Question about Hajibs

It would seem, then, that if a woman wanted to avoid going through hell, then by this logic, it could be achieved by avoiding getting married
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A woman who is arrogant and will not obey her husband, yes such a woman should not get married.

Please tell us a little about the authority of the source you are quoting here.
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Of course, the full reference is as follows:

Sahih Bukhari, volume 1, book 2, number 28
 
Abdillah said:
A woman who is arrogant and will not obey her husband, yes such a woman should not get married.
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Kewl.


Of course, the full reference is as follows:

Sahih Bukhari, volume 1, book 2, number 28
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Thanks for posting the reference. :)
I notice it says "ungrateful to their husbands," not "disobedient."
Volume 1, Book 2, Number 28:

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
The Prophet said: "I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers were women who were ungrateful." It was asked, "Do they disbelieve in Allah?" (or are they ungrateful to Allah?) He replied, "They are ungrateful to their husbands and are ungrateful for the favors and the good (charitable deeds) done to them. If you have always been good (benevolent) to one of them and then she sees something in you (not of her liking), she will say, 'I have never received any good from you."​
 
Abdillah said:
Islam is neither left nor right, neither feminist nor chauvinist. Islam is the middle path. In the time of the Prophet (alaihi salatu wa salam) women were treated like dogs, which is wrong. But now they are treated like gods, which is even worse. Now they say womens should be allowed to disobey their husband, and even control the decisions of the household. They say women should have no restrictions, they can do whatever they want, wear whatever clothes they like, even if it is inappropriate. This is one extreme we are living in which our Prophet (alaihi salatu wa salam) would never approve of. Remember he said that the majority of hell will be women because they disobey their husbands and they are ungrateful. It is in these days that we can truly see how right he was.
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middle ground you say? No feeling of chauvinist???... You are clearly contradicting yourself....

Oh my women? Making decisions? With their inferior little brains? Oh my what next!!! I know many women who I would put faith in their decisions waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay before I'd choose to turst yours....
 
I have not studied Islam as deeply as I could, but I have had some study in it through both college courses in comparative Western religion and my own readings. I think what is difficult for me in understanding Islam is that it seems quite tied to certain cultural practices at times, and there seems to be a lot of internal contention about what it is to be a good Muslim. In this regard, I suppose it is quite a bit like Christianity, with which I am more familiar.

The treatment and "place" of women in society, and the modest dress code, is one such issue- and a very big one to me, when I try to understand Islam. The wearing of hijab does not bother me in the least. Although I do believe all women should be given freedom of choice in their dress, I do not believe women who choose modest dress such as the hijab are necessarily oppressed. I think it is at least as oppressive to live with the Western world's constant and glaring media-based and consumerist imperatives to be slimmer, younger, prettier, etc. as it would be to have a dress code. However, I do not think that dress codes should be mandatory, as that would seem to mandate something that, even in Islam, should be a personal moral choice, and a demonstration of personal commitment and faith.

That said, I find hijab and Muslim clothing in general to be stunningly beautiful, as well as comfortable. I've entertained off and on for about two years going "plain" as Quakers do, but one thing that turns me off about Quaker plain dress (which you can see at Quaker Jane - Limiting your palette in an addle-pated world. Plain dress, quakers and spirituality.) is that I find it, well, plain. :eek: I've tried it once or twice and it feels uncomfortable (too stiff, too historical, too HOT on a warm day) and it just doesn't fit my personality. I'm artsy. I don't think it's a problem to love color and embroidery and such- God gave us these gifts (in my opinion) and the appreciation of beauty, and Nature is filled with beauty and color and vibrancy. I have some Muslim clothing I bought from Shukr online (though no hijab) and I find them lovely, professional, and very comfortable. If I ever wore a head covering, I'd go with a scarf- just more comfy to me than a cap. However, so far I just don't feel led to wear head covering and I don't see my hair as that enticing. On bad hair days or when I'm running late though, I can definitely see the value. ;)

