Two Views on suffering

you don't exist now as anything but a collection of aggregates.

i have found your conclusions about my religion to be very interesting.

metta,

~v

Hi Vaj

I find the whole question mind expanding. What is the potential for the aggregates that define our being and its suffering? Is the potential inner unity or non existence? I believe that both Buddhism and Christianity initiated with a conscious source and at a level of transcendent reality. Yet these two goals appear like a contradiction.

"When a contradiction is impossible to resolve except by a lie, then we know that it is really a door." Simone Weil

Christianity suggests re-birth of the natural man into the New Man. Buddhism seeks the non-existence of the old man. If Simone is right, the apparent contradiction is a door. But how to find it and to open it to experience the reconciliation behind it?
 
Certainly the kleshas and skandhas are useful to understand, but so are the Paramitas ... and without the Atma-Buddhi-Manas, or future Dharamakaya, Sambhogakaya and Nirmanakaya vestitures, our entire presence here would be meaningless. Indeed, there would be no point.

Our experience in the sangsara is conditioned by maya, glamour and illusion, but this does not mean that a greater, transcendent reality does not exist (incorporating, rather than negating, the three lower worlds). Nirvana is not extinction, even of individual ego, or individuality. Rather, from the perspective of the still-imperfect little self, or little ego, there is an expansion of consciousness ... and the definition of `self' changes. What we now experience as multiplicity, becomes unity ... unity-in-diversity, but increasing non-duality.

It would be a mistake, a fallacy, to assume that there is a radical shift between duality and non-duality. Nowhere else in Cosmos does growth progress in such leaps in bounds. Enlightenment is no different. There are, of course, vast or major expansions of consciousness -- Initiations, into altogether news states of awareness and realms of Being. And the orientation of these aligns us more & more with the Christ, or Christ consciousness ... first within the microcosm, then within the macrocosm, as we become able to respond to such vibrations -- ever-so slightly.

We may replace the term `Christ consciousness' with Bodhimind, and at most there are only subtle nuances of difference. The Principle (sic), literally an Aspect of our Soul or spiritual consciousness, is the same, no matter what we call it. In theosophy this may be termed Buddhi, but other approaches may simply call it the Intuition. Words change nothing, except where barriers arise in the mind, due to ignorance, prejudice, superstition, fear and pride.

I thought we were to cast off the kleshas, avoid these modes of thought and states of mind like the plague that they are -- true poisons to our positively-polarized spiritual consciousness. Buddhism, and Buddhists, especially western ones who do not understand the true roots of the philosophy, often attempt to be a bit too secular ... and in so doing, this most sublime of all Teachings (branches of the one Dharma) to come to our planet turns into dust. We may as well eat dirt, for that is what happens to the Buddha-Dharma that otherwise might be being practiced. :eek:

I recall a good friend of mine often saying, regardless as to how wonderful a spiritual practice we were discussing, "That is very good, but it is also good to practice the Dharma." :)

Yes, I've studied Tibetan Buddhim, and a little bit of what other branches teach ... Hinayana, Mahayana, Vajrayana. I am aware of "the official version," thank you. I also know what squabbles arise, no different than in Christian camps. Somehow this is helping us? Contributing towards my, your, anyone's enlightenment?

Methinks not. :(

Perhaps we can change that ... ? :)

Namaskar ... Love and Light,

andrew
 
Hi Andrew

Yes, I've studied Tibetan Buddhim, and a little bit of what other branches teach ... Hinayana, Mahayana, Vajrayana. I am aware of "the official version," thank you. I also know what squabbles arise, no different than in Christian camps. Somehow this is helping us? Contributing towards my, your, anyone's enlightenment?

Methinks not. :(

Perhaps we can change that ... ? :)

Namaskar ... Love and Light,
Can it be changed? I don't know. It requires inner recognition of two psychological realities that I can think of now. I know that recognizing them is considered a bad attitude.

The first is that it is important. Secularism has become so dominant that it is an annoyance to contemplate the possibility that we live in dreams and what is lost by it. It is now fashionable to view all dreams as equal and share their platitudes or argue one dream better than another.

Where the first is the loss of the hunger for "meaning" the second is the inability to admit that reality and human meaning and purpose more normal for humanity exists beyond our current conception To admit ones own dream state is a no no and an insult.

So taken together, the fact that the secular use of technology furthers the dream state and along with our collective misguided belief in modern psychological superiority, pretty much assures me unfortunately that everything will stay roughly the same
 
I agree with the idea that you can seek the way of end with your suffering, I don't really think that you have to enjoy the fact that in some moments you are suffering, but look for the vest way of get out of that situation.

