of time that one's words are in line with your conception of what it means to be a prophet, or is it a permanent label? To put it differently, in some moments I'm a speaker and in the very next I may be a listener. Is prophecy similar?
in light of this statement
would you say that the role of a prophet is tied very closely to reminding mankind of its ethical obligations? Do MLK and Gandhi embody the ideals of prophecy as you understand them?
-- Dauer
edit: Further actually, do you think there is a difference between embodying the ideals of a prophet and being a prophet and, is prophecy a role that one has for a moment, for that period of time that one's words are in line with your conception of what it means to be a prophet, or is it a permanent label? To put it differently, in some moments I'm a speaker and in the very next I may be a listener. Is prophecy similar?
lunamoth
Episcopalian
I would say so dauer, and yes, both of those men are prophets IMO. I think that there is also the element of calling people to return to God, but I think that in our modern era those calling people to love one another are calling us to God's will.
lunamoth
Episcopalian
There is a distinction between the idea of 'prophetic' and being a prophet. We can all have insights which are prophetic, but I think that being a prophet also involves the conviction of being on a mission.
Dream
Well-Known Member
Very broadly: Prophecy is G!d affecting nature, so it also includes all of nature. Prophecy has no nature, but is transmitted through it like sound through the air. We and all things are an instrument and prophecy is the crack of sound. The prophecy impacts people primarily, then everything else. A prophet is anyone or anything that claims to carry a message from G!d or to interpret messages from G!d. Under any such prophet are teachers, preachers, and believers that are all participants in its prophecy. Also, anyone who lives by a prophecy is transmitting it by doing so. It is the role of any prophet to be changed themselves by the prophecy, in order to transmit it into the world.Dauer said:
Could there be such a thing as false prophecy under this definition?
Dream,
would you say from that definition that for example, if a person finds a personal meaning in a moment, that something in their life speaks to them directly, that it is prophecy? If so, that is similar to the way I use the word miracle. I see becoming aware of miracles as requiring a shift in perspective.
would you say from that definition that for example, if a person finds a personal meaning in a moment, that something in their life speaks to them directly, that it is prophecy? If so, that is similar to the way I use the word miracle. I see becoming aware of miracles as requiring a shift in perspective.
Dream
Well-Known Member
Discussing this is a bit of an uphill climb. I think I understand what you mean about miracles, and no I don't think that a person who finds personal meaning in a moment should call it prophecy, although it might be prophetic. Whatever impact that miracle has upon them is the prophecy (under my definition), assuming they allow it to affect them. This relates to what I was asking about above, which is now two questions: Is false prophecy merely a refusal to change, and could a lie manage to actually harm something prophetic?
Dream,
so a prophecy is the human response to a Divine imperative? False prophecy may or may not be the refusal to heed a Divine imperative? If I can introduce another term to ask a clarifying question, would you say that if we could talk about some sort of prophetic force, some sum of all prophecy in the world, that it would be the totality of the human response to a Divine drive to do what is good and right for the individual and for humanity?
Do you think a lie could ever aid prophecy? For example let's say someone maintains an idea that is in the service of the community but is not objectively true. The individual knows it isn't but recognizes that it would serve the people to maintain that untruth, like in the new Batman film if you've seen it.
-- Dauer
edit: btw what type of machinery is in your avatar?
so a prophecy is the human response to a Divine imperative? False prophecy may or may not be the refusal to heed a Divine imperative? If I can introduce another term to ask a clarifying question, would you say that if we could talk about some sort of prophetic force, some sum of all prophecy in the world, that it would be the totality of the human response to a Divine drive to do what is good and right for the individual and for humanity?
Do you think a lie could ever aid prophecy? For example let's say someone maintains an idea that is in the service of the community but is not objectively true. The individual knows it isn't but recognizes that it would serve the people to maintain that untruth, like in the new Batman film if you've seen it.
-- Dauer
edit: btw what type of machinery is in your avatar?
Dream
Well-Known Member
Dauer, I haven't seen the new Batman film yet. I really enjoyed the last one, but I feel like I'm being abused by DC Comics, because its like I have no choice but to watch every single Batman movie and they know it. The more Batman movies I watch, the more they make! Its become an expensive problem, so I purposely didn't go for that reason. I feel bad though, because artists have to eat, too. I'm going to go see it, since I owe them for reading their stuff in the library for free.
The current avatar is a picture of an infinite-energy contraption that doesn't really work, however its intended to drive itself by means of gears, a screw-pump, and a water wheel.
The current avatar is a picture of an infinite-energy contraption that doesn't really work, however its intended to drive itself by means of gears, a screw-pump, and a water wheel.
Dream
Well-Known Member
Perhaps it is more, because certain people are changed when prophecy comes to them, like Saul for instance. Jeremiah never had the chance to refuse, as far as I know.Dauer said:
That is similar to what I was thinking. I think it generally is for the good of humanity and also for the individual, however I don't know if that is the ultimate reason for it. Maybe it is.Dauer said:
Well, thats one of my questions, however now that you mention it I haven't thoroughly thought it through. I know G!d does not need to lie, however there are hidden truths. He allows us to lie, too. In that sense, it is like when an artist speaks truth by the exceptions in his art. Also, even though there is this general positivity about prophecy, there's a non-human aspect that doesn't always agree with me. For example, the prophecy doesn't cater to me or solve my personal problems directly.Dauer said:
Prophecy is to voice out what are told and inspired by God. Endtimes prophets are to reveal and to witness.
Daniel 12:4,8-10
But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge."
I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, "My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?"
He replied, "Go your way, Daniel, because the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end. Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.
So seeking knowledge here and there is indicative as the time of end. People will be exploring knowledge such as science. Yet it's prophecied that by eating and keep eating from the Tree of Knowledge will finally make people die their second death.
At the same time, Truth (inside Daniel's scroll) will be revealed and continue to be revealed, yet the unsaved will never understand.
Muslimwoman
Coexistence insha'Allah
You've just got to love that answer ..... go Luna!!!
A nabi or prophet is someone chosen by Allah to convey both glad tidings as well as warnings to his people. The word nabi is derived from the word naba which means news, so a prophet is defined by giving news of the future, which is called a prophecy. The objective of every prophet is to call their people back to the devotion of Allah, the One True God, and to abandon the devotion to all other "gods" and idols. Islam teaches that there have been one hundred and twenty four thousand prophets throughout history, including Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, and Jesus (alaihimus salam), and that Muhammad (alaihi salatu wa salam) is the seal of the prophets, the last and final prophet sent to all mankind.
Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things (33:40)
Muhammad (alaihi salatu wa salam) is khatama an-nabiyeen which means he is the seal of the prophets. A seal is something signifying closing or completing. Muhammad (alaihi salatu wa salam) said: Wa ana khatama annabiyeen la nabiyya badee (and I am the seal of the prophets, there is no prophet after me)
The problem is that you are only getting information from the sacred Quran about Islamic beliefs, whereas Islam is based on both Quran and Sunnah. You must also read the hadith (sayings of Muhammad) which explains the meaning of the Quran.
But you need to explain a bit about "Sunnah", and "Hadith". See?