At any rate, I wanted to point out for Serenity that traditional dress codes and concerns with modesty and/or plainness are not only Islamic issues and there is a great deal of variety in Christianity. In fact, some Christian denominations, and many individuals, do not see Jesus as God, as well. It is sad to me that some Christian churches shove people outside the community due to differences in how they interpret Jesus. I find it more important to follow Jesus' life and teachings than to define "who" Jesus is relative to God. For me, it is sufficient to see God as the Being Beyond and Within All- that God is too big for me to comprehend or define. Jesus showed us the perfect human life, and His own words were more about encouraging action and right behavior than specific belief. As a Christ-follower (most closely like Quaker, but with more Episcopalian practice), I do not find Muslim ideas about God troubling. In fact, I find them inherently understandable- God is One- and I am too tiny to comprehend God.

However, much of Islam simply doesn't work for me culturally. I can't grasp it and it wouldn't even work in my household. For example, the idea about obeying one's husband. My husband would find that abhorrent. He doesn't want to be obeyed. He likes us to lead our household together, as a team. We do not find it very difficult to make decisions together through discussion and weighing the options and compromising. We are equal partners in intelligence and ethics, and we are each other's source for advice and problem-solving. I can't imagine forcing all the responsibility for decisions onto him. It seems... lazy. Because he doesn't want it. He wants shared responsibility. And I am happy to shoulder my half of the burden. We walk together, hand in hand, so that each of us is there for the other if either should stumble.

In a culture or marriage where men want all the decision-making responsibility and women don't want any of it, it seems that perhaps that would work just as well. But it seems to me that every marriage is going to be unique because you have new and different people in it. And to have one idea about how decisions get made, or something like that- that seems very restrictive for both men and women, and seems to ignore our fundamental diversity, which is given to us by God.

At any rate, hopefully I have not offended any by my ramblings. I just wanted to put forth some of my thoughts and offer up some musings on the matter as a woman from the US who is not Muslim and yet doesn't find modest dress to be an issue of freedom. I believe women should be free to dress however they choose, and no woman should be judged or given less opportunity because she wears hijab or modest dress.
 
Serenity said:
am not sure if this is the right place to post this or not
i am going to start wearing the hajib as i feel i would like to be modest
i am also wicca but have started to want to learn more about Islam

one thing i dont understand i have seen from pictures of some women who wear the Hajib with there hair line showing and other not
this is confussing to me as am unsure if it is aloud or not

can some one please tell me

Serenity
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Assalamualaikum.

I am a newbie here. Please let me present my understanding of wearing hijab.

To a man lust or passion starts from the eyes that is the sight, while to a woman it starts from the touch or skin. Some man loves to see the sight of a woman’s figure, some gets excited just admiring the hair, some like to ogle the bums, some eyed the beautiful necks, while most salivate at the sight of the breasts. While in the case of women, their lust begin with the touch. Hence the reason we must not bare ourselves to men as quoted in the Quran.

By using hijab, we are not only protecting ourselves as a woman, but we are also protecting society. Since the male who is looking at us are the sons, the fathers, the brothers, the uncles, the husbands of society, we are contributing to the well being of the society in general, by protecting ourselves.

And for men, by not ogling women, who are the daughters, the wives, the sisters, the mothers or aunts, they themselves are contributing a big share of security to the society.

Anykind of garments that are opaque, not figure hugging, covers the necessary part of a woman’s assets, are permissible. To me covering the face is too much. Islam is simple, only those who do not understand make it difficult. Yes we can cover our faces if our faces are too beautiful that not only attract men’s attention but also women. It then can cause fitnah. Or perhaps if the faces are too hideous that will invite insults and humiliation, then one should cover the face.

I think some women cover their faces because they followed blindly what the Arab women in the desert were doing. There is another reason for these women to cover their faces as the fine sands in the deserts can be a menace to the face.

Allahu’alam. Allah knows best.
 
asalam aleykum Serenity

Congratulations on your first hijab and I hope you are still enjoying wearing it.

