Gender Identity in Religion

Sure, there are many studies showing genetic influence on sexual preference. However, the identical twin studies positively show that we are not bound by our genetics in regards to sexuality--identical twins only show a 40% correlation for homosexuality, which shows genetic tendancies account for a maximum of 40% when it comes to an individual's sexuality. (Like I said, even though there might be pornography in the library, you are not obliged to read it.)

Google the studies up, Tao. They are quite interesting.

I will dig it up. But even so given the results of that study and the societal pressures against being gay would it not be reasonable to assume that no more than 40% of people who do have gender preferences outside the norm ever 'come out'. Is it not the case that it is this 40% that represents those that openly declare their sexuality and that they do so because for that 40% it is in fact irrepressible? If this is so it is no counter to the position I take.


tao
 
I will dig it up. But even so given the results of that study and the societal pressures against being gay would it not be reasonable to assume that no more than 40% of people who do have gender preferences outside the norm ever 'come out'. Is it not the case that it is this 40% that represents those that openly declare their sexuality and that they do so because for that 40% it is in fact irrepressible? If this is so it is no counter to the position I take.


tao

Societal pressures/customs do have an influence on sexual behavior. (Check out the institutionalized homosexuality in ancient Sparta.)
 
Undoubtably societal pressures have an influence, that is not in question. How many people 'come out' in Saudi Arabia for example?

I have done a little digging and found two studies on twins. The emergent consensus seems to be that it is not genetics alone but genes do play a role. More it seems to be how hormones effect the genes in the early stages of foetal development in the womb. What is agreed by all researchers is that people are born with disposition.

In one particular case study that was mentioned a pair of identical twins was one gay, one straight. They had been studied from birth and their emerging behaviour patterns set them apart from the very beginning. While they were identical twins this can be misleading. They may share identical genetic information but from the moment they began their separate development in the womb their in utero environment allowed them to recieve different cocktails of hormones. And it seems to be this that influences gender.

That evolution has allowed gender variables as a possibility states that they are natural variations within the gene pool. They are born that way and should not be forced to conform or suppress their natural predisposition. Studies show that about 2 to 3 %, (not the 1 in 10 gay lobby groups like to cite), of people have gender non-conformity. take this globally and it would be akin to saying nobody who is French is allowed to go to church. (control yourself Alex).

I think the debate of whether or not gay and transgender people are born that way or not is over. It is only the fine detail that needs to be sorted out. But the issue of whether a church is or is not allowed to discriminate against people for the way they are born is a serious issue and one that should be legislated for if the churches continue to display such overt and unjustifiable discrimination.


tao
 
Societal pressures/customs do have an influence on sexual behavior. (Check out the institutionalized homosexuality in ancient Sparta.)


Exactly, and institutionalization of gender/sexuality related biases hasn't stopped since Sparta either. It is more common in contemporary society then we usually notice, both officially and unofficially. Of the top of my head, the American Navy kept a ban on homosexuals until recently; Much of the demanding occupations in the military do not allow female recruits; Freemasonry for example does not allow women membership; In addition, there are mens clubs, and womens clubs in every society which base their membership solely on gender. These are examples of an official instance of Gender/Sexuality Bias

All of this is considered acceptable and we haven't even begun considering all the informal institutionalization, the significance of which far outstrips the official institutions. How many board rooms of the Fortune 500 companies have women directors for example? But before we ask such questions, we need to ask ourselves whether we really want to go down this road? Because if we do, we will end up having to generate theories on why most fantasy baseball tournaments only have male participants.

Personally, I do not see much point in trying to come up with solutions to such problems. Why? Because most of society does not even acknowledge these issues as "problems". What are we mere mortals to do about that? The Feminist movement has been trying to call attention to such problems for decades. The Gay Rights movement is much less mature by comparison. Eventually they will realize, just as the feminists did: you can break official institutions much easier then informal ones. Maybe they already have realized it.

So before we even begin to ask questions on on Gender Bias in Religion, I think we have to address the question of the Gender/Sexuality Biases in Society at large. And before anyone raises the objection that Religion is a major influence on attitudes on sexuality and gender, let me just point out that most of Western societies are not particularly religious, but gender biases are strong and holding. So this issue really doesn't have much to do with religion. Also, since this bias seems to be present everywhere, in all societies, in all parts of the world, we need to accept the problem as deeply ingrained in the human psyche. As such, the solution would require, ironically, a change of religious proportions.

With that said, I will admit that I do see homosexuality as a deviance, because I am required to see it as such because of my religious values. But in this case, my views are much less complicated. Homosexuality seems to me to be completely non-functional for society. Even when I can see potential benefits in other unlawful activities prohibited by religion, this one... I just do not see any operative benefit whatsoever, for either the individual or civilization. You could argue a case for the acceptance of drugs as more utilitarian much more easily then for homosexuality. But that's just my opinion.
 
