Did God know Eve would eat -- a non-Abrhamic perspective

[winner08]

IF God made man to be conformed into His image, wouldn't that imply that one of the attributes of that image would to have free will in decision making?

Dondi, Man that is a very good question I din't know the ansewer to you question,but I might beable to find out through a third party.

Darren

PS This question is the kind that will make one really dig deep and research diligently. With the help of God and I mean it He will if it is HIS will, we will find the truth to your question.

 

[Dream]

That is an interesting thought. I don't imagine God needing a choice in His attributes, He just is. But I fail to see how that would prevent Him from impressing the power of freewill in us, if God Himself has freewill. How else could we derive His image into our own. That freewill means we have choice to be conformed into His image...or not. The trick is in the influence.

Even Paul the apostle seems to purposely leave the question of absolute freewill unanswered. He only says 'What if' that is the case 'What is that to you?' and compares us to pots of clay, referring to a passage in Jeremiah. Perhaps God gave us absolute freewill, but it doesn't seem to me like we could have inherited it. God is an absolute, who teaches us the characteristics we strive to embody. It says he dwells in unapproachable light.

You have brought up an important question. It would seem God's image would be limitless. It leads me to believe that 'God' did not use His image to create humanity, but that 'angels' used their 'similar-to-human' image to do the creating — just like the Bible says. The idea is, human-like 'angels' used their image to create man — a process more reasonable than 'God' using His image — and makes a lot of sense to me.

I think you have an informed opinion. To me, everything about creation is couched in the metaphorical. I'm looking at the angels as either prophets or something similar. My angels of course could not represent the image of God perfectly in the earth or we wouldn't be needed. I think what they were is the beginning of a process in which we play a part.

 

[winner08]

I don't think that Adam and Eve represent humanity as a whole, I think Adam and Eve represent the Soul and Spirit of Adam, as the link I posted discusses. If your main question is really, why does God create us if he knows that we will do bad things, then my opinion is that God never forces us to do these things, he creates us and divorces Himself from what we will do, but guides and tries to steer us toward the right path. Have a good day.

something to think about. I once heard that
God really dosen't concern Himself with the physical , but He is real insterested in our spirit.. Jesus said to his decipiles You don't understand earthly things that I teach you, How can you understand heavenly things?

BTW- You said that God never forces us to do anything. I agree. But you also said the God TRIES to steer us toward the right path. This implies that God If He wants to He can't guide us toward doing the right things. This is ture if our God is not the knowing all ,all powerfull His will will always be done God. But He is and His will is always done so I would say thatGod chooses NOT to guide us That He creates the circumstances that we find ourselves in and we make the choices. God is responsible for creating our circumstances and we are responsible for the choices we make. This is what I come to believe.

Darren

 

[winner08]

Darren,

You said,

"I feel at ease writting my true feelings. on the other threads I tryed to be careful I didn't want to offend anybody but often the truth hurts."

--> My first rule is, we must pursue the truth, no matter where that search takes us. As a matter of fact, 'we' created this thread for the specific purpose of giving us (all of us) an opportunity to do just that. This thread is dedicated to those of us willing to go where we will, no matter what, even if it offends someone.

Of course, we are respectful of other people's beliefs. That is why we are having this discussion in this thread, instead of barging into someone else's thread. In this thread, it is wide open, no one can hide behind a "that's too holy to discuss" excuse, and we welcome all comers.

You say,

"[without] ...pain death suffering how would we build character?"

--> Exactly. Now, let's take it one step further. For human to take it to the next level (you call it Heaven, I call in Nirvana), the choice to do so must be made absolutely without any pressure from anyone. That is why our system on Earth, as ugly as it is, has to be this way. The choice to move up to the next level cannot be forced in any way. (Of course, this is why so many people are out there doing such evil things. This is a lousy system, but there is no better system.)

"I am not speaking for Nick."

--> You will find that Thomas and I have a very different take on the original question. Please feel free to compare our opinions, and see which one suits you best.

You are doing well to keep an open mind and question everything. Good for you.