I have recently moved from wearing hijab to niqab (face veil) as a religious choice and must say I am delighted with my choice. The strange thing is the reactions of some Muslims.

I recently travelled to London and wore my niqab there, I had a business meeting with an arab Muslim man and he asked me to take it off .... saying it scared him ... took me a while to stop laughing.

Whatever you choose to wear please do so for Allah (G-d) and not for fashion, culture or any other reason. Allah asks us to be modest, not to entice the opposite sex and to keep our beauty for our husbands ... if you can choose hijab for that reason then I am delighted and my prayers are with you.

One of the greatest difficulties in these discussions is that the english translations of the Quran often mislead us because they do not accurately portray the arabic meaning. Having studied the issue of hijab for some time I have found the western translations of Quran and hadith to be a little lacking in meaning. I have no doubt now that we are required to cover all but our face and hands, beyond that covering the face removes any possibility of unwanted attention and is therefore my choice.

As for someones comments about people that cover their faces having something to hide .... you are right, I have myself to hide and keep only for my husband, there are no dark or sinister reasons.
 
sorry i have not wrote back
a lot of things have been going on for myself and my family

i when and seen my family wearing the hajib they made me feel that what i want dont count what i feel dosnt eather :(
they can understand why i want to wear the hajib or why i wish to know more about Islam
i have talked to them till am blue in the face was told if i wore the hajib in front of them they wont let me see my nieces
i know there not my own children ( i dont have any kids ) but i helped raise them from a very young age and my mum would use them ageist me
my mum has custody of them as my sister was to ill to take care of them

so at the moment am no longer wearing the hajib

i feel so alone as well i dont have anyone to talk to about this face to face

:(
Serenity
 
Serenity said:
sorry i have not wrote back
a lot of things have been going on for myself and my family

i when and seen my family wearing the hajib they made me feel that what i want dont count what i feel dosnt eather :(
they can understand why i want to wear the hajib or why i wish to know more about Islam
i have talked to them till am blue in the face was told if i wore the hajib in front of them they wont let me see my nieces
i know there not my own children ( i dont have any kids ) but i helped raise them from a very young age and my mum would use them ageist me
my mum has custody of them as my sister was to ill to take care of them

so at the moment am no longer wearing the hajib

i feel so alone as well i dont have anyone to talk to about this face to face

:(
Serenity
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serenity,

first and foremost, don't care about what other people want because you are never going to satisfy them. nor will anyone ever understand you. only God will. instead, whenever they need you, be there for them in all those difficult moments. show them through your actions that God's way is a way full of beauty and wisdom. don't feel sad. the path will be difficult, but it will make you a better person. it will build your character. don't back down. stare adversity in the face, woman. be strong. yes, be strong.

but please remember, don't be overrighteous. especially with your family. in my personal opinion, wearing a hajib in front of your family isn't really necessary. public i understand. but family? not so much. there is a verse in the Quran that states that its ok not to wear one around your family, but i it escapes me at the moment. perhaps some of our muslim friends could assist us? i would think that God would prefer you remain steadfast and strong in the face of opposition. and always remember as well... you are never alone, ok?
 
LeoSalinas22 said:
serenity,

first and foremost, don't care about what other people want because you are never going to satisfy them. nor will anyone ever understand you. only God will. instead, whenever they need you, be there for them in all those difficult moments. show them through your actions that God's way is a way full of beauty and wisdom. don't feel sad. the path will be difficult, but it will make you a better person. it will build your character. don't back down. stare adversity in the face, woman. be strong. yes, be strong.

but please remember, don't be overrighteous. especially with your family. in my personal opinion, wearing a hajib in front of your family isn't really necessary. public i understand. but family? not so much. there is a verse in the Quran that states that its ok not to wear one around your family, but i it escapes me at the moment. perhaps some of our muslim friends could assist us? i would think that God would prefer you remain steadfast and strong in the face of opposition. and always remember as well... you are never alone, ok?
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your words are so inspiring Leo. God bless you.

