guilt

[ar.]

There is one thing that has always confused me about Christianity, even when I was a Christian, and I'm hoping that here I might be able to get some sort of real answer or at least something that satisfies my confusion.

It seems to me that guilt is a major part of Christianity, along with self-deprecation and the general feeling of unworthiness. While many Christian denominations couple these feelings with some sort of affirmation (i.e., we are the children of G-d, we are all equal under the eyes of G-d, etc.) the part that seems to win out is the negative aspects (i.e., we don't deserve salvation, we're all naturally inclined to evil, the only way to get to heaven is to realize that you're totally unworthy of being there, etc.)

My question, I guess, is why that is? Why do Christians (please excuse the generality) think so down on themselves? Does the Bible enforce this? And, if so, why do people choose to follow a religion which basically says that you're not good enough, you'll never be good enough, and the only way you'll make it to heaven is to live with the guilt that one man (or man-deity) died in a horrible fashion because you lied to your mother about taking a cookie from the jar when you were 8?

When I was a Christian, or, at least, when I was attempting to follow the faith, I was always very disturbed when I thought about my past sins or future sins, especially what the bible and modern day Christianity defines as sin, which is pretty all-encompassing. I ended up living my whole life wrenched with guilt, fueled by pastors who would say things like, "When Jesus was hanging on the cross, he was thinking of your sins, and bearing them on him, for you, even though you don't deserve it."

Is it wrong to think that I am a good person at heart, that G-d made me with a beautiful soul and a natural human nature? Am I truely some abomination because Eve bit the apple? And in order to be "saved", must I really grovel for forgiveness from someone who magnanimously gives it to the despicable and undeserving?

Help me out, please.

Ar.

Ps: I am currently agnostic and practice no particular religion, I do lean towards pagan and naturalistic religions, but I belong to none. I use the hyphen in the word G-d out of respect.

 

[mee]

keep searching and keep seeking and you will find the truth that sets you free.
.
Jehovah is not spying on us to catch our every fault and failing



If we draw near to Jehovah with complete hearts, his eyes will be upon us, not to condemn us, but to observe our efforts and answer our prayers for help and forgiveness.




"As for Jehovah, he has looked down from heaven itself upon the sons of men, to see whether there exists anyone having insight, anyone seeking Jehovah."—PSALM 14:2.

 

[17th Angel]

we don't deserve salvation, we're all naturally inclined to evil, the only way to get to heaven is to realize that you're totally unworthy of being there, etc.

We do deserve salvation. Everyone deserves second... Third, forth, fith chances! That's the beauty of it.. We are given another chance, makes me feel thankful, not guiltful. Man was made in the image of god, christianity doesn't teach we are naturally inclined to evil.

My question, I guess, is why that is? Why do Christians (please excuse the generality) think so down on themselves? Does the Bible enforce this?

I am very curious to your general ideas of christians.... Could you speak of your experiences with christianity? What denomination were you apart of? What events unfolded to make you believe christians think so down on themselves as you put it?

Aim to be humble and bow to the glory of god is indeed a good thing but doesn't show you look down on yourself, I don't see the problem? If you think you are bigger and beter than god? Then I see a problem...

When I was a Christian, or, at least, when I was attempting to follow the faith, I was always very disturbed when I thought about my past sins or future sins, especially what the bible and modern day Christianity defines as sin, which is pretty all-encompassing. I ended up living my whole life wrenched with guilt, fueled by pastors who would say things like, "When Jesus was hanging on the cross, he was thinking of your sins, and bearing them on him, for you, even though you don't deserve it."

Then in my humble opinion your pastors were teaching you wrong... Christianity is about love, mercy, forgivness, joy, saaaaaaaaalvation It isn't about constantly dwelling in self-pity and guilt! God isn't man, he holds no grudge, when he forgives, he forgives.... There is no reason to dwell on the past... If you have asked for forgivenss and have changed your way from that why continue to let it burden you?

If you do continue to dwell on past sin and such, then that really isn't christianity's fault, it doesn't teach you to do this, it is only your own conscience doing this.

