Ezra

[Nick_A]

Hi cOde

It is an established fact that the Quran indicates that prophets were sent to every nation. So it is very possible that a man like Buddah or Zoroaster etc. were actually the prophets of God who transmitted the unity of God to their people. But their teachings, over time, became diluted and corrupted. This obviously a Islamicly biased view, but that is the view of the Quran.

The teachings began as conscious teachings but gradually devolved into the world as mechanical secular exoteric expressions of our fallen human nature. I agree. But I also believe it is the same with Islam.

At the exoteric level Islam has the same contradictions and hypocrisy as Christendom. It must since this hypocrisy is an expression of the human condition itself. You were discussing the rape thread and this practice of stoning. It is a perverted exoteric expression to preserve societal power and control and has nothing to do with the transcendent origin of the Quran. Jesus said that let he who is without sin cast the first stone. I'm quite sure that all those relishing in the stoning were not without sin and suspect a similar warning is written someplace in the Quran.

As for question 1, the answer can be determined by a simple inquiry: Take Hinduism and Islam. In Hinduism, the idea that God can be divided and sub divided and united with his creation through these lower deities, and that we can access God through these deities, is a concept completely contradictory to Islam. Just because there is a supreme deity at the top, does not mean there is agreement between the two religions.

But suppose you are expressing your own exoteric appreciation of the Quran? Exoteric means what you've learned rather than inwardly experienced. Consider this excerpt from the article.

He insists that the unity of the different religions is not only unrealizable on the external level, that of the forms themselves, but ought not to be realized at that level even were this possible, for in that case the revealed forms would be deprived of their sufficient reason. The very fact that they are revealed, he claims, “shows that they are willed by the Divine Word.” He uses the word “transcendent” in the title because it means that the unity of the religious forms must be realized in a purely inward and spiritual way and without prejudice to any particular form. “The antagonisms between these forms no more affect the one universal Truth than the antagonisms between opposing colors affect the transmission of the one uncolored light."

The suggestion here is that these paths must be different at the exoteric level and only begin to join at a much higher place along the vertical direction and the esoteric level of each religion. So what you are saying is normal for the exoteric level in yourself. The question is if it may change and reflect the SPIRIT of the Quran if you entered the esoteric level of the teaching? It is hard for followers of any of the great traditions to accept that their literal appreciation and faith is just an introduction to the spirit of the teaching itself. It is ego deflating but I believe it to be an essential truth that the sincere seeker must face. Socrates said he knew nothing and it was why the Oracle considered him wise. Perhaps it is something all believers have to face before they can begin to move from the exoteric into the esoteric level of their path and experience the Spirit of it.

As for the second question, the reason why I consider the Quran to be the best religion, and the best model that God has bestowed upon humanity, is simply because of blind faith. Remember Nick, when you begin to walk a path, you are by definition walking away from others. When you are open to one, you are closed to another. This is just the way it is. I can not consider any other model as being equal to Islam. That is part of my faith.

I distinguish between blind faith and conscious faith. blind faith is a normal part of the exoteric level while conscious faith is a developing human attribute of one who has made the efforts necessary for the esoteric level. Even the disciples didn't have conscious faith which is why they asked Jesus to increase their faith.


The beginnings of conscious faith is illustrated in the Bible through Jesus meeting with the Centurion:

Luke 7:

1When Jesus had finished saying all this in the hearing of the people, he entered Capernaum. 2There a centurion's servant, whom his master valued highly, was sick and about to die. 3The centurion heard of Jesus and sent some elders of the Jews to him, asking him to come and heal his servant. 4When they came to Jesus, they pleaded earnestly with him, "This man deserves to have you do this, 5because he loves our nation and has built our synagogue." 6So Jesus went with them.
He was not far from the house when the centurion sent friends to say to him: "Lord, don't trouble yourself, for I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. 7That is why I did not even consider myself worthy to come to you. But say the word, and my servant will be healed. 8For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it." 9When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd following him, he said, "I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel." 10Then the men who had been sent returned to the house and found the servant well.

The text has many inner psychological meanings but at the surface the faith of the Centurion is valued because he has vertical awareness. He sees that he is a "middle" He is nothing compared to what is above him and yet has authority over what is below. He receives from above and gives to below. It can only be sustained consciously but this vertical faith or "presence" is what leads to freedom from attachment to the earth. Our faith is linear in that we have faith IN something or someone in relation to our conditioning. One of my goals is consciously developing more "presence" which connects the higher and lower in me and an attribute referred to by Jesus as "faith."

