God versus Satan

cavalier said:
Maybe we go wrong when we start thinking about purpose, why do we believe everyone and everything has a self-determined purpose, or even any purpose at all.
Click to expand...
because god gave us a little bit of himself, therefore we are in control of the environment, the animals, and our fellow man. so we have a god given responsibility and in that we have a purpose. it can be as simple as loving your family.
 
cavalier said:
Maybe we go wrong when we start thinking about purpose, why do we believe everyone and everything has a self-determined purpose, or even any purpose at all.
Not often you find wisdom in a Brad Pitt movie, but in Troy when Briseis asks him why he chose to be a warrior, he answers something like, I chose nothing, I was born and this is what I am.
I wonder, has Satan made any choice?
Click to expand...

It starts with an obsession. An obsession is like a black hole that sucks you into another reality. It starts off as something small. As we get closer to the black hole, its attractive force increases. When you reach the Schwarz-child radius, it's the point of no-return.

We all get caught up in patterns of behaviour. We get obsessed/addicted to things. It's only when we hit the brick wall of our mortality, realise we've done tons of damage to our bodies and psyche that we start to change direction.

But, divine beings, angels, are immortal. It would be pretty hard to change when you don't have an incentive (ie. you're killing yourself and need to stop). Satan isn't going to die from being a corrupt agent in the spiritual realms. He can never die. What's the point of stopping if you've got nothing to lose? What's the point of changing?

Your conscience? Your scruples? Screw your conscience. Screw your scruples.

Will God finally arrest Satan? Satan says, maybe, perhaps. But then Satan has an opportunity -- a chance to form an army and overthrow God's Divine Monarchy. Get rid of God's tyrannical laws and his tyrannical government. Humanity and the Divine will then be free to romp in whatever pleasures they desire.

I might be mistaken, but I think I once heard, in my childhood, that it doesn't matter if you break the law, as along as you don't get caught, you're fine. So if you're a thief, dangerous criminal or someone who exceeds the speed limit, you could get away with anything if you knew how to prevent being caught. There is nothing wrong with doing illegal things if nobody can catch you.

Who's got pirated software? Pirated games and music? Who hasn't?

Getting away with "evil" is alright if you're smart. If you're smart you may even be able to see that there's nothing wrong with what you're doing. Justify your conscience. See no evil, speak no evil. No evil has been done. If the rest of the world says it's wrong, they are the ones who are wrong. It's everyone else's problem. It is they who are "spiritually polluted" and "warped." It isn't your problem. You're a responsible law-breaker. You can justify anything. You can redefine your values. Who cares about everyone else? You can do anything.

Ignore the self-righteous bigots who say there are moral absolutes. There are none. Come on. All I did was have a little bit of fun. Why is everyone so ill-humoured? Did I do that? Was it my fault?

Ok, this "attitude" wouldn't work for human beings. But angels don't suffer from these limitations. They're immortal. They can't die.

Self-determined behaviour? Methinks it's possible that it's a vicious cycle. Satan just can't help himself. It's not exactly driven by Fate, but the kind of character Satan has developed and continues to develop have ever-more malevolent agendas.

It's possible, also, that Satan has evolved over the centuries. The Satan we see depicted in Revelation is an advanced (older) version of Satan compared to the one in Genesis which is a younger Satan. As the story unfolds, Satan may eventually discover his own "apocalyptical future" which he hasn't yet visualised in fine detail. Sure he knows the Bible, he knows what's been written about him, but maybe he doesn't know how it will happen . . .

The future isn't exactly set, but it's unlikely that Satan will break out of this vicious cycle. Old habits die hard.
 
Saltmeister said:
Satan isn't going to die from being a corrupt agent in the spiritual realms. He can never die. What's the point of stopping if you've got nothing to lose? What's the point of changing?
Click to expand...

Nothing to loose? Anyone who believes that Satan exists, also belives that he WILL lose in the end.

Saltmeister said:
But then Satan has an opportunity -- a chance to form an army and overthrow God's Divine Monarchy.
Click to expand...

Even Satan would know that he CAN'T overthrow God, unless us Abrahamics have gotten it ALL WRONG about God and Satan.
 
BlaznFattyz said:
because god gave us a little bit of himself, therefore we are in control of the environment, the animals, and our fellow man. so we have a god given responsibility and in that we have a purpose. it can be as simple as loving your family.
Click to expand...
OK, a possible purpose, but not exactly a self-determined one. We do these things because we were created to do them.
 
Saltmeister said:
Self-determined behaviour? Methinks it's possible that it's a vicious cycle. Satan just can't help himself. It's not exactly driven by Fate, but the kind of character Satan has developed and continues to develop have ever-more malevolent agendas.
Click to expand...
I think I know what you mean, and part of me agrees. Another part thinks it might even go further than this, to a point where the cycle is inevitable, where its viciousness is irrelevant.
 
BlaznFattyz said:
i think we were given the ability to do them, but we have to choose to want to do them, its a choice.
Click to expand...
I don't disagree, but wouldn't go as far as to agree either. Depending on what exactly you mean by "want", I defrinitely see this as possible.
 
aburaees said:
Nothing to loose? Anyone who believes that Satan exists, also belives that he WILL lose in the end.

Even Satan would know that he CAN'T overthrow God, unless us Abrahamics have gotten it ALL WRONG about God and Satan.
Click to expand...

