17th Angel
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Is it wrong?
- Thread starter 17th Angel
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Right to the heart's point...
Thanks for the replies!
I just find my eyes wander and tend to look towards women and certain areas... And It is real hard not to, it's like an auto pilot happens without thinking...I straight away look away but it happens...
I think you'll find it's a natural biological reaction to "notice" other people, especially of the gender you are most attracted to.
I would suggest it's a natural reaction in males at least - but there's a big difference between noticing and lusting.
If a woman were to walk through out small town high street wearing nothing but flimsy underwear, I'm sure most of the men would notice and look. However, whether any would stand there actively lusting - I don't think so.
2c.
Dream
Well-Known Member
Ecclesiastes 7:13-18 Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked? 14 In the day of prosperity be joyful, and in the day of adversity consider; yea, God hath made the one side by side with the other, to the end that man should not find out anything that shall be after him. 15 All this have I seen in my days of vanity: there is a righteous man that perisheth in his righteousness, and there is a wicked man that prolongeth his life in his evil-doing. 16 Be not righteous overmuch; neither make thyself overwise: why shouldest thou destroy thyself? 17 Be not overmuch wicked, neither be thou foolish: why shouldest thou die before thy time? 18 It is good that thou shouldest take hold of this; yea, also from that withdraw not thy hand: for he that feareth God shall come forth from them all.
path_of_one
Embracing the Mystery
That's an interesting point, Netti. I think you're on to something, but it does seem that lust within marriage is considered fine. I'm not sure there is much difference between the sexual attraction to your spouse (which can be a very spiritual thing, and is recognized as such in some religions, though not so much in Christianity) and lust.
I think within certain confines that protect society and individual psyche, lust is an acceptable animal drive toward procreation and pleasure. But without the limitations, it hurts individuals and society. The limitations are variously defined depending on the society, but that all societies have limitations is indicative of need.
I suppose I'm wondering what the difference between lust and sexual attraction is, if it is for your spouse. Additionally, if lust is necessarily a physical thing for most people, because for me it is very much a response to my perceived sense of another person's energy... a sense of their spirit. This is how my husband and I know we'll find each other "physically" attractive long after we're not physically attractive anymore-- the attraction is stemming from the energy, the spirit of the other person, which is something each of us sense. But to me, that's a distinctive attraction from love and is a distinctly sexual attraction. Furthermore, it is not an aesthetic appreciation of this other person's beauty, but rather some sort of magnetism that pulled us together originally and keeps us coming back to each other...
So I wonder if what for some is lust is for others something else? Or where we all draw the line? Is it sex with people who you shouldn't have sex with (or thoughts of this)? Is it animalistic drives of being human? Or something else- that is the problem?
If God is in all things, including sex and procreation and all that... is sexual attraction bad and/or unspiritual or is it only a problem with misuse?
Dondi
Well-Known Member
path of one said:
I think there is a fine line between sexual atrraction and lust, even in a marriage relationship. If it is obvious that my wife is not in the mood, yet I continue to make advances, I'm crossing over that line. It becomes lust, because I'm thinking purely for my own satisfaction. It's then time to stop. I mean, even if she consents, it's not the same, because it's out of obligation. There's a difference between making love and having sex. Oh sure, there is that verse that says the wife's body belongs to the husband and the husband's body belongs to the wife, yada yada, but the experience will lack that element of emotional and spiritual connection that elevates the experience to a higher level where each person is there for the other, and not just for themselves. When that happens: YOWZA!
Agreed. Lust is "desire" out of balance within a marriage, and inappropriate desire outside a marriage.
Netti-Netti
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So it's ok to be a little bit wicked?
That could be when people start to take each other for granted, which is not a good sign.
To my way of thinking, lust bespeaks an absence of real love - not only for the person who is the object, but also for G-d. Lust is a kind of idolatry in the form of a misplaced emphasis, a distortion of our normal capacity for healthy and uplifting physical attractions. It's basically making the quest for sexual pleasure more important than it should be... to the point where there is little or no room for spiritual emotions by which we stay in touch with our divine nature.
Lust also indicates that are spiritual heart is closed and we are unable to recognize the other as a manifestation of Divine Perfection. That's when we have reduced them to their physical self; they're just an object for our own gratification. When we fail to recognize the other as a manifestation of Divine Perfection, we've stopped relating to them as embodiments of Soul, just as we have done in relation to ourself.
In short, lust is one form of idolatry among others that causes us to forget G-d or it indicates that we have in fact forgotten G-d.
When idolatry occurs in the interpersonal realm, you can see it on a continuum. Interpersonal violence like sexual/physical abuse or psychological abuse really represent a failure to keep sight of G-d because selfishness has evolved into abusiveness. Just because a spouse puts up with conduct that is not cherishing doesn't mean it's not abusive.
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Veneration of an empty shell is idolatry. See Colossians 3:5
<edit>
Ha! we were posting about the same thing at the same time.
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
It takes a whole lot of mutual love and trust to be able to push each others buttons, bringing out the worst in each other (animalistic part, lust being just one aspect of this,) so that each can get a handle on their worst attributes and manage them so that the better attributes can shine through. (Self-control is very attractive [and sexy!
] )Same neurotransmitters released during prayer, if I recall aright.
Netti-Netti
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Colossians 3:5 refers to the need to overcome our "earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed." My reaction: G-d wants to see the fruition of his Creation in the world and needs our help to make it happen. From that standpoint, a preoccupation with our own attachments to the exclusion of G-d's directives is a problem if for no other reason than that the preoccupation is a distraction.
Previously Kim wrote:
My attempt to see things Buddhistically would suggest that this is part of the problem. There is also this aspect: wrong intention is a poison in my system that can affect my functioning in other ways - not just by causing me to think of ways to act in accordance with that wrong intention. For one thing, impurities can be a distraction that keep me from recognizing G-d's directives in various areas. I think the Buddhists would lump negative emotions in with various idolatries.
I think lust is a form of attachment that is analogous to greed (lust for money and stuff). There is nothing wrong with taking care of material needs using a system of currency. Making money and material things the center of your life is a form of idolatry.
It may be helpful to see these "earthly nature" things as distractions rather than as being inherently "evil."
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Well yes, they are distractions. They will also pass away and lose their power if you treat them as such.
Netti-Netti
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Suggestions for how to do this?...
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Recognize it and know it for what it is. Watch it rise, watch it fade away. It is only temporary.
Francis king
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...I have a friend who likes dwarf porn...
17th Angel
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..... Good for them?
Netti-Netti
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This sounds like a philosophy of human interaction of sorts. Can you cite some theorists who have published on the subject?
Dream
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Thank you for that response, although I know I'm preaching to the choir!Netti-netti said:
We are to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with God.*1 It is impossible not to be slightly wicked without ruining your life according to the quote from Ecclesiastes *2 -- in other words its practically impossible for humans. It is a concept repeated many places in the gospels and letters. We are advised to be aware of our negative tendencies and attempt to overcome them by filling our time and minds wisely,*3 which is what 'living by the Spirit' means. In this way we publically exhibit the spirit of Christ within us, proving it is separate from and at war with tendencies towards error.*4 This is important, because as we function by the spirit of Christ within we will actively destroy all arguments put forward for living by mere regulations. Such regulations appear to be wise but are actually powerless for curbing our weaknesses. *5
- Micaiah 6:8
- Ecclesiastes 7:13-18
- John 3:5-10, Mathew 7:16, Gal 5:22-25, Rom 8:12-14
- Matthew 10:15-20, John 17:17-19, Romans 7:14-25
- John 6:45-49, Col 2:20-23, 2 Cor 1:12