Do you agree with this statement..?

People can live by reason, and I hope they are happy. Humanism has been very kind to the world. Others live by spirit and that is good too. Spirituality has been kind also.

How reasonable is it to conclude that man's nuclear reactors need intelligent design, but the cosmic solar reactors don't? Did they just come into existence by mere chance? When we contemplate the human body and the mind, we are amazed by their brilliant designs. An instrument cannot create another instrument greater than itself, thus we will have to admit that there is a greater intelligence or consciousness than ourselves. Can we expect to see the one who created all the spectacular things in the universe with human eyes, when we cannot even look directly at the sun? We surely would burn if the larger stars were closer to the earth, then how is it possible for mortals to see pure consciousness with human eyes? What other proof do we need of pure consciousness than the fantastic natural phenomena of life? Do we need to light a candle to see the sun? I see pure consciousness as God the Father.

Christian Mysticism
 
An instrument cannot create another instrument greater than itself, thus we will have to admit that there is a greater intelligence or consciousness than ourselves.

Sorry, can you expand on that statement for me.

No offence, but I fear that you have fallen into the age old thing of filling a gap when something is not fully understood.
 
To design a machine is an intellectual activity that takes intelligence more than that machine, and yes I believe we can with the help of intelligent machines design an ultraintelligent machine, which would give us even better machines. The untra intelligent machines made with man and intelligent machines could leave the intelligence of man far behind.
 
I believe we can with the help of intelligent machines design an ultraintelligent machine, which would give us even better machines. The untra intelligent machines made with man and intelligent machines could leave the intelligence of man far behind.

I see.

And I also agree.

Do you see this as being a positive or a negative?
 
Namaste soma,

thank you for the post.

soma said:
How reasonable is it to conclude that man's nuclear reactors need intelligent design, but the cosmic solar reactors don't?

it really depends on how such terms are defined. for a being like myself not only is such a proposition reasonable it is, indeed, the only reasonable proposition to consider.

Did they just come into existence by mere chance?

physics and chemistry isn't "mere chance" hjowever that turn of phrased is oft used to be dismissive of the cosmological events under consideration.

When we contemplate the human body and the mind, we are amazed by their brilliant designs.

the human body is a terrible design, i am not in the least bit amazed by it. the human body is quite the opposite of a brilliant design.... you have to breath and eat through the same passageway and your eye has a blind spot!

An instrument cannot create another instrument greater than itself,

do you know what machine tools are? your argument would lead to me to conclude that using a hammer i could never make anything 'greater' (though i'm not really sure what that means so i may have to change my answer if you define it differently than i) yet one can easily conclude that a chair is greater than a hammer. perhaps you mean something like more complex. if that is so, i would suggest a study of microprocessors to see how, as the saying goes, the whole is more than the sum of its parts.

thus we will have to admit that there is a greater intelligence or consciousness than ourselves.

there is no intersubjective evidence of such and therefore no particular reason to have to admit anything along these lines. indeed, without intersubjective evidence one is well justified to withold consent to such propositions.

What other proof do we need of pure consciousness than the fantastic natural phenomena of life?

what does "pure consciousness mean" is that a mystic term for a creator deity?

Do we need to light a candle to see the sun? I see pure consciousness as God the Father.

oh.. well, that answers that :)

i'm happy to consider any and all intersubjective evidence that you have to offer for the subject under discussion.

metta,

~v
 
Extraordinary claims demand extraodinary evidence?

Seems fair.

The burden of proof and evidence should indeed lie with the person making the claim.

Therefore, if it is a quite spectaclar claim, then quite spectacular proof and evidence is a must, surely?

I would be surprised to hear a Christian or some other theist concur with that opening statement, since the v premise of their life is believing in an extraordianry series of claims, without any proof or evidence (and I mean real and measurable proof), of those claims.

For such a person to agree with the statement, would surely be a contradiction in terms, one would think?



*Shrugs*

The kind of 'investment' that someone who has faith in an invisible man in the sky makes does not require any proof that is "real and measurable" or intersubjective. The psychology of belief is now well measured and understood and the constructs of the ego that bolster faith have nothing to do with proof. Religion is irrational. You do not use rationality to shore it up, you use further irrationalities.

