Death?

[Quahom1]

Jewish ethics are based around the idea of teshuva, returning, not on punishment for each misstep. There is no emphasis on a vengeful G!d, but instead the emphasis is on the attributes revealed at mount sinai, a compassionate, merciful and forgiving G!d. Within Judaism if a person "misses the mark" through some negative action, it is a matter of making good on the wrong that was done. There are other ways of making good on one's wrongs, such as charity. As I stated earlier in this thread, from a traditional perspective it is still possible that Hitler made it to Gan Eden if he was able to transform in Gehenna. There is also contemporary theology that rejects literal anthropomorphisms like G!d as Judge.

Further, your statement touches on the issue of theodicy which is a bit more layered and nuanced with multiple perspectives on the issue. This has only become more complex since the Holocaust as the perspective either of blaming the victim or that G!d was testing individuals was put on trial by the gas chambers.

-- Dauer

I came away with the erroneous thought based on this:

Psalm 79:5-7 ("How long, O LORD? Will you be angry forever? How long will your jealousy burn like fire? Pour out your wrath on the nations that do not acknowledge you, on the kingdoms that do not call on your name; for they have devoured Jacob and destroyed his homeland") or 79:10 ("Why should the nations say, `Where is their God?' Before our eyes, make known among the nations that you avenge the outpoured blood of your servants").

 

[dauer]

You can't understand Judaism from Tanach alone. It's not sola scriptura. The emphasis that the Talmud places and which Judaism maintains is on G!d as revealed at Har Sinai, and specifically leaving off the last bit of that passage. Nor does Judaism end with the Talmud. It continues to change and grow through to this day.

The particular passage that you quote is in the context of the wishes of Israel, not G!d's actions. Even where it does seem to speak of G!d's actions, "The Torah is speaking in the language of man."

It is similar to the way you could quote Genesis out of the context of the rest of Judaism and come to the false belief that Judaism supports 7 day creationism or quote various other passages to suggest that in Judaism G!d has a literal back or hand or face. All would be incorrect.

-- Dauer

edit: I wrote a post earlier in this thread on the evolving nature of Judaism here:

http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/death-9400-2.html#post157402

 

[Quahom1]

You can't understand Judaism from Tanach alone. It's not sola scriptura. The emphasis that the Talmud places and which Judaism maintains is on G!d as revealed at Har Sinai, and specifically leaving off the last bit of that passage. Nor does Judaism end with the Talmud. It continues to change and grow through to this day.

The particular passage that you quote is in the context of the wishes of Israel, not G!d's actions. Even where it does seem to speak of G!d's actions, "The Torah is speaking in the language of man."

It is similar to the way you could quote Genesis out of the context of the rest of Judaism and come to the false belief that Judaism supports 7 day creationism or quote various other passages to suggest that in Judaism G!d has a literal back or hand or face. All would be incorrect.

-- Dauer

edit: I wrote a post earlier in this thread on the evolving nature of Judaism here:

http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/death-9400-2.html#post157402

I understand there is more than the Torah, Tanach, Talmuhd and Mizhvat, however the sixth book of the Tanach is also clear that God is the God of vengeance, we are not to usurp that right. So, again, you see where my error lies. The books of Wisdom state such, the Books of History state such. Indeed, the Torah alludes to vengeance as not belonging to us, but to God. I'm not sure what the Mizhvat state about such.

Perhaps my assumption was uneducated, but it seems that God is making it clear that He has the last word, and we are to abide by.

v/r

Q

Oh, and I'll read the post you proscribed. I missed it.

 

[dauer]

That's the thing though, in the context of Jewish tradition it's not clear. According to Maimonides not only is saying that G!d is vengeful an incorrect interpretation of Torah, but even to say that G!d is good wouldn't be quite accurate. Saying G!d is good is, according to him, just saying that G!d is not bad.

-- Dauer

edit: and I want to clarify the main reason I'm pressing this is because this thread is in the Judaism section of the forums.

 

[Quahom1]

That's the thing though, in the context of Jewish tradition it's not clear. According to Maimonides not only is saying that G!d is vengeful an incorrect interpretation of Torah, but even to say that G!d is good wouldn't be quite accurate. Saying G!d is good is, according to him, just saying that G!d is not bad.