Glangy
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Hi Andrew


Can it be changed? I don't know. It requires inner recognition of two psychological realities that I can think of now. I know that recognizing them is considered a bad attitude.

The first is that it is important. Secularism has become so dominant that it is an annoyance to contemplate the possibility that we live in dreams and what is lost by it. It is now fashionable to view all dreams as equal and share their platitudes or argue one dream better than another.

Where the first is the loss of the hunger for "meaning" the second is the inability to admit that reality and human meaning and purpose more normal for humanity exists beyond our current conception To admit ones own dream state is a no no and an insult.

So taken together, the fact that the secular use of technology furthers the dream state and along with our collective misguided belief in modern psychological superiority, pretty much assures me unfortunately that everything will stay roughly the same
Hmmm, I do think that things will change only gradually, Nick, such that it may be several decades (or centuries, in the fullest sense) before the current Pisces-to-Aquarius shift has manifested fully in the body of Humanity ... and washed through us to produce the new zeitgeist toward which we aspire.

In the bigger picture, it may seem that there is nothing we can do to speed things up, as certain changes would appear fixed by the motion in the heavens ... but I'm convinced that a philosophy of `Think Globally, Act Locally' really is where need to continue to focus.

Secular humanism has its place, and for those who have had bad experiences with religion -- either in childhood, or adulthood -- humanism can help tremendously to counterbalance the natural cynicism, pessimism and fatalistic type of attitudes that tend to arise. Sure, there may be millions upon the planet now who have had the experience of Bodhimind, or Christ consciousness ... to some degree (perhaps even several times, and many are learning to sustain this kind of awareness and approach to life, for the mutual benefit of all).

But it seems to me that one does not necessarily have to identify an experience as religious (or spiritual) in order for it to be precisely thus. I would even say that some of the most profound encounters with the Divine have occurred so matter-of-factly with some people, and have moved them from true Soul levels, that much of the otherwise-present religious, philosophical & ideological filtering which normally takes place is just bypassed altogether. Especially if one's background is more scientific, artistic, or political (in terms of vocation or strength of character and skillset) ... the notion that one has received inspiration from God, or from the Divine might not even really occur. Instead, a person simply puts into action the inspiring ideas or intentions.

I think what I'm occupied with right now, in terms of the Dream, is a considerable focus on anchoring ... whereby I can hopefully become a bit more goalfixed on keeping proper perspective, while working towards the Ideals I believe in one-pointedly. I suppose this is what most of us are trying to do, in the various ways prescribed by the Wayshowers of the Path we seek to tread ... but that part about "thou must first become the Path" (if thou would travel the Path) has turned out to be enormously more than I -- realized I was getting into. :p

Anyway, hope that makes some sense ...

Peace,

andrew
 
Hi Andrew

In the bigger picture, it may seem that there is nothing we can do to speed things up, as certain changes would appear fixed by the motion in the heavens ... but I'm convinced that a philosophy of `Think Globally, Act Locally' really is where need to continue to focus.

True, but we also must "feel" globally which is what we don't do. This point was driven home to me when I read the classic exchange between Simone Weil and Simone de Beauvoir during their college years.



Weil's fellow student, the feminist writer Simone de Beauvoir, wrote of Weil in her book Memoirs of a Dutiful Daughter:
She intrigued me because of her great reputation for intelligence and her bizarre get-up; "A great famine had broken out in China, and I was told that when she heard the news she had wept: these tears compelled my respect much more than her gifts as a philosopher. I envied her having a heart that could beat right across the world. I managed to get near her one day. I don't know how the conversation got started; she declared in no uncertain tones that only one thing mattered in the world: the revolution which would feed all the starving people of the earth. I retorted, no less peremptorily, that the problem was not to make men happy, but to find the reason for their existence. She looked me up and down: 'It's easy to see you've never been hungry,' she snapped.​
Granted such global feeling at her age allowed her to mistakenly assume that Communism had the answer to world hunger so she became a Communist. Simone de Beauvoir had the same intellectual knowledge but lacked the deeper emotional freedom to "feel" the human condition. How then to objectively think and feel globally?