YHWH is perfect but not a perfectionist.....

Is it wrong to think that I am a good person at heart, that G-d made me with a beautiful soul and a natural human nature? Am I truely some abomination because Eve bit the apple? And in order to be "saved", must I really grovel for forgiveness from someone who magnanimously gives it to the despicable and undeserving?

I, am really sorry to hear what has been put in your mind and what some 'pastor' has made you believe.... You really have got a big misunderstanding of christianity Ar...

I really hope you will take time to do the best thing to learn about christianity... And that is to read the scriptures on your own, with no other who is telling you what to think, read the words and they will tell you what to think... Welcome to the boards I look forward to reading your posts and watching your journey, may the guidance and peace of YHWH be with you.

Psalm 86:5 For you, O YHWH, are good and ready to forgive. And the loving-kindness to all those calling upon you is abundant....

 

[Snoopy]

Hi ar.

Welcome to IO!

Our resident Oz (greymare) has gone walkabout so glad that you've stepped into the vacancy!!!

I'm not a Christian but just thought I'd say hello. I'm sure you're perfectly fine as you are.

Snoopy.

 

[Thomas]

Hi ar — welcome

It seems to me that guilt is a major part of Christianity, along with self-deprecation and the general feeling of unworthiness.

Yes, it's a cop-out when it's the product of poor preaching — it's a misrepresentation of the message, and it's a cop-out when it's a product of false piety.

the part that seems to win out is the negative aspects (i.e., we don't deserve salvation, we're all naturally inclined to evil, the only way to get to heaven is to realize that you're totally unworthy of being there, etc.)

Human nature?

My question, I guess, is why that is? Why do Christians (please excuse the generality) think so down on themselves?

Historical circumstance — the Protestant revolution introduced it on a grand scale, with the idea that we're unworthy and nothing we can do can possibly make amends ... then you get 'hell-fire preachers' etc., preachers bent on manipulating their congregations, etc.

Does the Bible enforce this?

No. Quite the opposite.

Humility, yes ... false piety, no.

And, if so, why do people choose to follow a religion which basically says that you're not good enough, you'll never be good enough, and the only way you'll make it to heaven is to live with the guilt that one man (or man-deity) died in a horrible fashion because you lied to your mother about taking a cookie from the jar when you were 8?

Bad teaching again ...

When I was a Christian, or, at least, when I was attempting to follow the faith, I was always very disturbed when I thought about my past sins or future sins, especially what the bible and modern day Christianity defines as sin, which is pretty all-encompassing.

Rather than dwell on sin, the better path is to dwell on forgiveness — forget that bit, and the sin bit becomes very oppressive.

The all-encompassing aspect is more to do with cultural habit and practice, and while a lot of what we do is right, a lot is wrong, no getting around that. Society is generally selfish and modern culture is self-serving, both negative traits which we've made into virtues ... it's a whole big discussion.

I ended up living my whole life wrenched with guilt, fueled by pastors who would say things like, "When Jesus was hanging on the cross, he was thinking of your sins, and bearing them on him, for you, even though you don't deserve it."

If Jesus thought we didn't deserve it ... He wouldn't be there.

Is it wrong to think that I am a good person at heart, that G-d made me with a beautiful soul and a natural human nature?

No.

Am I truly some abomination because Eve bit the apple?

No ... but that beautiful and natural nature has been wounded.

And in order to be "saved", must I really grovel for forgiveness

The Bible says say thank you ... it does not say grovel, nor did anyone ever grovel to Jesus, so when someone says you should, I think you should challenge them.

I'm Catholic, by the way, so you'll only get the 'party line' from me ...

But it's a good point. Why go on about what's wrong, nobody was ever inspired to do something better by a negative? All you get is anger, and when that anger turns inward, you get guilt.

Far better to stress the positive and then people get fired up about all sorts of things.

welcome once again,

Thomas

 

[Dondi]

Hello, ar. Welcome to the IO.