So before we even begin to ask questions on on Gender Bias in Religion, I think we have to address the question of the Gender/Sexuality Biases in Society at large. And before anyone raises the objection that Religion is a major influence on attitudes on sexuality and gender, let me just point out that most of Western societies are not particularly religious, but gender biases are strong and holding.
Nonsense. In the west amongst the secularists there is broad support for gender equality in EVERY respect. The opposition comes almost exclusively from religions and hate groups.


With that said, I will admit that I do see homosexuality as a deviance, because I am required to see it as such because of my religious values. But in this case, my views are much less complicated. Homosexuality seems to me to be completely non-functional for society. Even when I can see potential benefits in other unlawful activities prohibited by religion, this one... I just do not see any operative benefit whatsoever, for either the individual or civilization. You could argue a case for the acceptance of drugs as more utilitarian much more easily then for homosexuality. But that's just my opinion.

It is your opinion and it surprises me not. I note your opinion has absolutely no regard for the feeling nor the human rights of people born that way. But then that is a common thread in Islam.

tao
 
Through my life my tendency has been a 'distaste' for homosexuality. I love women and the thought of intimacy with a man is repugnant to me. Even here on other threads I have argued at length about what I see as the wrongs of so called 'positive discrimination'. I think many gays would even call me homophobic. But as time has passed and more studies have published I have been forced to accept that it is not merely a lifestyle choice, but a disposition that a person should not be forced to repress. It harms nobody. It can only offend ignorance and intollerance. And no institution of any kind should be permitted to discriminate against people for it.

For me it all changed when I saw a documentary on trans-sexual people. It was where you often had (but not always) "girls born with penises" and "boys born with vaginas." But even without the bits, a woman could have a predominantly masculine personality and a man could have a feminine personality. You'd have a man who is a man on the outside, but emotionally, he's a woman. If he gets married to a woman, things aren't going to work out . . . he needs a sex change.

I started thinking . . . if a person born with man's body could have a feminine personality, could a feminine personality not be attracted to another feminine personality? If you could have misplaced bodies, why not also deviant minds? This is what homosexuality is, it is a person of a particular gender attracted to the same gender. It's not the body. It's the mind.

I make a distinction between sex and gender. Sex is physical. Gender is emotional. The impression I've got from self-confessed homosexuals is that homosexuality isn't physical. It's emotional. That means that homosexuality doesn't really exist. It's not a sexual thing. It's a gender thing. It shouldn't be called homosexuality. It should be called "homogenderality," if such a word exists. That also means that there's no such thing as heterosexuality either. It's heterogenderality. Same with bisexuality. There are no bisexuals. It's bigenderality. Nevertheless, I think I should continue using these terms to avoid confusion.

You could also have trans-sexual homosexuals. Suppose you have a trans-sexual woman, a woman with a masculine personality. If that woman is also homosexual, then she'd be attracted to a man. On the outside, things seem normal. It's a man with a woman's body attracted to a man with a man's body. What people don't know is that it's a man trapped inside a woman's body. It's a masculine personality attracted to another masculine personality.

It may be true that people may have some control over their sexuality, that you could become homosexual or heterosexual. I have imagined, at some stages in my life, what it would mean to be attracted to a man. There is a possibility that if I really pushed myself, that if I really wanted to be attracted to men, I could effect a tremendous, lengthy and time-consuming emotional transformation, over several years, where I would "learn" to be homosexual.

This has not been proven, because I have never experimented on that, and nor do I want to because I like who I am. Having said that, I can understand how homosexuals must feel about this. They realise they are homosexual and like what they are, even though society despises them. Homosexual men like being attracted to men. Homosexual women like being attracted to women. Heterosexuals like being attracted to the opposite sex.

If a heterosexual like me is unwilling to attempt an emotional transformation to homosexuality (which might not even be possible in the first place), why expect homosexuals to do the same? It's a bit unfair.

It's like asking them to do plastic/cosmetic surgery (and, pardon me, if I may mention it, penile enlargement). It's saying that they shouldn't be happy with themselves, that they should be ashamed of themselves.
 

@ Tao



Nonsense. In the west amongst the secularists there is broad support for gender equality in EVERY respect. The opposition comes almost exclusively from religions and hate groups.

Officially... But that does not have much to do with my point. I was mainly addressing the views of your average joe, not your secularist intellectuals on campuses. You yourself stated that up until very recently you would have been considered homophobic. I am sure you realize that you were not alone.