However, religions should be compelled to provide proof or else lose the right to teach it to children, enjoy tax exemptions and be represented in government. My opinion is that the indoctrination of children we see around the world is a great crime. And anyone who allows their child to be so brainwiped is criminally negligent at best. The childs brain is evolutionarily designed to believe its parents and responsible adults charged with care for the child. Religions teach utter nonsense to children and do so at the impressionable believe anything age. It is not criminal, for many irrational reasons, but should be and any parent that allows it to happen to their child should remember and be aware they are guilty of child mutilation.


tao
 
A hammer can be used to make a chair, which is greater than the hammer, but man is making it not the hammer. Can we expect to see the one who created all the spectacular things in the universe with human eyes, when we cannot even look directly at the sun? We surely would burn if the larger stars were closer to the earth, then how is it possible for mortals to see pure consciousness with human eyes? What other proof do we need of pure consciousness than the fantastic natural phenomena of life? Do we need to light a candle to see the sun?

God can't be proven. I would say the proof is in the experience. If one gets high and expands the consciousness with a concept then stay with that concept until it leads you to a new more powerful concept that brings better results.
 
A hammer can be used to make a chair, which is greater than the hammer, but man is making it not the hammer. Can we expect to see the one who created all the spectacular things in the universe with human eyes, when we cannot even look directly at the sun? We surely would burn if the larger stars were closer to the earth, then how is it possible for mortals to see pure consciousness with human eyes? What other proof do we need of pure consciousness than the fantastic natural phenomena of life? Do we need to light a candle to see the sun?

God can't be proven. I would say the proof is in the experience. If one gets high and expands the consciousness with a concept then stay with that concept until it leads you to a new more powerful concept that brings better results.

Lol.

Translation.

There is no proof, as there is probably no god.

;)
 
I love to watch this age old arguement rofl. Is their a God.... Maybe.. Can I prove it no. Is it Bad to teach kids in such a thing. Id doubt it. No worse then santa cluase rofl!!!! Now If Kids are tought they should kill others cuase they believe differently then yeh Id agree thats terrible.

Not everything tuaght in school is 100% provable. Evolution would be one. Great theory and some of it Id say is true just as is somethings tought by faith.... Butttt their is no way to prove everything like wether we came from Monkeys or bugs rofl.... OR on the other hand No way we can prove some man in the sky picked up sand and blew on it and then their was a new mortal man rofl... To me People should be able to believe it cuase for one their is no proof on how exactly we came about. lol nothing concrete sooo why not LOL.....

Do I believe.... Well Ive seen things in this life that would let me lean more towards yes then no, but thats just me. Do I follow religion... nooooo.. Now I'm not as dogmatic about hating it like tao, but I do lean more in his direction as far as religion goes. Even Jesus of the bible spoke out against the religious elite in his day and Id say for the same reasons most of us are a little weary of organized religion... rofl

Sorry if I got off topic rofl but in the arguement of wether their is proof in God or Santa....lol you have to find it personally... If their is such a thing ;) And IF you do I can Garentee you will not have a single reindeer to show me as evidence.... LOL Nor will you ever be able to show me your pixies if you should find one in the garden rofl hahahahaha... But Id respect you If you told me yah Did. LOL maybe I might think your nuts but I will respect you. Till you give me reason for no respect. ;)

Let Love and reason rule all
Mike
 
The kind of 'investment' that someone who has faith in an invisible man in the sky makes does not require any proof that is "real and measurable" or intersubjective. The psychology of belief is now well measured and understood and the constructs of the ego that bolster faith have nothing to do with proof. Religion is irrational. You do not use rationality to shore it up, you use further irrationalities.

However, religions should be compelled to provide proof or else lose the right to teach it to children, enjoy tax exemptions and be represented in government. My opinion is that the indoctrination of children we see around the world is a great crime. And anyone who allows their child to be so brainwiped is criminally negligent at best. The childs brain is evolutionarily designed to believe its parents and responsible adults charged with care for the child. Religions teach utter nonsense to children and do so at the impressionable believe anything age. It is not criminal, for many irrational reasons, but should be and any parent that allows it to happen to their child should remember and be aware they are guilty of child mutilation.


tao

Top post, and well said, sir.
 
Only if and when the receiver is asking - not demanding, with sincerity, a bead within him or herself on WHAT is desired, and an openess much like a child. Then the claim becomes an offering of possibility. Evidence then takes on an air more of enjoyment and gratitude. That is a journey beginning within a person to a realm with no borders, hence immeasurable.