I think what I'm occupied with right now, in terms of the Dream, is a considerable focus on anchoring ... whereby I can hopefully become a bit more goalfixed on keeping proper perspective, while working towards the Ideals I believe in one-pointedly. I suppose this is what most of us are trying to do, in the various ways prescribed by the Wayshowers of the Path we seek to tread ... but that part about "thou must first become the Path" (if thou would travel the Path) has turned out to be enormously more than I -- realized I was getting into. :p

I am the same which is why I refer to myself as pre-Christian. I've found it an awakening experience just to realize how far I am from it.

This raises the question of the human condition. Whenever I've brought it up on the Internet it is badly received for one reason or another. But for the gradual change we are referring to, it is something that has to be admitted regardless of the growls. Most will find the following article unimportant at best and offensive at worst. Yet the human condition has to be experienced in oneself for any realistic change beyond lip service.

CHAPTER 7: The Human Condition
Despite the purposes for human life, which are proclaimed by religion and, for the most part, nurtured as ideals in the breasts of men and women, the human condition is in reality characterized by suffering, war, oppression, poverty, vain striving, and disappointment. The starting point of Buddhism, the first of the Four Noble Truths, is that all life is ill--full of trouble and suffering. All religions recognize the correctness of this assertion in its broadest sense, that the human condition contradicts and defeats a person's true purpose as ordained by God or established by divine principles. The Christian understanding of man's inveterate tendency to do evil and turn away from God is found in the doctrine of Original Sin. The texts describing these and other comparable notions are brought together in the first section.

A second way to understand the human condition is to recognize human nature as the arena where the desires to do good and evil are in protracted conflict. This may be understood as reflecting a fundamental dualism within nature itself, or more commonly as a defect within the human heart. Due to this war within, it is hardly possible to fulfill the highest aspirations to goodness and holiness. A third way of describing the human condition is by the theme of ignorance. Specifically, most people pass their lives in ignorance of God, his laws, and his purposes. Blinded by illusion or caught up in false values of materialism and egoism, their striving is in the wrong direction, one that leads away from God and towards their own destruction. A related concept in the monotheistic faiths is idolatry, which can mean allegiance to such false gods as money, power, race, nation, or any partisan political cause when it is made an absolute end in itself. Then there is pride and egoism, a most insidious form of ignorance, by which a person falsely places himself over others.

How many are truly willing to admit the human condition in themselves and in the world? I've found bringing up St. Paul's description of himself in Romans 7 as the wretched man to be insulting if seen as indicative of the human condition. But as Jacob Needleman asserts in the preface to "Lost Christianity," it is something we have to confront:
What is needed is either a new understanding of God or a new understanding of Man: an understanding of God that does not insult the scientific mind while offering bread, not a stone, to the deepest hunger of the heart; an understanding of Man that squarely faces the criminal weakness of our moral will while holding out to us the knowledge of how we can strive within ourselves to become the fully human being we were meant to be -- both for ourselves and as instruments of a higher purpose.
But this is not an either/or. The premise --or rather, the proposal -- of this book is that at the heart of the Christian religion there exists, and has always existed, just such a vision of God and Man. I call it "Lost Christianity," not because it is a matter of doctrines and concepts that may have been lost or forgotten; nor even a matter of methods of spiritual practice that may need to be recovered from ancient sources. It is all that, to be sure, but what is lost in the whole of our modern life, including our understanding of religion, is something even more fundamental, without which religious ideas and practices lose their meaning and all to easily become the instruments of ignorance, fear, and hatred. What is lost is the experience of oneself -- myself, the personal being who is here, now, living, breathing, yearning for meaning, for goodness; just this person here, now, squarely confronting ones existential weaknesses and pretensions while yet aware, however tentatively, of a higher current of a higher current of life and identity calling to us from within ourselves. This presence to oneself is the missing element in the whole of the life of Man, the intermediate state of consciousness between what we are meant to be and what we actually are. it is perhaps the one bridge that can lead us from our inhuman past toward the human future.

Are we eventually capable of such honesty and the freedom from meaningless suffering it provides at the expense of the feeling of security from being part of the "Great Beast" and its meaningless sufferings? I hope so but I just don't know.
 
Jehovah has made provision to end all suffering.
the opportunity is open to people living today to have what Adam lost
human life, free from suffering, in a paradise earth.
What a generous provision that is!


It is comforting to learn that Jehovah does not cause suffering.

But does God truly care about what is going on in our lives?

The heartwarming answer is yes!

We know that Jehovah cares because his inspired Word tells us why he has allowed humans to pursue a bad course.

God’s reasons involve two issues: his sovereignty and the integrity of humans.

Because he is the almighty Creator, Jehovah is not obligated to tell us why he permits suffering. Yet, he tells us because he cares about us.


