Inculcating Violence

[Abdullah]

Do you ever get the feeling that a big part of the reason that there is so much violence in the Middle East, or wherever there is significant Muslim population, is because violence is inculcated so much in the Holy Koran and Hadith?

No, not at all; we all have violents, and not just the Muslim community

Peace

 

[Avi]

Hi,

I am new to this forum, so I hope I do not say anything to offend anyone

But one of the reasons I would like to participate in interfaith discussion is because I feel that one of the biggest crimes in history is violence in the name of religion. It seems to me that the Abrahamic religions have more in common than makes them different and through politics and manipulation have there been wars and violence.

Am I being naive ?

This particular thread jumped out at me because I think it hits on such a central issue of why dialogue is needed.

Thanks.

 

[Netti-Netti]

But one of the reasons I would like to participate in interfaith discussion is because I feel that one of the biggest crimes in history is violence in the name of religion.

Did you have any examples for us in particular? Which of the Crusades should we discuss?

This particular thread jumped out at me because I think it hits on such a central issue of why dialogue is needed.

Avi1223,

You're probably not naive. But it's possible you haven't looked around this forum. This same topic comes up every other day and for some reason it never goes anywhere.

I suspect there is no closure because discussants limit their analysis to assumptions, conjecture, and remote inferences. When presented with facts, they ignore them and go start another thread that invariably will have the exact same problems as the other one.

There is a study that shows that people with a right wing mind set are actually not interested in new information. In effect, they are doomed to perpetuate their ignorance.

The lack of intellectual curiosity would explain the obsessive preoccupation with simplistic talking points, the primitive, repetitive, sloganeering quality of their discourse, the tendency to see the world in black/white terms, and the undue focus on emotional overtones (fear, resentment, conflict, malice, etc) to the exclusion of relevant facts.

Do you ever get the feeling that a big part of the reason that there is so much violence in the Middle East, or wherever there is significant Muslim population, is because violence is inculcated so much in the Holy Koran and Hadith?

Not really. If you recall, the Koran includes a major contribution to war ethics, i.e., the protection of noncombatants. A thousand years after the Koran, European cultures were still killing indiscriminately. "Kill them all. G-d will sort them out."

But good opener for another of the Same-Old-Same-Old kind of thread that, as usual, will go nowhere. But we have to waste our time somehow....

 

[Abdullah]

Hi,

I am new to this forum, so I hope I do not say anything to offend anyone

But one of the reasons I would like to participate in interfaith discussion is because I feel that one of the biggest crimes in history is violence in the name of religion. It seems to me that the Abrahamic religions have more in common than makes them different and through politics and manipulation have there been wars and violence.

Am I being naive ?

This particular thread jumped out at me because I think it hits on such a central issue of why dialogue is needed.

Thanks.

Hi Avi1223 and wellcome to the forum

You are right that indeed one of the biggest crimes ever is violence in the name of religion. for then, not only do people commit henious crimes, but they do it while being conciencious of God which makes their crime all the more evil

However you are slightly off the mark when it coems to comparing the Abrahimic faiths in their violence and for that anynoe could be excused for without proper insight into the Islamic fatih and with all the widespread propaganda from the media, it is easy to come to such a conclusion

Now ofcourse all three religions have been involved in wars throughout history... especially Christianty and Islam, and Jews participated in instigating and supporting wars and probably/possibly taking part in them as well and only in the last several decades have they relentlessly perpetrat ed the m since aquring the means to...

But where Islam differs from them is, any attrocity commited by Muslims is never justified by Islam itself, thus it's religious wars were confined to strictly self-defence and combating opression as a last resort with the most strictest and humane of guidlenes;

compare that with the Christian Crusades where every Muslim man woman and child was fair game to the Christians [and they even canibalised them up in one of them ], and still continues to be so but under the guise of 'collateral damage' and that of the jews who dont even care guising it up a bit but parrot such rhetoric with a smiling face anyway, and the violence [that which does not accord to ethical Islamic wars] of the Muslims which have dwindled down to only a 'handful' of vigilantes, and the stark contrast becomes clear

Peace

 

[Avi]

Netti -Netti - thanks for your comments.



Quote Avi - This particular thread jumped out at me because I think it hits on such a central issue of why dialogue is needed.

Avi1223,

You're probably not naive. But it's possible you haven't looked around this forum. This same topic comes up every other day and for some reason it never goes anywhere.

I suspect there is no closure because discussants limit their analysis to assumptions, conjecture, and remote inferences. When presented with facts, they ignore them and go start another thread that invariably will have the exact same problems as the other one.

This does not sound good. From the limited reading I have done of other posters in this forum, there are some open minded people, who are interested in sharing information, ideas and opinions, those are the ones I hope to communicate with.

There is a study that shows that people with a right wing mind set are actually not interested in new information. In effect, they are doomed to perpetuate their ignorance.

As the cliche goes, some of my best friends are righties . But I tend to be more of a leftie myself

The lack of intellectual curiosity would explain the obsessive preoccupation with simplistic talking points, the primitive, repetitive, sloganeering quality of their discourse, the tendency to see the world in black/white terms, and the undue focus on emotional overtones (fear, resentment, conflict, malice, etc) to the exclusion of relevant facts.