It seems to me that guilt is a major part of Christianity, along with self-deprecation and the general feeling of unworthiness. While many Christian denominations couple these feelings with some sort of affirmation (i.e., we are the children of G-d, we are all equal under the eyes of G-d, etc.) the part that seems to win out is the negative aspects (i.e., we don't deserve salvation, we're all naturally inclined to evil, the only way to get to heaven is to realize that you're totally unworthy of being there, etc.)

The purpose of guilt is not to make you feel unworthy or of low self-esteem. the purpose of guilt is to let you know you've done something wrong, like broken one of God's commandments.

But before I elaborate on guilt, let me say something here about God's laws. The purpose of the Law of God isn't just to impose a set of rules and regulations to follow...don't do this, don't do that. Because really if there is no meaningful relationship with God, all the obedience in the world is moot. Thw Law was set up for our benefit, that by obeying them we will find ourselves living a better, less streesful life, a more joyful life. You have to see the 10 commandments as boiled down into basically the Two Commandments that Jesus taught:

"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." - Matthew 22:37-40

Viewed in this way, it all comes down to love. Love for God and love for our fellow human beings. Learning to love God and love others takes time and patience. God know this. So the guilt you are feeling is only you conscience telling you that you need to love better. Ok, you've blown it. You disobeyed God. But you need not stay in that position of depair and guilt. Pick youself up, make things right between whom you've offended, humbly confess to God you mistake, and start afresh.

I think what you need to understand is the Grace of God. Grace means that whatever you've done in you past, God can take the guilt and shame from you. You can let go of it and give it to God. Yes, we are responsible for what we have done, but God is merciful and forgiving. As a loving Father, He will cleanse your heart and give you another chance. He will also instruct you on how you can improve on those mistakes. It is a learning process and the intention of grace is to allow you the freedom to grow without any lasting guilt. Jesus didn't die on the Cross to make you feel guilty...quite the opposite. He sets our hearts free so that we can learn to grow in Him.

Ar, you are a good person at heart, God created you to be who are. But if we are in a relationship with God, He makes us better that we think we can be. A relationship with God means that His Spirit abides in us and comforts us in bad times and rejoices with us in good times. He takes away the bitterness and sorrow that we may be harboring in our hearts and gives us the fortitude to carry on when we lack the strength.

God will not make you do anything. You have that freedom of choice. But He does offer a better way. The best way, IMO.

 

[Ahanu]

Guys, great thread because I grew up with the same "bad teachings."

 

[wil]

Oh yes, the oh I'm not worthy, just a lowly human. Yikes.

Seems the Catholic mom's and the Jewish mom's used to see who had the corner on the guilt market. Stereotypical I know, but it is what I grew up around. (not just the bigotry but watching what went on in my friends houses)

Now it seems some of the bible thumpin non denominationals hold it pretty hot and heavy as well as Menonites and JW door knockers.

I think it is fear based on the part of the teacher, the only way to control the masses is through fear so we'll guilt em into compliance.

 

[BlaznFattyz]

Christians should not be down on themselves, and i have been a christian all my life and i have never met anyone who has been down on themselves, in fact, the opposite. I know there are people that do this but it is unhealthy. I dont think it is an aspect of christianity, but something people do regardless of religion. if it isnt christianity, it is their weight, their looks, there parents, etc. My outlook on life is that my Father is a King, he loves me, and i will be with him in paradise someday. At the same time, i come to him humbly, knowing i fall short of the glory of God, but in Him i may be perfected one day. Christianity is more about hope, forgiveness, and love than it is a guilt trip. So i am sad to hear you have had that experience.

 

[ar.]

Thanks for all the responses.

I grew up in an Apostolic Pentecostal church until I was about 12, then my parents switched and we started going to a Missionary Alliance church. I stopped going at around 15 when I was asked to "take a break for a season", because I refused to get therapy for being bisexual. I haven't been back inside a church since then. I have since moved to Australia and gotten engaged to a man, also an ex-Christian. His church asked him to leave because he was dating me (a non-Christian) and wouldn't break up with me when they told him to.