Governments and their leaders must be accountable. If Satan can force God to do something that violates His own conscience then Satan would ultimately win. Satan doesn't need to be more powerful than God, he simply has to defeat God morally. God would never do anything that violated His scruples. Likewise, God can't get rid of Satan after he had established his moral authority as the "New God." God would have ceased to function as God.

In theory it should be possible for Satan to win a moral victory against God, but the idea is that he won't.
 
Saltmeister said:
Governments and their leaders must be accountable. If Satan can force God to do something that violates His own conscience then Satan would ultimately win. Satan doesn't need to be more powerful than God, he simply has to defeat God morally. God would never do anything that violated His scruples. Likewise, God can't get rid of Satan after he had established his moral authority as the "New God." God would have ceased to function as God.

In theory it should be possible for Satan to win a moral victory against God, but the idea is that he won't.
Click to expand...

I'm trying to understand you here, but what exactly is a "moral victory"? From and Abrahamic POV doesn't God have the final say when it comes to morality?

I'm finding it difficult to conceive of a way in which Satan can have a moral victory over the author of morality... and surely Satan, who is wiser than I am, would find this difficult too?

The way I see it, Satan can have a victory over mankind, but never over God...
 
I always thought that Jesus was supposed to be the opposite of Satan. Jesus was the Lord of Love, Mercy, Empathy, Sympathy, etc... Satan was the Lord of Lies, Malice, Misery, Outrage, etc...

Just my opinion.

Peace,

Kelly
 
aburaees said:
I'm trying to understand you here, but what exactly is a "moral victory"? From and Abrahamic POV doesn't God have the final say when it comes to morality?

I'm finding it difficult to conceive of a way in which Satan can have a moral victory over the author of morality... and surely Satan, who is wiser than I am, would find this difficult too?

The way I see it, Satan can have a victory over mankind, but never over God...
Click to expand...

That's what we've been taught -- that God has already written the rules down -- that God already has authority to judge.

Here's my theory.

God, for sure, is in power at the moment, but His authority is being challenged. So God is going to have to prove Himself. The onus is on God to prove that He's indeed worthy of being "God."

All Satan really has to prove is that "God is no better than the rest of us." All Satan needs to prove is that nobody is absolutely pure and nobody deserves the title of "Absolute God" or "Ideal God." Divine Government is there for the taking. Any angel powerful enough to rule deserves the highest place in the universe -- the position, rank and office of God Himself.

The idea is that Satan won't succeed, but at least for now he's been given the opportunity to discredit God . . .

If Satan succeeds, we will no longer be obliged to be God's people, we can choose instead to be the children of angels of our choosing. Whatever angel we choose is "our god." That's what an angel is -- a potential god. That's the theology so far as Christianity, Gnosticism and Judaism are concerned -- that angels are "potential gods." Not sure about Islam.
 
Saltmeister said:
That's what we've been taught -- that God has already written the rules down -- that God already has authority to judge.

Here's my theory.

God, for sure, is in power at the moment, but His authority is being challenged. So God is going to have to prove Himself. The onus is on God to prove that He's indeed worthy of being "God."

All Satan really has to prove is that "God is no better than the rest of us." All Satan needs to prove is that nobody is absolutely pure and nobody deserves the title of "Absolute God" or "Ideal God." Divine Government is there for the taking. Any angel powerful enough to rule deserves the highest place in the universe -- the position, rank and office of God Himself.

The idea is that Satan won't succeed, but at least for now he's been given the opportunity to discredit God . . .

If Satan succeeds, we will no longer be obliged to be God's people, we can choose instead to be the children of angels of our choosing. Whatever angel we choose is "our god." That's what an angel is -- a potential god. That's the theology so far as Christianity, Gnosticism and Judaism are concerned -- that angels are "potential gods." Not sure about Islam.
Click to expand...


So we're talking about parallels with the Sumerian Igigi/Annunaki, Interesting!

.
 
aburaees said:
So we're talking about parallels with the Sumerian Igigi/Annunaki, Interesting!

.
Click to expand...

The cultural foundations of much of what is believed in the Abrahamic Religions originated in the religious practices and beliefs of ancient Sumer. There are also Egyptian and Persian influences, but mostly Sumerian and Babylonian. And now we sit here and wonder what all the fighting in Iraq is really about ?

In fact there were several articles published a few years ago at about the time that hostilities began which identified Mosul in Northern Iraq as the home territory of Satan.

flow....:rolleyes:
 
flowperson said:
The cultural foundations of much of what is believed in the Abrahamic Religions originated in the religious practices and beliefs of ancient Sumer. There are also Egyptian and Persian influences, but mostly Sumerian and Babylonian. And now we sit here and wonder what all the fighting in Iraq is really about ?

In fact there were several articles published a few years ago at about the time that hostilities began which identified Mosul in Northern Iraq as the home territory of Satan.

flow....:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

According to Genesis, Babel was the place where our tongues were confused and the human race was fragmented... and here we are back where we started.
 
flowperson said:
In fact there were several articles published a few years ago at about the time that hostilities began which identified Mosul in Northern Iraq as the home territory of Satan.
Click to expand...
Mosul was Ninevah...the town that Jonah didn't want to go to and ended up in the belly for three days...

How long we gonna stay in the belly?
 
Wil:

Hmmmm? How to make a whale burp...or was it actually a fish ?

D'ya think we'd be considered big chunks or small ?

Just wondering.

flow....:p
 
Sorry have to add this.. To think God could be over powered or out maneuvered by His creation is ludicrous. He is Omni and outside of time.. He knew everything that would happen before He even invented the concept of time. Thats my truth based on scripture of course. :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top