Proof of God

[c0de]

A Muslim.

Okay.

Tell me, and this is from memory, so excuse me, is it so that in the Koran it explains how Mohammed was illiterate, and how god came down from the heavens, and literally picked him up, squeezed him, and from that day on, he was able to read and write, and go educate his people.

Is that a fairish gist?

Not exactly.

The Prophet was not taught to read and write.
He was just given revelation. He recited it to people.

And that was the Angel Gabriel who appeared to him, not God Himself.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Not exactly.

The Prophet was not taught to read and write.
He was just given revelation. He recited it to people.

And that was the Angel Gabriel who appeared to him, not God Himself.

The asylums are full of people claiming angels and gods talk to them. Would you devote your life to one of them?

 

[enlightenment]

Not exactly.

The Prophet was not taught to read and write.
He was just given revelation. He recited it to people.

And that was the Angel Gabriel who appeared to him, not God Himself.

I believe that Muslims do accept that Jesus was a prophet too, right?

Just not the son of god.

Since Jesus apparently pre dated Mohammed by some time, why is it the word of a latter day prophet that you listen to, rather than one that lived further back, in time.

Do you accept that the Koran, like the OT, has many passages which are of dubious and even violent content?

 

[greymare]

Just as an aside here.........
some people dont need proof. some just know.
i needed proof.......... i searched and searched.........i gave up................
and then in a particular time of desperation, ( and there were many times previous that i felt completely alone)...... i just said out loud...." ok, god, if you are there show me... show me what you want me to know............." He answered in a way i could never have imagined.............. it was here..... on cr/interfaith.........
Now, Idont have all the answers and I certainly dont know the bible, but now I know.
And thats all i need.
Simple.
Its the truth, its personal. Its not the same probably for anyone else, but now I have no doubt.
so, when you are asking for proof, i suggest you dont look for scriptures or prophets try looking deeper, look in the mirror.......look at your family.
Theres your proof.

 

[greymare]

Since both of you are clearly not capable of having a real discussion
as is evidenced by your complete inability to come up with an actual
rebuttal... You leave me no choice, but to stoop down to your level,
and post utter irrelevant BS.... So let the flame wars begin








... lol

So tell me, do you both live in a place called "Pleasentville"??
Is everything like black and white where you come from???
Do people still wear suspenders and those big black specs
and walk around with oily hair, smokin pipes and stuff???

LOL., what wrong with suspenders, code?
oh, i get itnow, you mean suspenders that hold your pants up,, lol i was thinking suspender stockings. lol my bad. carry on..........

 

[c0de]

Enlightenment + Grey

Since Jesus apparently pre dated Mohammed by some time, why is it the word of a latter day prophet that you listen to, rather than one that lived further back, in time.

Do you accept that the Koran, like the OT, has many passages which are of dubious and even violent content?

Why do Christians read the New Testament when the Old Testament came first?

And which "dubious" or "violent" passages are you referring to exactly?
The ones which allowed the early Muslims to defend themselves against
genocide? Or the ones which prohibited them from ever being aggressive?

Its the truth, its personal. Its not the same probably for anyone else, but now I have no doubt.
so, when you are asking for proof, i suggest you dont look for scriptures or prophets try looking deeper, look in the mirror.......look at your family.
Theres your proof.

Honestly, I did not start this thread to turn atheists into believers.
The point of this thread is to negate the idea that even though faith
lies outside rationality, the claim that atheists make that our faith is
less then rational, that is wrong. Our beliefs are beyond reason, not
below it.

In this thread, I provided only one argument which proves that God has
to exist from the standpoint of science and causality. The previous
attempts by atheists tried to show a discrepancy in the scientific
argument but didn't succeed. This new attempt isn't even trying to deal
with the actual argument. Instead their just keeping distance and hoping
that mere ridicule will give the impression that their position is stronger.
btw, the only reason this thread got started again is because
Mr. "enlightenment" was making fun of religion on his own thread and
claimed that the faith of believers is idiotic.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Enlightenment + Grey





Why do Christians read the New Testament when the Old Testament came first?

And which "dubious" or "violent" passages are you referring to exactly?
The ones which allowed the early Muslims to defend themselves against
genocide? Or the ones which prohibited them from ever being aggressive?








Honestly, I did not start this thread to turn atheists into believers.
The point of this thread is to negate the idea that even though faith
lies outside rationality, the claim that atheists make that our faith is
less then rational, that is wrong. Our beliefs are beyond reason, not
below it.

In this thread, I provided only one argument which proves that God has
to exist from the standpoint of science and causality. The previous
attempts by atheists tried to show a discrepancy in the scientific
argument but didn't succeed. This new attempt isn't even trying to deal
with the actual argument. Instead their just keeping distance and hoping
that mere ridicule will give the impression that their position is stronger.
btw, the only reason this thread got started again is because
Mr. "enlightenment" was making fun of religion on his own thread and
claimed that the faith of believers is idiotic.

