prophets and salvation

[BlaznFattyz]

if Jehovah and Jesus were the same, how could one of them be aware of things of which the other was not?

As the Word of God, He knows all things with the Father. As Jesus being born a man, he humbled himself and was born under the law and made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men and obedient to the law, even to the point of death on the cross. It is in this state that he dealt with the limitations of being a man which is not knowing all things. However, there are times, for the glory of God, that Christ knows people's hearts, their secrets, and the future. After his ressurrection he is exalted back to heaven, glorified back to the Father in a state of knowing all things, as he proclaims he is Alpha and Omega. There he is Lord God and Saviour on the throne with power and glory.

 

[Faithfulservant]

Yes, you are true in your questions. Why didnt Jesus say to those who believed in him not to worship him? a reasonable question, Faithfulservant. YET, if I assume that it means that it indicates Jesus's declaration of himself as God, then I m infringing Jesus's teaching which are clearly declaring that we should worship God only:

"Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them; and he said to him, ‘All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me (proskuneesees moi).’ Then Jesus said to him, ‘Begone, Satan! for it is written, "You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.' Matthew 4:8-10

How can we prefer our interpretation over Jesus' teachings?!!



All those who believed with the prophets were subject to untold torture in order to forsake their faith, but they didnt, and they kept stick to their religions because their faith was very firm. And so were Jesus' disciplines. They resisted because they believed that Jesus is the prophet of God. Hence, giving up their faith was impossible for it would have meant giving their belief in God.




Thank you for providing me with thses scriptures, FS. But, all thses scriptures arent an evidence that Jesus is God. Throughout the NT, we find scriptures where David was worshiped, too. but why didnt you say of his being God?!!

Hence, we can see that worship is a sign of showing respect, obeisance, and honor.

How can we neglect what is clearly declared by Jesus himself, and depend on ourselves in interpreting things?!!

Oh please you have to show me where David was worshiped. lol

I would like you to read further in that passage where satan tempts Jesus and Jesus finally tells him you cannot tempt the Lord your God..

I stand on scripture.. I base my entire faith and my belief system on the Word of God... that means that every word written is truth revealed by the Holy Spirit of God. I cannot have a peaceful discussion with someone that does not respect that because the Word is the authority on which I speak. Jesus did not have to say He was God bow down and worship me it because it was known and He died for that fact,

If you just read the NT without trying to read it out of context to unvalidate some Christian doctrine....you might understand where we come from. But you cannot because you are trying to prove it wrong and you will have to use better arguments than that to get ME to think otherwise.

 

[sonoman]

Some bow down to idols made of stone. Others bow down to ones made of ink and paper. When a piece of wood tells you it is God and don't listen to the man speaking next to you, what is that but idol worship? One of the reasons why our world is so filled with religiously inspired violence is because believers will not stop to think with a clear mind and heart about the words they are believing in, words they have no idea who wrote about a fellow who's life on earth no one on earth can verify. Such a leap of faith to put all one's faith in God on words written by strangers no one knows who they are. But that's what blind faith is all about.

 

[Quahom1]

Thank you for your "intrusion", Luna. You saved me from being misunderstood. My English isnt my 1st language, and sometimes I get misunderstood because of this. I really thought a compliment means empty flattery. Thank you, again, Luna, for correction and for the information,too.

Well, your "second language" isn't too bad at all.

 

[Quahom1]

Oh please you have to show me where David was worshiped. lol

I would like you to read further in that passage where satan tempts Jesus and Jesus finally tells him you cannot tempt the Lord your God..

I stand on scripture.. I base my entire faith and my belief system on the Word of God... that means that every word written is truth revealed by the Holy Spirit of God. I cannot have a peaceful discussion with someone that does not respect that because the Word is the authority on which I speak. Jesus did not have to say He was God bow down and worship me it because it was known and He died for that fact,

If you just read the NT without trying to read it out of context to unvalidate some Christian doctrine....you might understand where we come from. But you cannot because you are trying to prove it wrong and you will have to use better arguments than that to get ME to think otherwise.

...and the devil laid that golden fiddle at his feet, 'cause he knew that he'd been beat...

appropriate analogy, for the times.

 

[Quahom1]

Some bow down to idols made of stone. Others bow down to ones made of ink and paper. When a piece of wood tells you it is God and don't listen to the man speaking next to you, what is that but idol worship? One of the reasons why our world is so filled with religiously inspired violence is because believers will not stop to think with a clear mind and heart about the words they are believing in, words they have no idea who wrote about a fellow who's life on earth no one on earth can verify. Such a leap of faith to put all one's faith in God on words written by strangers no one knows who they are. But that's what blind faith is all about.