I have had a lot of negative experiences with the Christian church, but I understand that it was just a few people, and that a lot of Christians are really nice. My fiancé's family are all Christian and they are all very nice to me. Well, maybe not my mother-in-law...;D

I really appreciate all your answers, but would like to ask another question in response to the general answers you have given. It's slightly more unconventional, so bear with me.

Why does there have to be anything wrong? To clarify: many religions have a similar base set of guidelines that a person should follow, and they have penalties for not following those guidelines. For instance, Wicca has the Wiccan Reed - "An it harm none, do what you will." The penalty for disobeying, for harming someone, is karmic, i.e., that it will come back upon you threefold or sometimes tenfold.

Christianity, however, has a very long set of rules and guidelines, which different denominations pick and choose which ones to follow, most of which are very difficult to follow when you're battling against human nature. Most unsettlingly, the penalty for disobeying any of these number of regulations is eternal death and torture. That is, unless you follow Christianity and pray to Jesus for forgiveness and try really hard never to do it again -- but really try really hard, because He'll know if you're only trying kinda hard.

I guess this is where I get the idea that human nature is sinful, apart from being taught it a number of times. The basic tenants of Christianity call for you to follow laws which are extremely difficult to follow. And even if you subscribe to the belief that the greatest commandments are to love the Father and love your Neighbour, and none of the other commandments matter as much as those, you're still going to run into some problems headlong somewhere along the way -- like homosexuality or premarital sex.

I mean, it's easy to say that you don't lie because lying would not be being loving to your neighbour, but what if you are lying because that sweater really is ugly and you know they love it and you don't want to hurt their feelings? In karmic religions, to my understanding, it is your intentions which come back upon you. If you lie with the intent to build someone up, then that comes back to you. In Christianity, as I understand it, if you lie you just go to hell (unless you believe in Jesus, in which case you just need to ask for forgiveness and feel real bad.)

I really appreciate the open, honest way that you are all answering my questions, this is probably the first time that I have asked a sincere question and haven't been beaten over the head with the fact that I'm going to hell for a number of reasons.

-ar.

 

[BlaznFattyz]

I refused to get therapy for being bisexual. I have since moved to Australia and gotten engaged to a man, also an ex-Christian. His church asked him to leave because he was dating me (a non-Christian) and wouldn't break up with me when they told him to.

Why does there have to be anything wrong?

Even if you subscribe to the belief that the greatest commandments are to love the Father and love your Neighbour, and none of the other commandments matter as much as those, you're still going to run into some problems headlong somewhere along the way -- like homosexuality or premarital sex.

first of all, we should love one another, and if we marry someone who is not christian, that is ok, because we get the chance to show them God's love, and we should not abandon them, because God does not abandon us even though we can be sinners. But God loves us, he came to save us, because he knows we are sinners and we have a hard time trying to be like him which is holy and righteous, although he can be pleased from time to time by those who choose to do good things in his name.

why are we awful, or why does anything have to be wrong? well, i am sure you have watched or read the news, or have taken a history class. Man can be very abusive and destructive to one another, the environment, and to the animals. It can be done for any number of reasons.

If one loves God first and foremost it becomes easier to do the rest. If you love God, then you will love his creations. If you love God, you will want to please him. If you love God, you will try to live a good life and spread his good news, whether it is to people in another country, to neighbors or friends, or simply your son or daughter. God knows even if we love him, we are going to fall, that is human nature. So although one might love God, if he is in your heart, naturally you will struggle with living in sin, and it might not be an instantaneous thing to fix, and you may trip numerous times, and it may take a whole life time, but God is patient and loving and he can forgive and strengthen if you just ask.

as far as the picking and choosing, this is not just with christianity. wherever there are people involved there will be people wanting to do what fits them, what pleases them, what is convenient for them. See, God is perfect, therefore his rules ask for perfection. We as humans are not perfect but we have the ability to be spiritual, because he made us this way. so if we talk to God in spirit and pray to him, ask his forgiveness and love him in his Son's name, then we have at least made our way to heaven by glorifying God and his Son whom he sent to save us by grace, not by following rules perfectly, but by simplying confessing that Christ is Lord.

