17th Angel
לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות
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Ok so as I thought you suggest a robot cannot be a christian but, how does this tie into me saying jesus was a good example? I don't see the connection.
M
mee
Guest
A more important issue for true Christians should be the propriety of venerating the instrument used to kill Jesus.
Whether it was an upright single torture stake, a cross, an arrow, a lance, or a knife, should such an instrument be used in worship?
Whether it was an upright single torture stake, a cross, an arrow, a lance, or a knife, should such an instrument be used in worship?
17th Angel
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M
mee
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Suppose a loved one of yours was brutally murdered and the weapon was submitted to the court as evidence.
Would you try to gain possession of the murder weapon, take photographs of it, and print many copies for distribution?
Would you produce replicas of the weapon in various sizes?
Would you then fashion some of them into jewelry?
Or would you have these reproductions commercially manufactured and sold to friends and relatives to be venerated?
Likely you would be repulsed at the idea! Yet, these very things have been done with the cross!
17th Angel
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lol... I love the watchtower examples lol.....
This isn't a freaking court of law... This is an act that happened two thousand years ago...
Be it a cross, a stake, a baseball bat, a bad hit of crack... Who cares? What I am meaning is slightly like your example.. Why would you want to show so much importance to it? It was just a tool of death, there is no importance in it... So why bother to try so hard to convince people it wasn't a cross it was a stake? It has no importance... There are far better things to focus on....
*knock knock* Is there anyone home?
This isn't a freaking court of law... This is an act that happened two thousand years ago...
Be it a cross, a stake, a baseball bat, a bad hit of crack... Who cares? What I am meaning is slightly like your example.. Why would you want to show so much importance to it? It was just a tool of death, there is no importance in it... So why bother to try so hard to convince people it wasn't a cross it was a stake? It has no importance... There are far better things to focus on....
*knock knock* Is there anyone home?
greymare
Well-Known Member
isnt it a symbol that jesus died for us, and a constant reminder. (of his sacrifice)????
17th Angel
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What's the bible say aboot symbols I wonder..
If HE AROSE AGAIN FROM THE DEAD? Yes, I would. And I'd wave those photos and reproductions in the faces of all who would have opposed my loved one. HA HA! Look at your worst efforts. Look at your tools of destruction. THEY AMOUNT TO NOTHING!!!
Evidently, you do not believe that Christ arose from the dead and, by death, defeated death.
N
Nick_A
Guest
With all due respect, usyally all this attitude does IMO is further misguided egotism and imaginary self importance which is what the teaching struggles against. Jesus didn't die to glorify our self importance but to allow us to experience our nothingness and profit from it with the help of the Spirit.
N
Nick_A
Guest
N
Nick_A
Guest
An example for what? Is Jesus life and death a secular example or transcendent example? A secular excample is the performance of a shell while a transcendent example radiates an inner living reality. A robot has no inner living reality.
N
Nick_A
Guest
I agree that secularism devolves the deeper sacred meanings of a sacred symbol for the purpose of manipulation and people are abused by the process. The point of the thread is to reveal the lunacy of not only this abuse but also the reactions to this abuse that attacks a symbol rather than the real problem which is defense of our collective stupidity.
The cross reveals recognition of the problem itself and the way in which Man can consciously grow in perspective leading to freedom from madness. So these "artists" and "experts" in self deception gleefully attack the symbol of human potential.
Our collective attitudes towards sacred symbols and in this case, the Cross, indicates something wrong and perhaps Chesterton has the right idea.
path_of_one
Embracing the Mystery
1. When the being in question overcame death and suffering, thereby showing triumph over violence and ignorance.
2. When the being in question, Himself, understood the cross as self-sacrificial. The instrument becomes a symbol of the willingness to give up self.
3. When the instrument is later discussed in scripture as a metaphor for responsibility for believers. That we can "take up our cross" and follow Christ. That we can "die to self, to live in Christ." Wearing a symbol of both death and resurrection/life reminds me to crucify my sins daily, to transform myself in the grace of the Spirit, to emulate Christ, and the promise that death will be a transformative event.
M
mee
Guest
What
Does the Cross Symbolize?
Long before the Christian era, crosses were used by the ancient Babylonians as symbols in their worship of the fertility god Tammuz. The use of the cross spread into Egypt, India, Syria, and China. Then, centuries later, the Israelites adulterated their worship of Jehovah with acts of veneration to the false god Tammuz.
The Bible refers to this form of worship as a ‘detestable thing.’—Ezekiel 8:13, 14.
The Gospel accounts of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John use the Greek word stau·ros´ when referring to the instrument of execution on which Jesus died. (Matthew 27:40; Mark 15:30; Luke 23:26) The word stau·ros´ refers to an upright pole, stake, or post.
so it seems that many who call them selves christians are also into idol worship.
The Bible refers to this form of worship as a ‘detestable thing.’—Ezekiel 8:13, 14.
The Gospel accounts of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John use the Greek word stau·ros´ when referring to the instrument of execution on which Jesus died. (Matthew 27:40; Mark 15:30; Luke 23:26) The word stau·ros´ refers to an upright pole, stake, or post.
so it seems that many who call them selves christians are also into idol worship.