Faith is as deaf and as blind as the one unwilling to listen or see the simple truth.

When the truth says to be "excellent" towards each other, and that is ignored for personal desires and agenda, then the faithful are "blind and deaf", of their own accord, not anything a book may or may not have written...

Like my dad says, "don't b itch if the car won't run, because you refuse to follow the operator's manual"...

 

[dailogue is the best]

luke 9;35 says it all really


And a voice came out of the cloud, saying: "This is my Son, the one that has been chosen. Listen to him.


did the voice say this is me ,or this is God , no he said this is MY SON


Jesus is GODS SON he is not God , but people have not listened to the words of the true God have they, they even say that Jesus is God


mee listens to Jesus, he said the following

Well, Mee, we are all God's children. You, me, and everybody. And so was Jesus.

God is our Father in the metaphorical way.

 

[dailogue is the best]

Oh please you have to show me where David was worshiped. lol

What about this, Faithfulservant:

"Then David said to all the assembly, ‘Bless the LORD your God.’ And all the assembly blessed the LORD, the God of their fathers, and bowed their heads, and worshiped the LORD, and did obeisance to the king." 1 Chronicles 29:20

"Then David said to all the assembly, ‘Bless the LORD your God.’ And all the assembly blessed the LORD, the God of their fathers, and bowed their heads and paid homage to the LORD and to the king." ESV

 

[Faithfulservant]

Dialogue

first off you said that David was worshiped in the NT.. 1 chron is the OT

Thank you for providing me with thses scriptures, FS. But, all thses scriptures arent an evidence that Jesus is God. Throughout the NT, we find scriptures where David was worshiped, too. but why didnt you say of his being God?!!

Hence, we can see that worship is a sign of showing respect, obeisance, and honor.

How can we neglect what is clearly declared by Jesus himself, and depend on ourselves in interpreting things?!!

You are also guilty of the same thing many others do ...taking things out of context or failing to read the entire chapter... you could get the bible to say anything doing this lo. let me help you.

solomon was being crowned king of Israel and david being before the masses was praising God. They were not worshiping Solomon they were bowing before him. There is a difference in the two but you may want to take this to the judiasm forum and ask bananabrain he would know better than I.

 

[dailogue is the best]

Dialogue

first off you said that David was worshiped in the NT.. 1 chron is the OT

You are also guilty of the same thing many others do ...taking things out of context or failing to read the entire chapter... you could get the bible to say anything doing this lo. let me help you.

Sorry for the mistake and thank you for the correction, FS. And thanks for your help, indeed.

solomon was being crowned king of Israel and david being before the masses was praising God. They were not worshiping Solomon they were bowing before him. There is a difference in the two but you may want to take this to the judiasm forum and ask bananabrain he would know better than I.

Well, this is very clear, FS. As you said that there is a big difference between bowing down and worship.

Now I can fully understand that you believe in the necessity of worshiping Jesus because there are some who worshiped Jesus and he didnt stop them.

Well, at this moment, I have some questions, and I would be very grateful if you give me reasonable answers, Faithfulsevant

What does it mean worship in those scriptures? Does it mean that Jesus knew that people thought of him absolute power? that he is God?! if Jesus is God, then why did he himself worshipped God and prayed to Him to help him to overcome his suffering? How can God ask for a help?!!!

 

[Faithfulservant]

Now I can fully understand that you believe in the necessity of worshiping Jesus because there are some who worshiped Jesus and he didnt stop them.

Well, at this moment, I have some questions, and I would be very grateful if you give me reasonable answers, Faithfulservant

What does it mean worship in those scriptures? Does it mean that Jesus knew that people thought of him absolute power? that he is God?! if Jesus is God, then why did he himself worshiped God and prayed to Him to help him to overcome his suffering? How can God ask for a help?!!!

I wanted to clarify something...It isnt necessary that Jesus say a certain phrase in order for the truth of who He is to be made clear. He did not say I am God He did not say I am a prophet nor did He ever say I am a Man,..

John 1:1,14, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

John 20:28-29, "Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."

Heb. 1:8, "But of the Son He says, 'Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.'"

You cant say it any more simple.

As far as why did Jesus worship and pray to God the Father you must understand the trinity. Jesus was both a man and He also had a divine nature
He added to himself human nature and became a man.

The Bible says that Jesus is God in flesh, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.....and the word became flesh and dwelt among us" John 1:1, 14; and, "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form" Col 2:9. Jesus, as you can see has two natures. He is both God and man.