That is funny, in reading your posts I see little but blanket denial to face the most basic irreducible facts combined with deliberate provocation and outright insult to any that might challenge your hyper-inflated ego. You do not even support belief in any god, all you do is blow the trumpet of your own arrogance. You use belief as a prop, nothing more.

 

[c0de]

That is funny, in reading your posts I see little but blanket denial to face the most basic irreducible facts combined with deliberate provocation and outright insult to any that might challenge your hyper-inflated ego. You do not even support belief in any god, all you do is blow the trumpet of your own arrogance. You use belief as a prop, nothing more.

You know what's even funnier? You actually seem to think that
I care what you think of me... Why is that?

As you long as you fail to present an actual argument, or rebut
the ones in the first post, your not actually gonna get anywhere
there bud.

 

[enlightenment]

Code. Give it a rest, grow up, and stop playing with my user name. It wasn't funny first time mate, and this is about the sixth time you have done it....it is getting really boring now.

Okay, we get it, you have no proof.

That's fine.

All you needed to do was admit that, and we'd have been golden.

I have no idea why Christians read from the NT and not the OT, you should ask one, or perhaps someone here will tell you.

The general populace always seem to be referring to violence within the Koran, I have not read it all the way through, I wanted your thoughts, that was all.

No matter...

 

[enlightenment]

so, when you are asking for proof, i suggest you dont look for scriptures or prophets try looking deeper, look in the mirror.......look at your family.
Theres your proof.

Hi Grey,

All that would prove is that I have relations. It is not proof of a supernatural creator.

Thanks

 

[Dream]

Hey, don't get me wrong, there maybe was a time when religion had an imporant role to play, in the creation of socities, I will perhaps give it that.

But I just find it incredible that otherwise rational people do not think rationally about the claims in the Bible and Koran, for example.
.....
I have no idea why Christians read from the NT and not the OT, you should ask one, or perhaps someone here will tell you.

The general populace always seem to be referring to violence within the Koran, I have not read it all the way through, I wanted your thoughts, that was all.

This is crazy, E. Interfaith is not just idle conversation but powerful diplomacy, but you actually believe that enlightenment comes from you! You're so happy to be out of the dark ages, but you lambaste folks who are act according to their consciences and think for themselves. By doing this you intend to show Muslims the way? Thanks for taking someone who lives by their conscience and making them out to be a traitor to reason and to their own people! Thanks. You have demonstrated to other Muslims that you think c0de is not a free thinker, but he is and is also an honest one.

If we ever need a war started, you are the diplomat for the job. Most of all, thank you for being that devil that christian zionists and twelvers so desperately need to get wwIII started. Its good to know that preachers will always have someone eccentric to scare their congregations with. Thanks, and keep sipping the wine.

 

[enlightenment]

This is crazy, E. Interfaith is not just idle conversation but powerful diplomacy, but you actually believe that enlightenment comes from you! You're so happy to be out of the dark ages, but you lambaste folks who are act according to their consciences and think for themselves. By doing this you intend to show Muslims the way? Thanks for taking someone who lives by their conscience and making them out to be a traitor to reason and to their own people! Thanks. You have demonstrated to other Muslims that you think c0de is not a free thinker, but he is and is also an honest one.

If we ever need a war started, you are the diplomat for the job. Most of all, thank you for being that devil that christian zionists and twelvers so desperately need to get wwIII started. Its good to know that preachers will always have someone eccentric to scare their congregations with. Thanks, and keep sipping the wine.

Um.

Thanks for the rant.

Are you done?

 

[c0de]

Dream + Mr. "Enlightenment"


@ Dream

thnx bud

btw, I enjoyed your very accurate analysis of the
enlightened conduct of Mr. Enlightenment... (lol)



@ "Enlightenment"

You want me to "stop playing with your username" ??? (lol)
You think its "not funny" ??? Think its getting old and "boring",
is it???? (LMAO)

Well... (struggles to stop lauging). I dont know about that man...
cuz its still pretty funny to me. And thanks for enlightening me on
the fact that its starting to bother you.. That revelation will, I am
sure, come in handy.

btw, if you really want me to lay off your username, then try actually
presenting me with something more... Neither you, nor Resigned, nor
NewDawn have actually said anything other then try and ridicule me
personally... All I have done is follow suit... so whats the matter?
You can dish it out but can't take it???

 

[Resigned]

This is crazy, E. Interfaith is not just idle conversation but powerful diplomacy, but you actually believe that enlightenment comes from you! You're so happy to be out of the dark ages, but you lambaste folks who are act according to their consciences and think for themselves. By doing this you intend to show Muslims the way? Thanks for taking someone who lives by their conscience and making them out to be a traitor to reason and to their own people! Thanks. You have demonstrated to other Muslims that you think c0de is not a free thinker, but he is and is also an honest one.

If we ever need a war started, you are the diplomat for the job. Most of all, thank you for being that devil that christian zionists and twelvers so desperately need to get wwIII started. Its good to know that preachers will always have someone eccentric to scare their congregations with. Thanks, and keep sipping the wine.