Besides, the use of the cross in worship is no different from the use of images in worship, a practice condemned in the Bible. (Exodus 20:2-5; Deuteronomy 4:25, 26)
The apostle John accurately reflected the teachings of true Christianity when he admonished his fellow Christians with the words: "Guard yourselves from idols." (1 John 5:21)
This they did even when it meant facing death in the Roman arena.
path_of_one
Embracing the Mystery
1. I was never Jewish. So there is no reason that I should be under Jewish law. I follow Christ as a Gentile, but Christ never asked me to become a Jew or to give up my ancestors' ways, provided they were aligned with the Noahide Laws. Perhaps Jews are not supposed to have any images in worship, but this was not extended to everyone else on the planet. The Noahide Law only says that idolatry is forbidden.
2. I could care less what the Babylonians thought the cross meant. The cross is a symbol. It could mean one thing to one person and another thing to another person. That is the nature of symbols. I was never a Babylonian nor do I seek to be one now, so the way they used the cross is irrelevant to how I use it.
3. Idolatry is not the same thing as symbolism or the use of images in worship.
I neither worship the cross as a god, nor do have an "immoderate" attachment or devotion to it. Quite frankly, it's a symbol that wraps up a lot of my beliefs into one tidy package for contemplation and meditation. It's the finger pointing to the moon, not the moon.
I would say that many Christians, if they are guilty of idolatry, are far more guilty under definition #2- for having immoderate attachment to their church authoritative organization, to their country in the form of patriotism, and to their possessions in the form of consumerism and capitalism.
Not too many are really that immoderately devoted to the cross itself-- it is to their church organization that they are devoted.
The closest I get to breaking definition #2 is my devotion to my loved ones (family) and pets.
What are you immoderately attached or devoted to? The Bible says we should have none of that, save our attachment to God (and God is not a religious organization). I'm guessing the vast bulk of humans on earth struggle with immoderate attachment to something.
2. I could care less what the Babylonians thought the cross meant. The cross is a symbol. It could mean one thing to one person and another thing to another person. That is the nature of symbols. I was never a Babylonian nor do I seek to be one now, so the way they used the cross is irrelevant to how I use it.
3. Idolatry is not the same thing as symbolism or the use of images in worship.
I neither worship the cross as a god, nor do have an "immoderate" attachment or devotion to it. Quite frankly, it's a symbol that wraps up a lot of my beliefs into one tidy package for contemplation and meditation. It's the finger pointing to the moon, not the moon.
I would say that many Christians, if they are guilty of idolatry, are far more guilty under definition #2- for having immoderate attachment to their church authoritative organization, to their country in the form of patriotism, and to their possessions in the form of consumerism and capitalism.
Not too many are really that immoderately devoted to the cross itself-- it is to their church organization that they are devoted.
The closest I get to breaking definition #2 is my devotion to my loved ones (family) and pets.
What are you immoderately attached or devoted to? The Bible says we should have none of that, save our attachment to God (and God is not a religious organization). I'm guessing the vast bulk of humans on earth struggle with immoderate attachment to something.
And long before the Christian era, Germanic languages were used by ancient pagans. Therefore, English, as a Germanic language should NOT BE USED BY CHRISTIANS, using this reasoning. Likewise, Bibles (like the KJV) in English are bad.
I've got bad news to you. "Stavros" means "cross"--just ask any Greek--and this includes Greeks who are conversant in New Testament Greek.
Or it seems that others who call themselves Christians are also into the heresy of iconoclasm to a severe level.
N
Nick_A
Guest
You wrote:
That is the essence of a particular misunderstanding. Worshipping a symbol is an expression of secular belief often used for manipulation. Using a symbol as a tool of contemplation is a willingness to admit ignorance and the heartfelt need to "understand."
Worshipping is not the same as contemplation
greymare
Well-Known Member
Sorry, i didnt make myself better understood, NickA. Its only very recently that I "got it". (that is an understanding of Christ). But now, to me, the cross is a reminder of something very important. And one day, if finances allow I shall buy a little cross and wear it around my neck to remind myself of His sacrifice for me and you and everyone else. Its got nothing to do with our own self importance, that is completely irrelevant to me, ( I amnot important in the greater scheme of things). But, i can be to others ( I hope). but I digress, I heard a preacher recently talk about people that we dont like, you know, criminals, etc, and people different from how we view ourselves, etc. I was sitting there listening to what he had to say but also critizising his manner , what he was wearing etc, (mybad). When he said, "well, Jesus died for these people as well". THAT is what struck me............That was my epiphany, i guess. Simple little statement, that I may have heard a thousand times before, but that day. WHAM. right in the back of the head. (LOL). So to me, the cross, is a reminder of that, my revelation, that i am indeed small but still he did that for me. Thats all I got tosay about that.........
I dunno being made into a messiah and being slaughtered when you didnt ask for either OR going back to god, both seem pretty bad altought i recon you wouldd favor one over the other)