-- Dauer

edit: and I want to clarify the main reason I'm pressing this is because this thread is in the Judaism section of the forums.

Understood. Again, my apologies.

v/r

Q

 

[dailogue is the best]

Dialogue,
And yet there are many people in the world who get on fine without those concepts and may reach very advanced spiritual and moral levels of development.

I dont deny that. But since it works with others, then there is a great necessity behind its existence.

If G!d is most loving how can He fail to show mercy even to the greatest sinner?

Who said that? God forgives, but those who repent for what they have done, and repair what they have damaged. But those who INSIST on harming others, God punishes them. This out of His mercy: to end others' sufferings. It is as if saying, there is no need of jails, and prisons. Some people choose willingly and selfishly to harm others. Shall we sow them mercy, eventhough?!?

I'm familiar with Rabia's poetry. I enjoy it very much. And I understand your argument. I just disagree that it necessitates a heaven and a hell and see the application of heaven hell as comparable to the training of a donkey.

shall I understand that you disbelieve in hell/heaven just because it seems to you comparable to the training of a donkey?? I dont see it that way, though some people really make you feel that way. If one serves God just for the sake of heaven, not out of love to God, then I think he/she wont have any mentioned position to God. He/ she would be as you said A DONKEY.

God rewards us according to our intentions, and He knows all intentions, either declared or not. How can He reward those who worship Him without any love or DEVOTION?? Then we can compare those to donkeys which do their duties to get the carrots. Then after getting the carrots, they rebell, and showed their unfaithfulness.

The second reason I disagree with your argument about donkeys is that people use donkeys for their mere benifit. Poor donkeys end tired and with small carrots uncomparable to their great efforts. BUT, the situation is extremely different with those who choose to serve God. God ask people to serve Him for their mere benefit. Look at those who choose to serve God how happy they are, and how peace and love fly inside and around them. And after all these givings, God rewards them in the afterlife, for they defy their evil part, and conquer for that good part within. Do you see God's mercy, dauer?

heaven/ hell work for a short time with those who choose to serve God to find out God's mercy: to obtain heaven in earth and in afterlife.

Now if we're going with the traditional Jewish perspective, G!d's justice is always tempered by His mercy. That is why there is no Jewish hell. Gehenna is a temporary place. Those who could not be transformed by Gehenna mercifully have their souls extinguished rather than leave them in eternal torment. Those who are transformed by gehenna still make it to gan eden. In that sense it's not a place of punishment but of accelerated growth that is difficult, that is a place of suffering, because it is in the difficult times in our lives that we find the most opportunity for growth. There is also the possibility within the Jewish tradition that they might be reincarnated to work through their problems that way. And far be it the place of humans to say who goes where. It's possible, if Hitler could have been transformed in gehenna, that he could have made it into gan eden. And in gehenna I would think that any petty human need for vengeance on the part of those who have been harmed by others would be tempered away.

Aha...so there is a heaven/ and not in your tradition. By the way, we, too say "jannah" for heaven. Any way, what you said about gehenna and gan eden remebers me of how some Sufi scholars interpretd heaven/ hell. They stated that heaven manifests seeing God, and hell manifests the disability to see Him. They interpreted heaven/hell metaphorically.

For me, gehenna and gan eden presents the heaven/hell concepts, since those who enter gan eden have to pay for what they did no matter what forms it takes because on the other side, there is a Gehenna for those who are righteous.

 

[dailogue is the best]

Yes, I did it. Thank you, Will and dauer

 

[dailogue is the best]

That is your belief, not mine. As I told you in a previous post, I don't believe in a supernatural Creator. Maybe one exists, maybe not. I have found no reason to accept such a belief. If I die and meet the Creator, that will be proof for me. Until then I have no reason to make that type of assumption. I can experience myself as created in the sense that I am a byproduct of the universe. I can connect via that relational archetype if I so choose by projecting anthropomorphism back onto Reality. But that does not to me necessitate a supernatural Creator, only the human longing for connection with Being and the projection of human experiences to facilitate that connection. I apologize if some of the English I'm using now is a little difficult for you. Your English is very good and at the same time I also realize it is a second language for you. I just don't know how else to word what I have to say. If you are understanding what I am saying that is great. It makes dialogue easier.