 

[Faithfulservant]

Jesus died once and for all for ALL sins. Any guilt felt is not from Him or of Him and would be labeled a spiritual attack in my book.

I also believe that once saved always saved if you truly repented and asked Him into your heart.. if it was a true conversion.. you dont get to back out of it. He promised that He would never lose any of His. I do not think it is possible to deny Jesus Christ once you've recieved Him. I think there are many people who thought they were Christian but never had a conversion experience. But thats my belief. I know personally you can backslide and fall into the valley but Hes still there and He will bring you home again.

God Bless.

 

[Dream]

Guilt is painful negative self image that is often unjustifiable; but people can be conditioned to accept it regularly without question. I suggest you do what you can to break the cycle of self hatred in your family which may help them recognize when guilt trips are being pushed on them. First, remove the false guilt buttons from yourself. Guilt should be a force for realistic (not idealistic) positive change and otherwise not part of your life. Second learn how to monitor yourself so you aren't using guilt to manipulate other people in any way. Its tempting to use guilt and it is surprising how many opportunities will come up for you to use it. You want your family to recognize when they're being induced to hate themselves? When they're with you, carefully avoid laying blame or using manipulation. Their interaction with you should be like a clear mirror in which they see themselves without added cracks or blotches.

 

[mee]

and JW door knockers.

quote]
who bring GOODNEWS and it is very good

 

[Snoopy]

I really appreciate the open, honest way that you are all answering my questions, this is probably the first time that I have asked a sincere question and haven't been beaten over the head with the fact that I'm going to hell for a number of reasons.

In my dim understanding of the way this site is meant to operate, posts in this here bit are meant to be broadly supportive of / in the vein of Christianity (I say meant...). So for the most open, honest, varied and downright crazy replies perhaps you should ask a moderator to move this to (perhaps) the Belief & Spirituality or Comparative Studies forums. Then you can get a million posts with a million opinions! Oh deep joy. Unless you do only want the Christian take on things...

s.

 

[wil]

Why does there have to be anything wrong? To clarify: many religions have a similar base set of guidelines that a person should follow, and they have penalties for not following those guidelines.

In my belief system...

Your are not punished for your sins but by them.

ie what you do to others has an affect on your life. Call it guilt or Karma or whatever. As we proceed with our lives and look back on things we've done we often end up wishing we had done, said things differently.

Most religious laws/guildelines are just that, ways to assist you in growing up to be a caring, moral individual who can look back on their life satisfied with what they have done.

 

[Dondi]

Why does there have to be anything wrong? To clarify: many religions have a similar base set of guidelines that a person should follow, and they have penalties for not following those guidelines. For instance, Wicca has the Wiccan Reed - "An it harm none, do what you will." The penalty for disobeying, for harming someone, is karmic, i.e., that it will come back upon you threefold or sometimes tenfold.

In a manner of speaking, the bible does teach something akin to karma:

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not." - Galatians 6:7-9

Forget about the afterlife for a moment. Deal with what is now, with what's going on in our lives at present. I think all too often folks are so worried about trying to get into heaven or avoid hell that they miss the point in what God wants for us. Jesus said, "I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." (John 10:10) This means that God's intention is to maximize our life here on earth. "For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end."(Jeremiah 29:11) God wants nothing more that for us to enjoy the life here. But this comes when we abide in His way, for our way is often flawed.

We are following basically two paths. One that will lead us downward, to a lower level of living, where our tendencies are self-destructive and base and end up harming others around us as well. The other path leads to greater joy, peace, and harmony with those around us. Since God created us, He must know how we need to live in order for us to experience that joy and peace. All the commandments are geared toward that end. They aren't meant to be a burden.

As far a these 'white' lies you spoke about, I think you might be right about intent. Rahab, in the book of Joshua, lied to authorities in order to protect two Jewish spies from being discovered and then helped them escape. And as her reward, she and her familiy were able to escape the coming destruction of Jerico. And Rahab is commended in both the Old and New Testaments for her actions, even being listed in the 'Hall of Faith' in Hebrews 11. However, I believe that lying in general is wrong. For lying will cause distrust toward the one whom you've lied to if ever found out. In other words, don't make a habit out of it. One lie can build upon another and another until you've gotten so convoluted, no one will be apt to trust you anymore.