I have not come to this forum for simplistic discussion. I hope I can contribute to a more positive tone.

 

[Avi]

Hi Abdullah

Hi Avi1223 and wellcome to the forum

Thank you for your welcome.

You are right that indeed one of the biggest crimes ever is violence in the name of religion. for then, not only do people commit henious crimes, but they do it while being conciencious of God which makes their crime all the more evil

However you are slightly off the mark when it coems to comparing the Abrahimic faiths in their violence and for that anynoe could be excused for without proper insight into the Islamic fatih and with all the widespread propaganda from the media, it is easy to come to such a conclusion

I am starting from a point in my studies of history where I can see fault in all the three major Abrahamic religions. I will try not to be defensive or apologetic in my observations.

Now ofcourse all three religions have been involved in wars throughout history... especially Christianty and Islam, and Jews participated in instigating and supporting wars and probably/possibly taking part in them as well and only in the last several decades have they relentlessly perpetrat ed the m since aquring the means to...

I see trends in history that whoever has been in power has used that power to oppress the other groups. I hope that as we move forward we will choose leaders who are willing and able to break that paradigm. In my view, this is the real challenge we face today. Each group has its own extremists and these folks are willing to kill for their religion and kill others as well. I think that is our real problem.

But where Islam differs from them is, any attrocity commited by Muslims is never justified by Islam itself, thus it's religious wars were confined to strictly self-defence and combating opression as a last resort with the most strictest and humane of guidlenes;

I am glad to hear that Islam does not justify atrocities. I believe that true followers of each of the Abrahamic faiths believe this as well. It is the power hungary people that act otherwise. One of the possible roles of dialogue is to get the real message out.

compare that with the Christian Crusades where every Muslim man woman and child was fair game to the Christians [and they even canibalised them up in one of them ], and still continues to be so but under the guise of 'collateral damage' and that of the jews who dont even care guising it up a bit but parrot such rhetoric with a smiling face anyway, and the violence [that which does not accord to ethical Islamic wars] of the Muslims which have dwindled down to only a 'handful' of vigilantes, and the stark contrast becomes clear

I hope no one in this forum would condone killing of women and children of any race or religion.

Peace

And peace to you as well.

 

[Avi]

Hi Netti - Netti

Quote Avi - This particular thread jumped out at me because I think it hits on such a central issue of why dialogue is needed.

Avi1223,

You're probably not naive. But it's possible you haven't looked around this forum. This same topic comes up every other day and for some reason it never goes anywhere.

I suspect there is no closure because discussants limit their analysis to assumptions, conjecture, and remote inferences. When presented with facts, they ignore them and go start another thread that invariably will have the exact same problems as the other one.

This does not sound good. From the limited reading I have done of other posters in this forum, there are some open minded people, who are interested in sharing information, ideas and opinions, those are the ones I hope to communicate with.

There is a study that shows that people with a right wing mind set are actually not interested in new information. In effect, they are doomed to perpetuate their ignorance.

As the cliche goes, some of my best friends are righties. But I tend to agree more with the lefties.

The lack of intellectual curiosity would explain the obsessive preoccupation with simplistic talking points, the primitive, repetitive, sloganeering quality of their discourse, the tendency to see the world in black/white terms, and the undue focus on emotional overtones (fear, resentment, conflict, malice, etc) to the exclusion of relevant facts.

I have not come to this forum for that sort of discussion. I hope I can contribute to a more positive tone.

 

[Amica]

Salaam--
No. The violence is not caused by so much "violence" in the Holy Qur'an or the Hadith.
I think there are numerous reasons for today's problems, some of which are: historical colonizations, israeli occupation of Palestininans, and misconceptions about cultural traditions and Islaam in daily life.
The Holy Qur'an was not revealed for violence, nor is it a book that is to mean that one should be in a constant war with the rest of the world. If what is implied in the post were true, then how come majority of the Muslims in the world are not at war with someone? To my understanding even Arab countries are not in a war, except the fragile region surrounding Israel.
The Holy Qur'an, like the Holy Bible, describes numerous war accounts between the people the Books were revealed to and those who oppose them.
So, why don't you ask the same question to the Jews and Christians: the reason why there are wars wherever Christians/Jews are or go is because of the Bible? After all, didn't Hitler in his sick mind want to exterminate the Jews "who killed his god"? What about Serbs who decided, although the fight was for the land of Bosnia, to also 'help revert back all those Christians' who 'converted to Islaam,' or else...? They stilll claim Muslims in Bosnia 'are really Christians.' What about most recent other wars that Christians have started--i.e. Bush, who believes he talks to God, and attacked Iraq based on lies which cost not only Muslim lives but also American lives?
No. It is a sorry excuse to use either the Holy Bible or the Holy Qur'an to claim that one is driven to violence because of them. Any person with a bead of sanity in their mind, will abide to the overall message: believe and live in peace.