It is your opinion and it surprises me not. I note your opinion has absolutely no regard for the feeling nor the human rights of people born that way. But then that is a common thread in Islam.

tao
First of all, I myself have indulged in much more harmful activities (to myself and others) then homosexuality in my past so I am in no way stating that I am better then anyone who says he/she is a homosexual. Second of all, You are assuming that I am not for granting homosexuals their rights. That is false. I would never deny any homosexual their rights (legal or those based in everyday civility). However, I do see homosexuality as a fault, and that I admit. But I have no personal grudge against homosexuals. Unlike you Tao, I was never homophobic. The question for me, is academic.

But lets move on to this statement of yours: "of people born that way". Even if we assume that you are right, and genetics do determine sexual preference *(you have not established this as of yet, but for the sake of discussion)* does that mean that everything genetic is automatically positive and should be encouraged? Studies have shown people can be born with a genetic disposition towards alcoholism. Does that mean we should encourage alcohol abuse, or stop seeing alcoholism as a fault?

You can make the argument that seeing homosexuality as a fault is wrong morally because it causes emotional harm to the people who identify themselves as such. But you will have to accept that this is a weak argument to begin with. All the people who oppose homosexuality also base their argument in morality. So the two basically cancel out. The only way to decide between the two parties is to define morality. And whose definition do you use? The Church? The school playground? The campus elites? The pub at the local corner? Take your pick, but know that it will not matter much in the real world. The Church will remain 'holy' and the playground, brutal.

The last thing I would say is that it would be best for your purposes Tao, and others who want to see these biases in society abolished, that you somehow prove that homosexuality serves some functional purpose and brings benefit for society. I have noticed that this is the quickest and easiest way to bring about (at least a marginal) shift in society's attitudes. Just look at the issue of immigration. The attitude towards it changes drastically as soon as people realize that it is not for the benefit of the immigrants who come over, as much as it is for the necessity of the host country who needs them.
 
With that said, I will admit that I do see homosexuality as a deviance, because I am required to see it as such because of my religious values. But in this case, my views are much less complicated. Homosexuality seems to me to be completely non-functional for society. Even when I can see potential benefits in other unlawful activities prohibited by religion, this one... I just do not see any operative benefit whatsoever, for either the individual or civilization. You could argue a case for the acceptance of drugs as more utilitarian much more easily then for homosexuality. But that's just my opinion.
Actually, I have an idea about the function they might serve in society:

When men start viewing women merely as sex objects, and then object when women get angry over their overt advances, a homosexual making advances towards such a man can cause that man to experience the feeling of being viewed merely as a sex object. (Although the homosexual making the advance might run the risk of being assaulted.)
 
Should the demands of individuals always take precedence?

What if I demand to take part in the 100M at the Olympics. If I fail to meet the criteria laid down by the organisation, should I sue it for discrimination?

s.
 
How is it "their" religion?

If I’m understanding you right, and maybe I’m not, then it is “their” religion by dint of the fact that it pre-existed the individual (for an established religion). The Catholic Church has been around for quite a long time, are you saying it should change everything about it that I don’t like (as an individual) so that I can then join? It would no longer be the Catholic Church!

It is about time individuals started suing the churches
I didn’t know you were so keen to help people to join churches Tao! Or perhaps, as an atheist, that isn’t your real motivation in this?

s.
 
Actually, I have an idea about the function they might serve in society:

When men start viewing women merely as sex objects, and then object when women get angry over their overt advances, a homosexual making advances towards such a man can cause that man to experience the feeling of being viewed merely as a sex object. (Although the homosexual making the advance might run the risk of being assaulted.)

My gay friends will be overjoyed to hear that what they thought were pointless lives are actually part of a wider function in society. :rolleyes:

s.
 
Hi Saltmeister,

All your points are fine but I would not agree that you can be a religion of one in Christianity. It is very much a communal religion. Not to say that you can't be a Christian with alternative beliefs...but if all of my beliefs were alternative I'd not be a Christian but a lunamothian.

For some people being a "me-ian" is really all they desire and so to each his own. *shrug* I would not argue with anyone about this.

luna
 


@ Seattlegal



Actually, I have an idea about the function they might serve in society:

When men start viewing women merely as sex objects, and then object when women get angry over their overt advances, a homosexual making advances towards such a man can cause that man to experience the feeling of being viewed merely as a sex object. (Although the homosexual making the advance might run the risk of being assaulted.)


Well, someone is thinking out of the box. :) But I think that same purpose is already accomplished by overt advances by women on men.
 
@ Seattlegal





Well, someone is thinking out of the box. :) But I think that same purpose is already accomplished by overt advances by women on men.
Alright, I admit that it can be difficult to contain my thinking to a box, and I frequently wander off topic. :eek:
Do you think that a woman giving a man overt advances would be in danger of the kind of violent reaction a homosexual who does the same might receive? (Keeping in mind that I see rape as a form of violence.)
 