I take exception to the claim that religious belief is function of clear thinking. Most people accept what their theistic beliefs are for many reasons, but rarely do they apply very hard standards to those reasons. They tend to be cultural (i.e., you grew up in a social environment that preferred one belief over another), or anecdotal (you believe in certain events that for you define a specific belief, like a Hindu may have examples of "reincarnation" whereas a Catholic will "see visions of Mary", etc.), or there is simply a resonance in the belief system you select. And of course, I'll even include the possibility (but not probability) that one selects a belief because they actually do hear directly from the Supreme Being.


But none of them make the absolute case of authority -- hence, I select the default position of atheism until such time as there is a clear defining reason to select one over the other.

 

[enlightenment]

Dream + Mr. "Enlightenment"


@ Dream

thnx bud

btw, I enjoyed your very accurate analysis of the
enlightened conduct of Mr. Enlightenment... (lol)



@ "Enlightenment"

You want me to "stop playing with your username" ??? (lol)
You think its "not funny" ??? Think its getting old and "boring",
is it???? (LMAO)

Well... (struggles to stop lauging). I dont know about that man...
cuz its still pretty funny to me. And thanks for enlightening me on
the fact that its starting to bother you.. That revelation will, I am
sure, come in handy.

btw, if you really want me to lay off your username, then try actually
presenting me with something more... Neither you, nor Resigned, nor
NewDawn have actually said anything other then try and ridicule me
personally... All I have done is follow suit... so whats the matter?
You can dish it out but can't take it???

It doesn't bother me, in the way that you think.

What 'bothers' me more is the fact that you started a thread, one which was clearly titled PROOF of god, and after several failed attempts to find any, you have done what I would expect you to do, and act as a juvenille would do.

Why not take the thread back on topic, rather than the ad hom's?

Proof?

What do you have?

Thanks

 

[Dream]

I take exception to the claim that religious belief is function of clear thinking. ....And of course, I'll even include the possibility (but not probability) that one selects a belief because they actually do hear directly from the Supreme Being.

But none of them make the absolute case of authority -- hence, I select the default position of atheism until such time as there is a clear defining reason to select one over the other.

c0de also does not claim absolute authority. It is good that you have your own opinion even if it is that religious belief "is not a function of clear thinking." That does not mean you have clearer thinking than someone who admits to believing something different than you. Fanatics will not learn from people that are different from themselves. I think you can understand this is the only thinking difference between you and a fanatic. You do not believe that your perspective is infallibly an improvement upon all others, however fanatics do.

 

[enlightenment]

Even with gods there is regime change.

People used to believe in Zeus for example, over time, it became folklore, and we now accept it as such.

Perhaps over a LONG time, one day we will look back, and view the god of the abrahamic faiths, in the same way?

Just a thought..

 

[Resigned]

Dream + Mr. "Enlightenment"


@ Dream

thnx bud

btw, I enjoyed your very accurate analysis of the
enlightened conduct of Mr. Enlightenment... (lol)



@ "Enlightenment"

You want me to "stop playing with your username" ??? (lol)
You think its "not funny" ??? Think its getting old and "boring",
is it???? (LMAO)

Well... (struggles to stop lauging). I dont know about that man...
cuz its still pretty funny to me. And thanks for enlightening me on
the fact that its starting to bother you.. That revelation will, I am
sure, come in handy.

btw, if you really want me to lay off your username, then try actually
presenting me with something more... Neither you, nor Resigned, nor
NewDawn have actually said anything other then try and ridicule me
personally... All I have done is follow suit... so whats the matter?
You can dish it out but can't take it???

That’s not true at all. You were requested by me and others to provide
evidence for your claims. You refused to do so. I then spent the time
back on page 4 to lay out (in excruciating detail), the problems
inherent in your claims. You hand–waived that off with a snide comment
that was actually designed to shield you from taking the time to
actually account for your claims.

Six pages now. Still no proof.

 

[wil]

That’s not true at all. You were requested by me and others to provide
evidence for your claims. You refused to do so. I then spent the time
back on page 4 to lay out (in excruciating detail), the problems
inherent in your claims. You hand–waived that off with a snide comment
that was actually designed to shield you from taking the time to
actually account for your claims.

Six pages now. Still no proof.

The OP stated his proof. It appears instead of rebutting his proof you told him what you required as proof.

I require no proof. I can use a cell phone, I don't know its mechanisms, can't build one, couldn't tell anyone how it works or how it is made...but I can push the buttons and get the desired result. The same exists for my religion. Now I am a Christian that Atheists hate, because my definition of G!d doesn't fit their definition of G!d and I believe the bible to be full of stories, myth, allegory, violence, parables, illicit sex and good and bad examples...and not all written by the finger of G!d as I don't believe in G!d's finger...

 

[enlightenment]

I require no proof.

In three words. There we have it.