So to our arrogance, yes 100% correct - outrageous. But does the mission behind that 'claim' address arrogance within or the pristine within that like a seed, waits to be opened, grown and felt?

The kingdom of acceptance is by no means blind. But our sight in this regard is not for reading, our hearing not for words, our feeling not for emotion. Without an 'outrageous' acceptance by the receiver, our world only offers books, words and emotion. (which are significant to the human experience)

The claimant and the receiver therefore must be in sync, which the claimant can facilitate and deliver upon. With arrogance the kingdom of ignorance will continue on in typical tragic fashion.

With real thirst, acceptance is easy. Fear replaced with confidence, frustration in relativity filled with unending Joy, sense of emptiness filled, containers of acceptance replaced with larger 'containers'.

Within seems contained in 3D. Reality is borderless. The exploration and the mining take place within. That's where Peace, once called "the Kingdom of God" exists without containment, seemingly growing as your acceptance allows.

Prove it to me attitudes scream for an air of humility, the larger picture lacking in knowing what that person REALLY WANTS. Be accurate with that wish, and outrageous happens, Gift and Giver.
 
I place my trust in reason and rationale.

I do too.

My belief about believing :))) in God is that belief in God is not necessarily irrational, nor is it necessarily irrational to not believe in God. The belief itself is neither rational nor irrational. Rationality of belief in God is a property of the person who possesses that belief. It's a matter of how that person justifies their belief.

What I do consider irrational is believing that you have to believe either way that God either does or doesn't exist, and that it is rational for everybody to have the same belief. It is where one's belief about believing is that there is only one, single, same/identical answer for everybody universally and collectively. I don't agree with that.

Are people who believe in a 'god' thick? Of course not. On the contrary, many are highly intelligent individuals who, in all other areas of their lives apply logic and reason - EXCEPT to this one area. This is classic decomparmentalisation at work. That is to say that one is able to apply logic and reason to all other areas of their life, save for one area, where they leave reason and rationale at the door.

I don't agree that belief in God is irrational. My reason is this. People cannot be objective about whether or not God exists. Because people cannot be objective about whether or not God exists, it shouldn't be irrational to believe either way. Rather, I consider it irrational to believe that everybody has to believe one way or the other, considering that you can't be objective about it.

To me, what makes belief or disbelief in God irrational is not the belief itself, but when the person arrogantly asserts that his/her belief is better than that of another person who holds a differing or opposing belief. The irrationally is not in the belief itself, but the belief about the belief. I think it's irrational, also to believe that the belief or disbelief in God is more rational than the other.

Perhaps I should call it the meta-belief for the existence of God.

Concerning the existence of God, atheists and theists with humble belief in their own beliefs are rational. Atheists and theists with arrogant belief in their own beliefs are irrational. The rational belief about beliefs is therefore to not believe that one's beliefs is better than someone else's beliefs.

It's a question of "beliefs for me" vs. "beliefs for others."

That is how I rationalise that belief/disbelief in God is never irrational in itself. It is only irrational when one thinks one's beliefs are superior to those of another.

I am not here to 'undermine' anything, as such. That said, despite this being an 'interfaith' forum, I see no harm in me, as an atheist, challenging the assertions that there is a god.

If faith is a personal thing, then I am not "asserting" anything to you, only to myself.

More importantly, if faith in a God isn't a social problem and doesn't have consequences in wider society, I don't see why you should challenge it. Most of the time, it is appropriate to challenge a belief only because it is a social problem.

I am not saying that belief in God is never a social problem, but often it's not belief in God in itself, but the belief that God authorises certain decisions, actions or sentiments. In that case you should challenge not the belief in God, but the belief that God authorises certain decisions, actions or sentiments.

I apply “logic and reason” where I see it as appropriate. This therefore means that it does not appertain to all areas of life however. ........... So it is with matters of faith, as far as I can see. I’m not asserting a magic mate in the sky and thus placing the onus of the asserter to provide evidence. I’m someone who thinks of “faith” as being a little more (for want of a better word) sophisticated than the high school notion of a “magic mate in the sky”. If I have a concept of God, it is not one that I reify. Faith, I believe, is part of a different paradigm than science, in the same way that me enjoying music is different than me working out how to put a piece of furniture together (by using appropriate logic and reason; or if that fails looking at the instructions). :p

I'm not disagreeing with you here, but I would just like to point out (not referring to you personally), that people tend to use the term "reason" as if logic and reasoning were the same thing. I disagree with that idea. Logic is just a subset of reasoning. It is only one kind of reasoning.