I understand you very well, dauer. Don't worry. Besides, I like learning. consider me as a native speaker of English. Then, you will help me to promote my English.

Yet, I didnt understand what you meant by " supernatural creator"? Does it mean that you dont believe in the existence of God? "a byproduct of the universe": does it mean that you dont believe in God as our creator? "the human longing for a connection with Being": do you mean that religions are human made?


I would be so grateful if you explain all these, dauer?

 

[dauer]

Dialogue,

But since it works with others, then there is a great necessity behind its existence.

That the belief works for some people does not mean the belief is necessary. There may be another belief that would work just as well. The fact that some people have grown dependent on the belief does not in any way support an actual heaven or hell.

This out of His mercy: to end others' sufferings. It is as if saying, there is no need of jails, and prisons. Some people choose willingly and selfishly to harm others. Shall we sow them mercy, eventhough?!?

What does condemning one person to eternal suffering have to do with ending the suffering of others? And with what we know about the effects of both biology and environment on the individual, how can you be so ready to be merciless with someone who may only be ill?

shall I understand that you disbelieve in hell/heaven just because it seems to you comparable to the training of a donkey??

No and I never said that.

God rewards us according to our intentions, and He knows all intentions, either declared or not. How can He reward those who worship Him without any love or DEVOTION?? Then we can compare those to donkeys which do their duties to get the carrots. Then after getting the carrots, they rebell, and showed their unfaithfulness.

A donkey can love its master. It is still a donkey that has been trained to behave in a particular way. And your statement that G!d rewards according to intentions is your and not mine. I personally reject supernaturalism, no external G!d. Judaism usually places its central emphasis on action, not intention. If one person gives a lot of money out of a sense of obligation even though he didn't want to spare it and one person gave a tiny bit because he cares about others, the first did a greater deed. Your intentions won't feed the poor. Your money and time will even if you hate every minute of it and pass the minutes by fantasizing about an upcoming weekend of gambling in Vegas.

How can He reward those who worship Him without any love or DEVOTION??

For being good people regardless what beliefs they may have held or what their intentions were in life.

Then we can compare those to donkeys which do their duties to get the carrots. Then after getting the carrots, they rebell, and showed their unfaithfulness.

I don't think you give donkeys enough credit and I think you give humans too much credit. Humans can rebel and donkeys can show love and devotion to their masters.

The second reason I disagree with your argument about donkeys is that people use donkeys for their mere benifit. Poor donkeys end tired and with small carrots uncomparable to their great efforts. BUT, the situation is extremely different with those who choose to serve God. God ask people to serve Him for their mere benefit. Look at those who choose to serve God how happy they are, and how peace and love fly inside and around them. And after all these givings, God rewards them in the afterlife, for they defy their evil part, and conquer for that good part within. Do you see God's mercy, dauer?

I read that as you saying that it's not like donkeys because G!d has a much bigger carrot and a much bigger whip. People can be very happy without belief in G!d. They can contribute a lot to the world and they can do so without being motivated by a carrot or a whip. If a G!d exists who can't extend love to those who choose to think for themselves rather than submit to his authority it is a very sad thing indeed.

heaven/ hell work for a short time with those who choose to serve God to find out God's mercy: to obtain heaven in earth and in afterlife.

I don't consider it merciful for a G!d to say, "Follow me or suffer for eternity." I consider that sadistic and twisted. Especially when you consider the lack of proof for the Divine and the multitude of belief systems on the planet.

They stated that heaven manifests seeing God, and hell manifests the disability to see Him. They interpreted heaven/hell metaphorically.

That is a different interpretation. The nature of gan eden and gehenna, which you confused for one another, is not explicitly stated and there is a lot of interpretation on it. The writings on the matter are only considered inspired conjecture. As I said before, gehenna is seen as temporary. Someone who goes there is on their way to gan eden. It is just a matter of time. And the emphasis isn't on punishment. It's on transformation, like the tempering of a sword in a forge that strengthens it. Hitler could have ended up in Gan Eden, in the good place, after time spent in Gehenna to help him transform.