The verse you talked about is the following:"[24:31] And tell the believing women to subdue their eyes, and maintain their chastity. They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary. They shall cover their chests, and shall not relax this code in the presence of other than their husbands, their fathers, the fathers of their husbands, their sons, the sons of their husbands, their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters, other women, the male servants or employees whose sexual drive has been nullified, or the children who have not reached puberty. They shall not strike their feet when they walk in order to shake and reveal certain details of their bodies. All of you shall repent to GOD, O you believers, that you may succeed"

You should stand for your belief, Serenity. By the process of time, they will understand you. What the use of satisfying others if one isnt satisfied.

I believe that one cant give others happiness if he/ she isnt happy in the first place.

Dont forget that it is God's satisfaction that we should seek:"GOD and His messenger are more worthy of pleasing, if they are really believers."(9:62)

Be sure if you please God and be patient for His own sake, God will turn you family's hearts towards you by love, compassion and understanding. God is all powerfull. You are in test. Be strong, dear. And may Allah give you strenght, and wisdom to overcome all the obstacles from your way.

My prayers, Serenity:)
 
Muslimwoman said:
I recently travelled to London and wore my niqab there, I had a business meeting with an arab Muslim man and he asked me to take it off .... saying it scared him ... took me a while to stop laughing.
.
.
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As for someones comments about people that cover their faces having something to hide .... you are right, I have myself to hide and keep only for my husband, there are no dark or sinister reasons.
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So you've flouted our society's conventions why should we respect yours?

qj
 
Serenity said:
sorry i have not wrote back
a lot of things have been going on for myself and my family

i when and seen my family wearing the hajib they made me feel that what i want dont count what i feel dosnt eather :(
they can understand why i want to wear the hajib or why i wish to know more about Islam
i have talked to them till am blue in the face was told if i wore the hajib in front of them they wont let me see my nieces
i know there not my own children ( i dont have any kids ) but i helped raise them from a very young age and my mum would use them ageist me
my mum has custody of them as my sister was to ill to take care of them

so at the moment am no longer wearing the hajib

i feel so alone as well i dont have anyone to talk to about this face to face

:(
Serenity
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Well I can only suggest you to substitute hijab with some thing that looks more European than Arab/Turk, but at the same time is sharia-complaint. Or else drop this idea completely for a few months. And I dont think wearing hijab inside the home is a good idea either. So rather than creating domestic hurricanes, it will be better to spend more time quietly studying islam. Too much emotional issues with the family will only prevent you from studying Islam intellectually. At the end of the day, if Islam is the way for you, it will give you enough certitude to counter anything thrown your way, both emotional and intellectual.

You are seen as a cultural/religious threat, so your mother isnt exactly wrong when she tries to save her next generation from this onslaught. But actions speak louder than words. So try to convince your near family with your actions rather than words. Make them realise that its something spiritual, & is changing you for the better.

BTW, what do your husband & sister think about this change, & are there any muslims around where you live?
 
path_of_one said:
However, much of Islam simply doesn't work for me culturally. I can't grasp it and it wouldn't even work in my household. For example, the idea about obeying one's husband. My husband would find that abhorrent. He doesn't want to be obeyed. He likes us to lead our household together, as a team. We do not find it very difficult to make decisions together through discussion and weighing the options and compromising. We are equal partners in intelligence and ethics, and we are each other's source for advice and problem-solving. I can't imagine forcing all the responsibility for decisions onto him. It seems... lazy. Because he doesn't want it. He wants shared responsibility. And I am happy to shoulder my half of the burden. We walk together, hand in hand, so that each of us is there for the other if either should stumble.