Alright, I admit that it can be difficult to contain my thinking to a box, and I frequently wander off topic. :eek:
Do you think that a woman giving a man overt advances would be in danger of the kind of violent reaction a homosexual who does the same might receive? (Keeping in mind that I see rape as a form of violence.)


Wait I'm confused... What you just said, isnt that one more reason that shows how homosexuality is not functional? Doesn't that go against the point you were trying to make? :confused: (Btw, i'm pretty sure thinking 'out of the box' is a good thing. ;))
 
Do you think that a woman giving a man overt advances would be in danger of the kind of violent reaction a homosexual who does the same might receive?
It would totally depend.

Some men do resent being treated as a sex object, others don't. The woman's style would make a difference too.

As for social reactions to homosexual overtures, those are highly varied and situational as well. I don't see why a violent reaction would be the only one to be expected. There are many other possible reactions that don't involve the kind of stereotyped [SIZE=-1]mind set that presumably would lead to a negative/defensive reaction.

Btw, homophobia and sexism are correlated, which would suggest that the same kind of person who would be uncomfortable and defensive in reaction to advances from a gay would also be uncomfortable with hetero advances.

As for functional value: as long as there are gays, "family values" proponents will have a talking point in their repertoire. They will also have a quasi-Biblical grounds for asserting their personal righteousness and also for asserting their authority in defining social deviance. This in turn helps them perpetuate the illusion that they can exercise control over other people's civil liberties with a certain measure of legitimacy. In other words, it's a largely self-serving narcissistic fantasy with a sociopolitical dimension to it.

Homosexuality is known as a "divisive issue" in that it can be used to define an ingroup and an outgroup. It seems be part of a constellation of trait-like beliefs subsumed under the rubric of "Right-wing authoritarianism, social dominance orientation, and prejudice" (Bernard Whitley). As such, it is an aspect of a culture of rigid ideological commitments, conflict, raw power, and interpersonal violence.

Homophobia is routinely exploited by political activists who want to keep a conflict dynamic going in order to influence power-seeking behavior. [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Homophobic propaganda [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]is used particularly to appeal to a certain voting demographic.



[/SIZE]
 
It would totally depend.

Some men do resent being treated as a sex object, others don't. The woman's style would make a difference too.

As for social reactions to homosexual overtures, those are highly varied and situational as well. I don't see why a violent reaction would be the only one to be expected. There are many other possible reactions that don't involve the kind of stereotyped [SIZE=-1]mind set that presumably would lead to a negative/defensive reaction.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Btw, homophobia and sexism are correlated, which would suggest that the same kind of person who would be uncomfortable and defensive in reaction to advances from a gay would also be uncomfortable with hetero advances. [/SIZE]
I think it might be safe to assume that if the man whom is getting the sexual advances from the homosexual is not gay, that those sexual advances would be unwelcome. That is the point I was making.

If a man complains about women getting snippy when the man makes unwanted sexual advances towards women (viewing them merely as sex objects,) then if that man gets snippy with a homosexual that makes an unwanted advance on him, then that man would have a better understanding why the women act the way they do towards them.
[SIZE=-1]
As for functional value: as long as there are gays, "family values" proponents will have a talking point in their repertoire. They will also have a quasi-Biblical grounds for asserting their personal righteousness and also for asserting their authority in defining social deviance. This in turn helps them perpetuate the illusion that they can exercise control over other people's civil liberties with a certain measure of legitimacy. In other words, it's a largely self-serving narcissistic fantasy with a sociopolitical dimension to it.
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Homosexuality is known as a "divisive issue" in that it can be used to define an ingroup and an outgroup. It seems be part of a constellation of trait-like beliefs subsumed under the rubric of "Right-wing authoritarianism, social dominance orientation, and prejudice" (Bernard Whitley). As such, it is an aspect of a culture of rigid ideological commitments, conflict, raw power, and interpersonal violence.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Homophobia is routinely exploited by political activists who want to keep a conflict dynamic going in order to influence power-seeking behavior. [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Homophobic propaganda [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]is used particularly to appeal to a certain voting demographic.[/SIZE]
Well, now, I was looking at it calmly from individual perspective, while you seem to want to look at it in a hostile manner from a collectivist perspective. (And I thought sexuality was an individual thing, rather than a group sport. Silly me.)
 
Wait I'm confused... What you just said, isnt that one more reason that shows how homosexuality is not functional? Doesn't that go against the point you were trying to make? :confused: (Btw, i'm pretty sure thinking 'out of the box' is a good thing. ;))
It would serve a function on an individual basis.

Now, other than procreation, specifically, how does heterosexuality functionally serve society?
 
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