When confronted with 'grey' areas like, one ought to take the rule of thumb, 'when in doubt, throw it out', for "whatsoever is not of faith is sin" (Romans 14:23).

In all actuality, we ought to be led by the Spirit of God (See Galatians 5:14-25). Following the commandments is good, but unless we follow the 'spirit' of what the commandments entail, they just become a set of rules and regulations that's not fun for anyone to follow. We have to know within ourselves why we ought to follow them, and not just because some preacher told us we should. When we understand why God set boundaries in our habitation, so that we can live among each other, then we can appreciate that the law is a standard, a moral code, a compass for living. We aren't going to be perfect, but we are going to be better for it.

 

[Mirko]

isnt all this more about fear and shame, than guilt?

personally i was raised catholic and know a lot of catholics, and i can say guilt is not an issue
fear perhaps, shame yes, frustration also, but guilt does not really enter the discussion
and catholics even have confession so guilt is really not a problem

shame is important do, perhaps that turns into guilt somehow in some denominations
i cant really speak for any other christian denominations as i only know the catholic

even so i can see how someones parents would try and make someone feel guilty to stop him from doing or not doing things
that might be on the line of why? humans first feel shame and guilt before their parents, or whichever other human is raising them
this is also the first authority in their life, vich they simultaneously respect, love and fear
once a human learns a set of religious beliefs, and learns to accept the authorities proposed by these beliefs, he or she will also respect and fear those authorities, and so feel guilt and shame before them, and if this is sistematicaly ingrained at a young age, that person may even continue to feel guilt and shame about the same actions, long after he or she learns these authorities do not in fact exist, or are not legitimate, or worthy of respect

 

[Ahanu]

Historical circumstance — the Protestant revolution introduced it on a grand scale, with the idea that we're unworthy and nothing we can do can possibly make amends ...

Uh, Martin Luther?

Oh yes, the oh I'm not worthy, just a lowly human. Yikes.

When preachers teach humility, it seems they ofen go into guilt, as if feeling guilty will make me practice humility. Well, how do you differentiate between guilt and humility? I mean, what are the key differences and emotions that are chained to each one? For example, guilt usually leads me into depression, for both are linked together. Surely humility does not lead one to depression.

 

[ar.]

We are following basically two paths. One that will lead us downward, to a lower level of living, where our tendencies are self-destructive and base and end up harming others around us as well. The other path leads to greater joy, peace, and harmony with those around us. Since God created us, He must know how we need to live in order for us to experience that joy and peace. All the commandments are geared toward that end. They aren't meant to be a burden.

But wouldn't it be a fair argument to say that some people are burdened by Christian laws? Would you chalk that up to those people not understanding the law or what? I was never really comfortable with Christianity's stance on lots of major issues, but I was assured that if I didn't follow them, or if I rejected their validity as laws, then I would be going to hell.

I guess the part that concerns me the most -- and I do want to understand, not criticise -- is that the idea of Christianity is great; follow these laws, believe in Jesus and everlasting life is yours. The concept is really nice, but it doesn't seem to follow through, particularly with the idea that the only way to get to the Father is through Jesus. What that basically culminates in is the fact that if you disagree with the laws, and choose not to follow them, reject Christianity's stance on certain issues, even if you fully believe in others, then you aren't apart of Christianity, and you aren't apart of those who will be saved.

So, your choices are:
1. Follow laws that you don't believe in, out of guilt or pressure.
2. Go to hell. Literally.

At least, that was the path that my experience led me down. The exclusionary quality of the Christian faith drove me away -- those who follow this exactly get the afterlife they want, and those who don't get to burn. There's no wiggle room at all, except for those who have never heard of Jesus, they get special consideration, but me, who just never felt very connected spiritually to Jesus or Christian laws and philosophy, and refused to play pretend at church every week, praying to G-d for forgiveness because of the general dishonesty of me being there, I go to hell.

That hardly seems fair.

Ar.