In a culture or marriage where men want all the decision-making responsibility and women don't want any of it, it seems that perhaps that would work just as well. But it seems to me that every marriage is going to be unique because you have new and different people in it. And to have one idea about how decisions get made, or something like that- that seems very restrictive for both men and women, and seems to ignore our fundamental diversity, which is given to us by God.
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In any love based relationship between man & woman, its more or less natural that man assumes the position of provider, while woman that of organiser & caretaker. And this is exactly what this verse is talking about. Here is Muhammad Asad's translation

MEN SHALL take full care of women with the bounties which God has bestowed more abundantly on the former than on the latter,* and with what they may spend out of their possessions. And the righteous women are the truly devout ones, who guard the intimacy which God has [ordained to be] guarded.**

*Lit., "more on some of them than on the others".- The expression qawwam is an intensive form of qa’im ("one who is responsible for" or "takes care of" a thing or a person). Thus, qama ala l-mar’ah
signifies "he undertook the maintenance of the woman" or "he maintained her" (see Lane VIII, 2995). The grammatical form qawwam is more comprehensive than qa’im, and combines the concepts of physical maintenance and protection as well as of moral responsibility: and it is because of the last-named factor that I have rendered this phrase as "men shall take full care of women".
**Lit., "who guard that which cannot be perceived (al-ghayb) because God has [willed it to be]
guarded".

The verse says absolutely nothing about women being or not being a part of domestic decision making. It only says that its incumbent upon men to provide for the family, & incumbent upon women to show reverence for this hard work. Man cant force a woman to work, & woman should take good care of the family, & save her fom other men.

As far as decision making is concerned, we have got two examples. Muhammad & Khadija, & Muhammad & Ayesha. Khadija had always been a moral, emotional, financial & intellectual support for Muhammad. Ayesha though young, was nowhere near a robotic wife. Details of her married life are available in Hadith books. She was among the first of the great scholars of Islam. So both of them had a huge hand in the domestic decision making process.

Its just that when husband & wife reach different decisions, & both decisions are irreconciliable, then the final decision would be that of the man, since he is the one who is providing for the family. And if the going gets tough, its he who will have to face most of it.

However, I do not think that dress codes should be mandatory, as that would seem to mandate something that, even in Islam, should be a personal moral choice, and a demonstration of personal commitment and faith.
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See, dresscode is a thing that is supposed to exist in an Islamic society. When a thing is necessary, then it has to be mandatory too. When people are left to do what they want to do, they never do what they are supposed to. Take a look at this.

"All employees are supposed to be here at 8. But if they arnt here till 8, I am Ok with that too.---Your employer."

How many employees will be there at 8?
 
wil said:
Namaste qj,

And which societal convention is this that you feel offended and flouted?

In your neck of the woods does one not have the right to dress as they choose?
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In my neck of the woods chavs wear hoodies and baseball caps to cover their identities when they go robbing so they can't be recognized on CCTV. That's the reality of life today in the UK.

It's not that I'm particularly offended, I'm just putting the question from the standpoint of the social conventions that exist where I am.

Actually I do appreciate the culture which gives rise to the behaviour of Muslim women in this matter and even find their behaviour quite admirable.

But I think it only fair to point out that this is by no means universal and the first indication they may be given - I'm sorry to say - may be a punch on the nose.

qj
 
my husband and sister is very supportive they say if it what makes me happy
that my mother is wrong but my sister has to becareful if she voices this my mother will stop her seeing her own children

today am meeting my mother in public and am wearing my hajib
since my last post i talked with my husband and he thinks i should do what i feel is right

i dont know any other muslims were i stay .
 
I think its a cultural thing... the hair and legs being sexually stimulating.. I was doing some research on Japanese Geishas after reading the book Memoirs of a Geisha and these women wore their Kimono in a way that would be alluring and seductive.. the back of the collar would flare out a bit to show the back of the neck.. They would pour tea showing a bit of the underside of the arm and these things would be stimulating...

I think Western men are too used to seeing hair and legs and cleavage to be numb to most of it. So I would not travel to a muslim country and wear shorts and a tank top... it would be like walking around naked in the US.
 