Are you read for the next step? Are you ready to look at other parts of the Bible that do not 'make sense'?

YES,YES,YES!!! I am totally ready for the next chapter in our discussion.

Darren

PS What do you have in mind???

 

[winner08]

That is an interesting thought. I don't imagine God needing a choice in His attributes, He just is. But I fail to see how that would prevent Him from impressing the power of freewill in us, if God Himself has freewill. How else could we derive His image into our own. That freewill means we have choice to be conformed into His image...or not. The trick is in the influence.

I have been wanting to say this for awhile but I know I will probaly get tore up for this but here it goes.

MAN HAS NO FREE WILL.

There I said it.

Maby this could be our next chapter??

Darren

PS This subject needs lots of room to flourish. So I'll wait to see what yall want to do with this topic. If yall agree to go with this let me warn you that it will get very deep.

 

[Eclectic Mystic]

I'm still not aware of God telling me to not eat a fruit or any other such thing. Is there some kind of reason why non-Jews think this story applies to them or to others?

 

[winner08]

Dream,

You had the exchange,

"IF God made man to be conformed into His image, wouldn't that imply that one of the attributes of that image would to have free will in decision making? --> I don't know. Did God have any choice about his own attributes? It doesn't seem to answer the question for me."

--> You have brought up an important question. It would seem God's image would be limitless. It leads me to believe that 'God' did not use His image to create humanity, but that 'angels' used their 'similar-to-human' image to do the creating — just like the Bible says. The idea is, human-like 'angels' used their image to create man — a process more reasonable than 'God' using His image — and makes a lot of sense to me.

The Bible clearly indicates that a group of human-like 'angels' — not 'God' — created humanity.

Nick WOW!! you must tell me where this is in the Bible. I will reply to this after I read this form myself. (If you can give me scripture chapter and verse). That would be great.

Darren

 

[Dream]

Hi Darren, now I'm off topic; One of the main opinions that angels assisted with or at least witnessed the beginning. Some people use the 'Let us make man' in Genesis as indicative of angels present, others that its the trinity, still others that its something else.


Job 37:4 "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding.....7 when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Psalm 104
3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:
4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

Rev 3:1 ...These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars;...

 

[winner08]

Hi Darren, now I'm off topic; One of the main opinions that angels assisted with or at least witnessed the beginning. Some people use the 'Let us make man' in Genesis as indicative of angels present, others that its the trinity, still others that its something else.


Job 37:4 "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding.....7 when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Psalm 104
3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:
4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

Rev 3:1 ...These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars;...

Yes I believe the morning stars were angles.

I sorry I do not believe in no way shap or form that angles created anything.

God created the angles and all the universe. I don't believe in no way does scripture say otherwise.

God is the creator.

Now I don't know if I am understanding Nick or you if you are saying that angles did the creating of man in their image.

BTW, If one was to read Gen. in it original text, Hebrew, you would find that the word is creating and not created.just as in the famous verse in John, God so loved (it should read loves) the world. Loved is past tense so in created. When God said let Us make man in Our Image one has to remember the correct text (creating) We are not in God image until we are made incorruptable and put on immortality. I will get into this subject deeper in a later time.

PS This is getting very interesting

Darren

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Darren,

You said,

"God created the angles and all the universe. I don't believe in no way does scripture say otherwise."

--> I guess we just have to agree to disagree on this one. I am glad to see that your faith is so strong.

By the way, are there any other parts of the Bible that do not make sense to you?

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Dream,

I agree with you.

Let's consider the idea that the word “God” in the Bible was originally “Gods” (plural) and was mis-translated into English. The Book of Genesis says:

“Then God said: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...” (Genesis 1.26)

When the Bible was translated into English, the word “God” was translated from the word “Elohim”. The word Elohim is plural, not singular:

“The form of the word Elohim, with the ending -im, is plural and masculine....” (www.answers.com/topic/elohim, in the Section titled, “Entymology”.)

Therefore, the sentence from Genesis should read:

“Then the Gods said: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...” (Genesis 1.26)

... which is what I believe Genesis originally said. Let’s take another look at the original line from Genesis:

“Then God said: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...” (underlines added.)