There are other kinds of reasoning, like mathematical, emotional, sentimental reasoning, etc.

Also, what disqualifies the thinking that artists and musicians use from being "reasoning?" No, it isn't left-hemisphere thinking, but just because it isn't left-hemisphere thinking doesn't mean it isn't "reasoning."

What disqualifies resolution of problems in personal relationships from being "reasoning?" Resolution of problems in personal relationships involves thinking about one's feelings and emotions. It therefore requires emotional reasoning. You can't resolve problems in relationships by logic, science and mathematics. No, you have to use your feelings because feelings are the way to go in relationships. Doing otherwise dehumanises the relationship.

Problem solving involves reasoning. Resolution of problems in personal relationships doesn't involve logic but one's emotions. We should therefore call it emotional reasoning. Logic, therefore is not the only kind of reasoning. It is only a subset of everything we might mean under the "blanket term" of "reasoning."
 
I think its perfectly reasonable to say that. Extraordinary evidence might be quantum mechanics in a scientist mind, and then extraordinary evidence might be the stars, to a philosopher. Of course the evidence herein is based on the extraordinary claim that fueled the fire in this threads subject.

Me, personally, I dont believe in a magic man in the sky, but as soma said, All of that above and beyond, below and within is the universal light and fire that manifests itself supreme creater/deity through medium of thought/belief.

I think religion should be regarded as Philosophy, (all religions) because Its not enough to search for tangible evidence for something you dont need to identify how the earth spins with. Its just not that materially important, What is important though, is the Contemplation of Thoughts and Ideas.
 
Panda, I like what you wrote. I posted this in another thread. Maybe it is a thread that can unite. We call the unifying force different names, but it is all the same.

String Theory 1968—the idea that everything is made of tiny, vibrating strands of energy. This energy, a vibration holds the unifying world of the very large and the world of the very small together in pure consciousness.
 
Me, personally, I dont believe in a magic man in the sky, but as soma said, All of that above and beyond, below and within is the universal light and fire that manifests itself supreme creater/deity through medium of thought/belief..

Hi Panda,

Nor me, but what does the rest of what you wrote actually mean?
 
I'll have a look at that later, Dondi.

How do you make words into a link like that, btw?

:)

Click on Quick Reply or Reply/Quote to edit a reply.

Then, go copy the URL address on the other webpage.

Come back to your reply page and as you are replying to a post, highlight the words you want to use for you link, as in my example reasonable faith.

Then go up to the same area in Quick Reply where you would Bold, Italic, and Underline. You should see a "world" symbol (for a lack of a better description, it will actually say "Insert Link" if you roll you're cursor above it). Click on the symbol and a box will show up for you to paste you link address.

Enjoy!
 
Hi Panda,

Nor me, but what does the rest of what you wrote actually mean?

That I think the stars, and the sand underneath the sea, as well as your heart, and mine, all come from the same universal spark. Just as soma said in reply to me, 'We call the unifying force different things, but its all the same.' I try to change my explanation for totality, because I believe in essense, words shouldnt be tagged to something, they literally cannot explain. It seems appropriate to describe the thing that is 'all' with anything you seem fitting for the situation. Since the situation is happening 'all' in 'all' anyways. Therefore, I speak way too figuratively for almost any scientists mind, and too under questioningly for any philosophers mind, while remaining too seamlessly to fit into any cult/group/denomination. Thats why I said the part you quoted.

Furthermore, if the above is once again terribly worded for lack of more terrible explanation/excuse. I'll just translate again, Simple taoism.


above and beyond, below and within is the universal light and fire
all things come from the things they are.

supreme creater/deity through medium of thought/belief..
all structuralized patterned belief systems, from the abrahamic traditions to the ancient eastern systematic ideas, all the way back to old mythologys.

If youd like me to reword the whole paragraph again, I could. It might just perpetuate though haha.
 
Panda I like the abstract because the mind according to one's awareness can fill in the blanks.

One for all and all for One.
 
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