 

[Avi]

I like the name you have chosen, Amica, it has the name "friend" embeded

The Holy Qur'an was not revealed for violence, nor is it a book that is to mean that one should be in a constant war with the rest of the world.

I am glad to hear this is how you feel. Actually, my comment about the correlation between religion and violence was not aimed at any one religion. I believe all the major religions have been guility of this practice.

What about most recent other wars that Christians have started--i.e. Bush, who believes he talks to God, and attacked Iraq based on lies which cost not only Muslim lives but also American lives?

I voted for Obama I hope he will bring peace to the Middle East !! And a new direction for race relations !!

Any person with a bead of sanity in their mind, will abide to the overall message: believe and live in peace.

Agreed !! Peace to you

 

[inhumility]

Do you ever get the feeling that a big part of the reason that there is so much violence in the Middle East, or wherever there is significant Muslim population, is because violence is inculcated so much in the Holy Koran and Hadith?

Hi

Islam is a peaceful faith/religion. The first, primary and of its complete source of Islam is Quran. Hadith came much later, after the demise of Muhammad and the Truly Guided Caliphs of Muslims. It is very essential that everything should be established from the source of Quran which is acceptable to every Muslim, whatever the denomination, in my opinion.

If you have read the Quran, or anybody else reading this post, then kindly quote from Quran with the text and the context from it; usually, the context of Quran is given in the five preceding and five following verses of the Quran.

I think this helps

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

 

[17th Angel]

Humility, The Dude no longer resides......

Although with his question, I don't think it is because of "violence in the hadiths and Qu'ran" I just think it's a violent culture lol.. That cannot be argued.... "oh you've never been we are peaceful..." Mate, you chop a persons hand off for stealing that is freaking violent and extreme and over the top.... most forms of "justice" and "law" are in violence.... You punish with violence you gain more violence... You are teaching the younger generations and your people to solve problems with violence...

 

[inhumility]

I just think it's a violent culture

Hi

Yes you are right the traditional Muslims have adopted this culture thing from the medieval Muslim scholars who were the right hand of the Conqueror Rulers. They are not supported by Islam/Quran/Muhammad.

Islam/Quran/Muhammad are peaceful from the very inception.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

http://paarsurrey.wordpress.com

 

[Netti-Netti]

Humility, The Dude no longer resides......

Although with his question, I don't think it is because of "violence in the hadiths and Qu'ran" I just think it's a violent culture lol.. That cannot be argued.... "oh you've never been we are peaceful..." Mate, you chop a persons hand off for stealing that is freaking violent ...

The USA has an operational death penalty. In contrast, there are Muslim countries that have the death penalty in their penal code but haven't executed anyone in years.

 

[17th Angel]

Hence... Violent culture? missing the other part of my post... Any violent act that is used for "justice" is teaching man to react with violence... If there is a problem then no problem!! Quickly solved with death or another form of aggression... It's like beating kids when they misbehave... Yes you can include USA into that if you want lol.

 

[farhan]

So what about the "enlightened monks" who practice most lethal forms of Kungfu

 

[17th Angel]

They use it as an art though right? An art like that in the comfort of their own little comfy temple /dojo whatever.... That isn't really violence I feel. It's more like a dance lol.... Not sure I'd call it lethal... I have experienced people trying to use this lethal art in a 'real' fight lol... It don't work so good then.

It's not like they are going out and going all Steven Segal on peoples butts!!! Simply just a yoga dance thing... I guess they haven't got anything better to do.... Seeing there is no TV or net an all....

 

[farhan]

Come on man, I have seen "in reality" bones broken with a single kick. What if that kick made contact with skull? .... instant death.

Yes its an art, but so is chopping hands...lol

 

[17th Angel]

There is no art in chopping hands...... That is a quick unskilled swing and chop... Someone has had their hand butchered off in the name of some bs justice... Cause of what? They stole something wow... If the world was right people wouldn't have to steal as people wouldn't be found to be wanting nor needing... :S But dressing up in some fancy pants dress and giving it all the hiyah ka pow and spining around and looking a tit.... That my friend is an art.

 

[farhan]

There is no art in chopping hands...... That is a quick unskilled swing and chop...

It is, ever been to a butcher's shop? I cant chop meat in ten tries the way he does in one.

Someone has had their hand butchered off in the name of some bs justice... Cause of what? They stole something wow... If the world was right people wouldn't have to steal as people wouldn't be found to be wanting nor needing... :S

Good point. If a person's food, medicine, housing, education are free, & his emotions/greed arnt getting manipulated, & still he steals, what then? Its like in USSR being unemployed was a crime, you cant make the same laws in a capitalist country. Same is the case is amputations. Applying them in a free-market economy would be counter-productive, because there will always be poor & rich, & poor will always steal from the rich. Its kind of, their right.

 

[17th Angel]

It takes brute force.... Removing limbs, parts of a body isn't that hard... All you need is force and the proper tool.... An Axe(cleaver) or a saw suffice.. force isn't a skill. There will always be rich and poor? Like... Forever?

If everything is free? And someone steals? lol... Then you laugh, because it's free.....