Here, the Bible clearly categorizes the speaker(s) as plural. However, God is characterized as being singular. I think this is another case where the Bible has been intentionally and wrongly edited.

Dream, you are correct to point out the repeated use of the number seven in the Bible. There were seven Elohim which created humanity. Do you have the Biblical quote that says there are seven flames before the throne, or something like that?

 

[winner08]

Darren,

You said,

"God created the angles and all the universe. I don't believe in no way does scripture say otherwise."

--> I guess we just have to agree to disagree on this one. I am glad to see that your faith is so strong.

By the way, are there any other parts of the Bible that do not make sense to you?

Nick before I move on I would really like to know why you believe that angles created man in their images? That's what we are for to learn to share to see if we can come to an understanding. Listen Nick I have been searching for 30 of my 47 yrs on earth. I found what I was looking for only a few mos ago. In those few mos. God has open up a whole new world to me. But that Doesn't mean I stop searching. I now just search harder.

Darren

 

[winner08]

Dream,

I agree with you.

Let's consider the idea that the word “God” in the Bible was originally “Gods” (plural) and was mis-translated into English. The Book of Genesis says:

“Then God said: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...” (Genesis 1.26)

When the Bible was translated into English, the word “God” was translated from the word “Elohim”. The word Elohim is plural, not singular:

“The form of the word Elohim, with the ending -im, is plural and masculine....” (www.answers.com/topic/elohim, in the Section titled, “Entymology”.)

Therefore, the sentence from Genesis should read:

“Then the Gods said: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...” (Genesis 1.26)

... which is what I believe Genesis originally said. Let’s take another look at the original line from Genesis:

“Then God said: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...” (underlines added.)

Here, the Bible clearly categorizes the speaker(s) as plural. However, God is characterized as being singular. I think this is another case where the Bible has been intentionally and wrongly edited.

Dream, you are correct to point out the repeated use of the number seven in the Bible. There were seven Elohim which created humanity. Do you have the Biblical quote that says there are seven flames before the throne, or something like that?

May I through in my 2cents: Well anyway did yall know in gen 1:26 God says let Us make man in Our image according to Our Likeness. In 27 God created man in His OWN image (OWN) not OURS. in the image of God He created Him male and female HE created (Them) OK Now in Gen 2:7 Here we have (and the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and BREATHED into his nostrils the BREATH OF LIFE and man BECAME A LIVING SOUL. I was giving some insght by my teacher on this subject Why the 2 different accounts of man being created. Yes it is two different accounts. One we have God Make man in Our image. then you have God forming man out of the dust. for a long time I read this and never looked at it. You know what i mean?? This is how God works. Only in His time are we if at all allowed to understand.

What do you guys thik about this?? I have my own conclusions but they are mostly wrong when I try to interject my man made opinion. ( my ego)

Darren.

 

[Quahom1]

May I through in my 2cents: Well anyway did yall know in gen 1:26 God says let Us make man in Our image according to Our Likeness. In 27 God created man in His OWN image (OWN) not OURS. in the image of God He created Him male and female HE created (Them) OK Now in Gen 2:7 Here we have (and the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and BREATHED into his nostrils the BREATH OF LIFE and man BECAME A LIVING SOUL. I was giving some insght by my teacher on this subject Why the 2 different accounts of man being created. Yes it is two different accounts. One we have God Make man in Our image. then you have God forming man out of the dust. for a long time I read this and never looked at it. You know what i mean?? This is how God works. Only in His time are we if at all allowed to understand.

What do you guys thik about this?? I have my own conclusions but they are mostly wrong when I try to interject my man made opinion. ( my ego)

Darren.

Trinity comes to mind...

 

[LeoSalinas22]

Dream, you are correct to point out the repeated use of the number seven in the Bible. There were seven Elohim which created humanity. Do you have the Biblical quote that says there are seven flames before the throne, or something like that?

hello nick the pilot,

i am not dream but why wait, right? the verse you are referring to is in the book of apocalypse found in Re 3:1 ,Re 4:5, Re 5:6.