Consider further evidence that God cares about us. He "felt hurt at his heart" when badness filled the earth in the days of Noah. (Genesis 6:5, 6)

Does God feel differently today? No, for he does not change. (Malachi 3:6)

He detests injustice and hates to see people suffer.

The Bible teaches that God will soon undo all the harm that has resulted from human rule and from the influence of the Devil. Is that not convincing proof that God cares about us?


Religious leaders misrepresent God when they say that the tragedies we experience are his will.

On the contrary, Jehovah longs to end human suffering. "He cares for you," says 1 Peter 5:7.

That is what the Bible really teaches!
 
Suffering has two causes: i) it can be a punishment from Allah,
ii) it can be a test from Allah, the more righteous you are the harder your faith will be tested.

The solution to suffering is to turn back to Allah in repentance. He will take care of the rest.
 
Suffering has two causes: i) it can be a punishment from Allah,
.

It is comforting to learn that Jehovah does not cause suffering.


It is Jehovah’s purpose to have a perfect human family dwell on earth eternally.

God’s Word says: "The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it." (Psalm 37:29)
Yes, humankind was meant to enjoy everlasting life in Paradise on earth. That is God’s purpose, and it is what the Bible really teaches!

"The Rock, perfect is his activity."—DEUTERONOMY 32:4.


Jehovah is never the source of wickedness; he hates wickedness and cares for those who suffer unjustly.—Job 34:10; Proverbs 6:16-19; 1 Peter 5:7.


God will soon intervene in human affairs.


The Scriptures tell us: "In the days of those kings [human rulerships now existing] the God of heaven will set up a kingdom [in heaven] that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people [never again will humans rule the earth]. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms [present rulerships], and it itself will stand to times indefinite."—Daniel 2:44.



The vindication of Jehovah God’s sovereignty by means of the heavenly Kingdom is the Bible’s theme.

Jesus made this his foremost teaching. He said: "This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come."—Matthew 24:14.



When God’s rulership replaces man’s rule, who will survive and who will not?

At Proverbs 2:21, 22, we are assured: "The upright [who uphold God’s rule] are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it. As regards the wicked [who do not uphold God’s rule], they will be cut off from the very earth." The divinely inspired psalmist sang: "Just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more . . . But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, and they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace. The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it."—Psalm 37:10, 11, 29.






 
mee said:
It is comforting to learn that Jehovah does not cause suffering

So what are you trying to say? Jehovah doesn't punish anyone? Or punishment is not suffering? Both views are nonsense, one goes against the bible and the other goes against common sense.
 
Hello Abdllah

Animals such as dogs and horses often exprience great suffering before dying. Why does Allah punish them and why are they being tested?
 
So what are you trying to say? Jehovah doesn't punish anyone? Or punishment is not suffering? Both views are nonsense, one goes against the bible and the other goes against common sense.


Jehovah does not cause suffering.

Discipline​
or Punishment—Which?


Discipline as expressed in the Bible has many aspects—guidance, instruction, training, reproof, correction, and even punishment.

However, in each case, Jehovah’s discipline is motivated by love, and its goal is to benefit the recipient.

Jehovah’s corrective discipline is never for the sole purpose of punishment.​
 
Namaste Nick,

thank you for the post.

Hi Vaj

I find the whole question mind expanding. What is the potential for the aggregates that define our being and its suffering?


Awakening and Liberation though i wouldn't tend to phrase the question in such a manner as it involves a few a priori concepts which are somewhat out of place in the Buddha Dharma.

Is the potential inner unity or non existence?

neither, in my view. the Buddha Dharma teaches that all sentient beings have what we term "buddha nature" which basically indicates the ability of a being to Awaken and attain Liberation. of course we can change our view to less lofty heights and apply the idea of potential in a great many ways.


Buddhism seeks the non-existence of the old man.


that's a different conclusion than seems to be supported by the Suttas.

metta,

~v
 
Jehovah’s Long-Suffering. When Jehovah took Moses up into Mount Horeb and showed him some of his glory, he declared before Moses: "Jehovah, Jehovah, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abundant in loving-kindness and truth, preserving loving-kindness for thousands, pardoning error and transgression and sin,
but by no means will he give exemption from punishment." (Ex 34:5-7)

This truth about Jehovah’s slowness to anger was repeated by Moses, David, Nahum, and others.—Nu 14:18; Ne 9:17; Ps 86:15; 103:8; Joe 2:13; Jon 4:2; Na 1:3.
 
Back
Top