-- Dauer

I understand you very well, dauer. Don't worry. Besides, I like learning. consider me as a native speaker of English. Then, you will help me to promote my English.

Sounds good. I'm glad you're willing to ask clarifying questions. I don't want you to get the wrong idea about what I am saying. And I know if we're not understanding each other we'll just end up talking past each other.

Yet, I didnt understand what you meant by " supernatural creator"? Does it mean that you dont believe in the existence of God?

Not exactly. If we talk about supernatural vs natural, supernatural is something that goes beyond this world. I reject the idea that G!d is something beyond the natural world or, if you will, that there is a separate realm of Spirit.

"a byproduct of the universe": does it mean that you dont believe in God as our creator?

It means that, if I'm describing the world without offering my subjective, personal interpretation, I want to stick with the mechanical function of the world. I don't want to attribute a Creator in that sense. However, I can relate to that impersonal Reality by projecting an anthropomorphism onto it, in this case that of Creator. An anthropomorphism is describing something in human terms that is not human, like talking about G!d in human terms, attributing feelings or roles that are found among humanity. I think doing so can be a very helpful way to connect with the Divine but I don't think it actually describes the nature of the Divine.

"the human longing for a connection with Being": do you mean that religions are human made?

That's a complicated question. I see religion as a product of humanity, yes, and especially the forms that it takes I see as distinctly shaped by the cultures in which religions arise. Beliefs I see as arising within those cultures. However I see humanity and all of existence as a part of G!d so in that sense religion could be attributed to G!d as filtered through the human experience in many different environments.

 

[dailogue is the best]

Thank you for the clarification, dauer...

I enjoyed the dailogue with you, and with path of one.. It was an interesting subject.

 

[dailogue is the best]

I m back

Arent those two statements contradicting each other?

Then nothing. You die and that is it. Game over, man. Game over

Now if we're going with the traditional Jewish perspective, G!d's justice is always tempered by His mercy. That is why there is no Jewish hell. Gehenna is a temporary place. Those who could not be transformed by Gehenna mercifully have their souls extinguished rather than leave them in eternal torment. Those who are transformed by gehenna still make it to gan eden. In that sense it's not a place of punishment but of accelerated growth that is difficult, that is a place of suffering, because it is in the difficult times in our lives that we find the most opportunity for growth. There is also the possibility within the Jewish tradition that they might be reincarnated to work through their problems that way. And far be it the place of humans to say who goes where. It's possible, if Hitler could have been transformed in gehenna, that he could have made it into gan eden. And in gehenna I would think that any petty human need for vengeance on the part of those who have been harmed by others would be tempered away.

So, game isnt over once we die,dauer, right?

 

[dauer]

dialogue,

I answered that question in an earlier post in this thread here:

http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/death-9400.html#post157331 where I say:

the question posed to me was, "then what?" I took this as, "If there is no afterlife, then what?" I did not say that there is no afterlife. I said there is not necessarily an afterlife. If there is no afterlife then I die and that is it. If there is an afterlife, who knows?

I do not hold to the traditional Jewish views of the afterlife. I do not hold beliefs about what happens when I die. When I die, if there is an afterlife I will find out. If there isn't an afterlife, no biggie. I don't see any valid reason to form beliefs on what happens when I die until I have solid proof, that is, I am dead.

However, in response to the question "If there is no afterlife, what happens when we die?" The answer is simple because the question begins with the assumption that there isn't an afterlife. If the question assumed an afterlife it would be more difficult to answer because then there are more possibilities for the way things might turn out.

-- Dauer

 

[Postmaster]

AND, if you think that there is no afterlife, then what's God purpose behind creating this world??? Did He create it in vain???? for no purpose???

I'm with Dauer on this.. I really see this point of view and starting to appreciate it. No matter how much we question it will always be in speculation, unless someone actually visits heaven and comes back with proof I guess we will never know. Maybe were not intended to know, maybe its better we didnt.

Saying this, from what I've been reading in Kabbalah didn't the mystic Rabbi's claim to have ascended to heaven while still alive?