Faithfulservant said:
I think its a cultural thing... the hair and legs being sexually stimulating.. I was doing some research on Japanese Geishas after reading the book Memoirs of a Geisha and these women wore their Kimono in a way that would be alluring and seductive.. the back of the collar would flare out a bit to show the back of the neck.. They would pour tea showing a bit of the underside of the arm and these things would be stimulating...

I think Western men are too used to seeing hair and legs and cleavage to be numb to most of it. So I would not travel to a muslim country and wear shorts and a tank top... it would be like walking around naked in the US.
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Salam, Faithfulservant

Welcome in Islam board:).

A lot of people think that the dress code in Islam is just a cultural thing, while it isnt. There are clear Quranic verses and some hadith which clearly talk about the neccesity of hiding all the body except face and hands.

You wanted to say by your examples that there is no necessity of hiding hair and legs since the westerners are too used to that, and hence the excuse of "seduction" becomes out of question.

The matter isnt as you thought, Faithfulservant. It isnt just an issue of seduction, though it is an important part in itself. But it is a matter of who to decide in this matter or any other matter? cultures hold different opinions: which one shall I follow, and keep stick to? THAT'S THE QUESTION.

How? in some countries, it is noraml to dress very short, tight clothes. In other countries, they wear just black baggy garments. and the examples of clothing are different from one country to another. The question: who is the best to decide what I shall wear?

Another example of behavioral diffrence is that in some countries, man and woman greet each others by just saying "hello", while others greet each others by kissing hands or face. The question: who is the best to decide how I shall greet man? (this is just an example)

The question, Faithfulservant, is WHO IS THE BEST TO DECIDE IN ALL MY BEHAVIOURS /CLOTHING/ AND EVERYTHING? who is to decide in such matters: a human being?!! a human being who is inaflible and of short, incomplete vision and sight?!!!

A devout believer submits to all God's teachings because he/she knows that God is the best to decide in any action. He is all-Wise and all-knowing.
 
quakeyjase said:
So you've flouted our society's conventions why should we respect yours?

qj
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Because "our society's conventions" are exactly that, our society. I am British not Arabic and can trace my family back for hundreds of years in the UK. So why should I not have the freedom of choice to dress as I choose that we always speak about and are so proud of?

Even if I was an Arab Muslim, why should my choice of dress be seen as flouting conventions ... comparing a religion form of dress to robbing hoodies is just a little offensive really, I feel sure many people wear hoodies and don't steal ... actions should be what we are judged on and not dress.
 
as salam aleykum sister Serenity

It is a very difficult situation and of course you feel torn between your faith and your family. It is easy for people to say put your faith first and be strong but you have spent all your life with your family and they are difficult to reject.

Whenever I used to say to my family I am Muslim they simply said no you're not and changed the subject, they refused to acknowledge it for a long time but that neither lessened my faith or my relationship with my family.

It takes work and understanding on your part but it is possible to find a way to follow your faith and stay close to your family.

May I suggest you try wearing your hijab outside the home and removing it when you are with your close family, so when you enter the house simply take it off as you would a coat or hat. You only need to cover your head when you are with a man you could legally one day marry.

When I first started travelling in hijab I was really scared about airport security so I went to Al Azhar to ask about it, the Sheikh explained that hijab is required for our protection and not as a statement of faith ... therefore if I feel threatened in any way (even verbally) by wearing hijab then I should take it off when I travel but wear clothes that cover as much of my body as I can.

This time last year I would remove my hijab during traveling and now I travel in niqab .... confidence comes with time is all I am saying.

As for your family and their attitude, it may not be a popular stance but it is realistic ... simply do not discuss your faith with them to begin with, say it is a personal matter and talk about normal family issues. In time ask them what they are afraid of, they probably believe a lot of the propaganda and by patiently explaining the truth about Islam they may begin to accept as my family have done. Just don't overdo it and talk about nothing else but Islam, your choice is not their choice and so they do not have the interest that you do.

Be strong at heart and patient, there is a way forward and a way to follow your faith and stay among your family. My prayers are with you sister.
 
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