 

[LeoSalinas22]

May I through in my 2cents: Well anyway did yall know in gen 1:26 God says let Us make man in Our image according to Our Likeness. In 27 God created man in His OWN image (OWN) not OURS. in the image of God He created Him male and female HE created (Them) OK Now in Gen 2:7 Here we have (and the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and BREATHED into his nostrils the BREATH OF LIFE and man BECAME A LIVING SOUL. I was giving some insght by my teacher on this subject Why the 2 different accounts of man being created. Yes it is two different accounts. One we have God Make man in Our image. then you have God forming man out of the dust. for a long time I read this and never looked at it. You know what i mean?? This is how God works. Only in His time are we if at all allowed to understand.

What do you guys thik about this?? I have my own conclusions but they are mostly wrong when I try to interject my man made opinion. ( my ego)

Darren.

hi winner,
keep in mind that when the TANACH (previous covenant, if you will, because to me, IT was never old) was written, there were never any chapter breaks. very important to remember this while reading the bible.

i am of the mind that Gen 1:1-31 & 2:1-3 is a summery account of God's creation of heaven and earth. as i understand the account, we aren't even in the 7th day yet. we are still in the 6th day awaiting for our image to be perfected.

in other words, anything that is read after Gen 2:4 takes place during the 6th day. for the exception at the end of the book of apocalypse.

i would delve further into why i think this but i'll leave you to ask the questions. unless you already know the answers and are just testing the waters. if so i understand.

now you say that you were given insight to this in another form. by all means, share the knowledge when you get the chance.

leo

 

[LeoSalinas22]

Trinity comes to mind...

or God and the devil. and all the host of heaven.

 

[Dream]

Trinity comes to mind...

Yes, it does; and your point of view added to mine is better than my own by itself. I hope no one will ever fully accept my opinions which are always riddled with error.

Nick,
I actually hadn't heard of a 7 angel theory, but I found the verse you're referring to about seven lamps. I won't go off on that tangent right now, because I have a love for pet theories about it.

My favorite thing about the seven lamps is the time that the seven lamps of the temple continued burning without oil, which happened during a long Roman seige of the temple premises. The lamps had been kept going (so it was thought) by priests who for centuries daily oiled them and kept them clean! This doesn't conclude anything about predestiny necessarily, but it is related because it make us (the lamp) less important than the light. Our work and our opinions, the lamp the oil and the keeping, are merely the symbols of light, but the light is the reality.

 

[Quahom1]

Dream,

I agree with you.

Let's consider the idea that the word “God” in the Bible was originally “Gods” (plural) and was mis-translated into English. The Book of Genesis says:

“Then God said: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...” (Genesis 1.26)

When the Bible was translated into English, the word “God” was translated from the word “Elohim”. The word Elohim is plural, not singular:

“The form of the word Elohim, with the ending -im, is plural and masculine....” (www.answers.com/topic/elohim, in the Section titled, “Entymology”.)

Therefore, the sentence from Genesis should read:

“Then the Gods said: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...” (Genesis 1.26)

... which is what I believe Genesis originally said. Let’s take another look at the original line from Genesis:

“Then God said: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...” (underlines added.)

Here, the Bible clearly categorizes the speaker(s) as plural. However, God is characterized as being singular. I think this is another case where the Bible has been intentionally and wrongly edited.

Dream, you are correct to point out the repeated use of the number seven in the Bible. There were seven Elohim which created humanity. Do you have the Biblical quote that says there are seven flames before the throne, or something like that?

I would like to see where there is an indication of seven Elohhim. Which writ does this information come from? It doesn't have to be the bible or any other Abrahamic scripture, but I would be greatly surprised if that is where you obtained the idea.

Also, seven (biblically speaking), is the number of perfection. 777 is the number of God, to 666, the number of man.

As far as I can tell, the consistent reference to seven in the bible, seems more like the signature of God, as opposed to seven gods...but I digress.

v/r

Q

 

[winner08]

SOS, you are old news.