Part one of His dual nature is that He is God

He is worshiped Matthew 2:2,11, 14:33,28:9
He is prayed to Acts 7:59. 1Cor, 1:2
He was called God John 20:28, Heb 1:8
He was called Son of God mark 1:1
He is sinless 1 peter 2:22, Heb 4:15
He knew all things John 21:17
He gives eternal life John 20:28
The fullness of deity dwells in Him Col 2:9
​

Part two of His dual nature is that He is Man

He worshiped the Father John 17
He prayed to the Father John 17:1
He was called man mark 15:39, John 19:5
He was called Son of Man John 19:35-37
He was tempted Matthew 4:1
He grew in wisdom Luke 2:52
He died Roman 5:8
He has a body of flesh and bones Luke 24:39


As a man, Jesus needed to pray. When He was praying He was not praying to Himself, but to God the Father. I believe that Jesus sets the example for us on how we are to be as Christians and as children of God. He as a man would ask help of the Father.



Do you not agree that we cannot know all the great mysteries of God? So can you understand the pressure you put on Christians in demanding answers to some of these great mysteries. We do the best we can in explaining them to you but if you cannot understand that God is greater than our understanding you will never be satisfied.
​

 

[17th Angel]

Do you not agree that we cannot know all the great mysteries of God? So can you understand the pressure you put on Christians in demanding answers to some of these great mysteries.

I think we should switch a few words....

Can I share this psalm...

Psalm 86... (by David by the way....)

Please listen, YHWH,
And answer my prayer!
I am poor and helpess.

Protect me and save me.
Because you are my god.
I am your faithful servant,
and I trust you.

Be kind to me! I pray to you all day!

Make my heart glad!
I serve you, and my prayer is sincere.

you willingly forgive,
and your love is always there.
For those who pray to you.

Please listen, YHWH.
Answer my prayer for help.

When I am in trouble, I pray,
Knowing you will listen.

No other gods are like you.
Only you work miracles.

You created each nation,
and they will all bow down to worship and honor you.

You perform great wonders,
beacuse you alone are god.

Teach me to follow you,
And I will obey your truth.
Always keep me faithful.

With all my heart I thank you.
I praise you, YHWH god.

Your love for me is so great,
that you protected me,
from death and the grave.

Proud and violent enemies,
who don't care about you,
have ganged up to attack and kill me.

But you are YHWH, god,
are kind and merciful.
You don't easily get angry,
and your love can always be trusted.

I serve you, YHWH.
And I am the child of one of your servants.
Look on me with kindness.
Make me strong and save me.

Show that you approve of me!
Then my hateful enemies,
will feel like fools,
Because you have helped me
and comforted me.

amen.

I think David shows that we can have an amazing understanding of God.

Although I feel like what Dial is asking can be answered by simply saying... God didn't pray for help.... But that is my take on it.

 

[dailogue is the best]

I wanted to clarify something...It isnt necessary that Jesus say a certain phrase in order for the truth of who He is to be made clear. He did not say I am God He did not say I am a prophet nor did He ever say I am a Man,..

Well, FS, I believe that Jesus came with a definite message of course. He was chosen by God to do a very difinite mission. Hence, Jesus says a lot in the Bible that shows the kind of his message: who is God, and who is he, and why was he sent to his people. Present me what Jesus himself said, not what others said about him or how they interpret his words and actions.

 

[dailogue is the best]

I think we should switch a few words....

Can I share this psalm...

Psalm 86... (by David by the way....)

Please listen, YHWH,
And answer my prayer!
I am poor and helpess.

Protect me and save me.
Because you are my god.
I am your faithful servant,
and I trust you.

Be kind to me! I pray to you all day!

Make my heart glad!
I serve you, and my prayer is sincere.

you willingly forgive,
and your love is always there.
For those who pray to you.

Please listen, YHWH.
Answer my prayer for help.

When I am in trouble, I pray,
Knowing you will listen.

No other gods are like you.
Only you work miracles.

You created each nation,
and they will all bow down to worship and honor you.

You perform great wonders,
beacuse you alone are god.

Teach me to follow you,
And I will obey your truth.
Always keep me faithful.

With all my heart I thank you.
I praise you, YHWH god.

Your love for me is so great,
that you protected me,
from death and the grave.

Proud and violent enemies,
who don't care about you,
have ganged up to attack and kill me.

But you are YHWH, god,
are kind and merciful.
You don't easily get angry,
and your love can always be trusted.

I serve you, YHWH.
And I am the child of one of your servants.
Look on me with kindness.
Make me strong and save me.

Show that you approve of me!
Then my hateful enemies,
will feel like fools,
Because you have helped me
and comforted me.

amen.

I think David shows that we can have an amazing understanding of God.

Although I feel like what Dial is asking can be answered by simply saying... God didn't pray for help.... But that is my take on it.

Thank you, Alex. It is verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry clear