Is walking a path, really walking away from another? It maybe so at the exoteric level. I agree that on the exoteric level with the goal of transcendence via the esoteric, it is not good to mix things. This is why secular interfaith cannot lead anywhere because it picks and chooses what is defines as worth believing. it doesn't realize that certain "contradictions' are put into each faith for the sake of forcing the seeker to confront themselves. and the truth of their being. Not going through this revealing experience of self knowledge just makes a teaching impotent in its transcendent goal and lost in feel good thoughts.
However, this really isn't walking away from another teaching but rather realizing taht we are all in the same boat of self deception and the similarities will become evident once we are not dominated psychologically by the conditioned exoteric level in ourselves.

Lastly, the religion of Islam (proper) is not the only path towards God. The Quran makes it very clear that God guides believers... not just Muslims. Anyone who believes in the unity of God and does good, is granted access. That is the spirit of Islam. As long as you believe in the unity of God, and believe in doing good, you are following the spirit of religion that God ordered man to follow.

The trouble is that sincere efforts to "know thyself" reveals how far we are from it both at our personal level and as part of the societal level. The human condition is so that we believe one moment and not the next. Peter was in tears when he experienced how easily he denied Jesus. It is something we must experience. We are capable of both the height of compassion and the most horrid destruction. Which are we? We are both.

In the Bible "Christ" refers to the "law" while Jesus refers to the "good" of the law. The purpose of the law is to create the good. When taken together as Jesus Christ it refers to the unification of the good with the law. Jesus became necessary because human nature became so corrupt that the law could no longer serve its purpose and became a tool of societal manipulation and power.

It seems to me that it is the same with the Quran. It becomes abused natural for the corrupt human ego. The abuses of both the Bible and Quran reveal the truth of the human condition to me and the limitations of the exoteric level. I was taught at the exoteric level in schools and churches. I've begun to feel the value of the esoteric level by direct experience with the corruption of the exoteric level that makes it meaningless as far as my relationship to higher consciousness. I admit my ignorance and become open to help from above for the sake of freedom from exoteric hypocrisy both in myself and in the world. From what you've written, it doesn't seem to contradict the spirit of the Quran..

 

[Radunzel]

dahm this arguement is the internet equivelant of pissing in the wind.. how many times in your scriptures does it say god is one?Where does it say god is 3?IRRESPECTIVE of coment on jehovah being the Godhead.. and the creation being lesser.. when you call them a trinity it gives each equal terms with god..lets compare the abrahamicsDo the Jews Believe in the YHWH and segregate the Holy spirit? no..Do muslims believe in allah (Swt) and segregate the holy spirit? no..If God is the creater on his own being one.. then how can multiples manifest therein? its is all part of the one..

 

[Nick_A]

dahm this arguement is the internet equivelant of pissing in the wind.. how many times in your scriptures does it say god is one?Where does it say god is 3?IRRESPECTIVE of coment on jehovah being the Godhead.. and the creation being lesser.. when you call them a trinity it gives each equal terms with god..lets compare the abrahamicsDo the Jews Believe in the YHWH and segregate the Holy spirit? no..Do muslims believe in allah (Swt) and segregate the holy spirit? no..If God is the creater on his own being one.. then how can multiples manifest therein? its is all part of the one..

In Christianity the Trinity is a mystery. It is only a mystery because the only way to grasp the significance is by experienceing this vertical direction. It is impossible from our normal linear perspective.

All sacred texts have the purpose of inspiring the esoteric thought process rather than defining esoteric thoughts. It the experiencing the process itself that leads to freedom from literal thought that traps man to the earth and justifies the fallen human condition.

 

[c0de]

@ Nick

The text has many inner psychological meanings but at the surface the faith of the Centurion is valued because he has vertical awareness. He sees that he is a "middle" He is nothing compared to what is above him and yet has authority over what is below. He receives from above and gives to below. It can only be sustained consciously but this vertical faith or "presence" is what leads to freedom from attachment to the earth. Our faith is linear in that we have faith IN something or someone in relation to our conditioning. One of my goals is consciously developing more "presence" which connects the higher and lower in me and an attribute referred to by Jesus as "faith."

You missed something in that passage. The key there was not the "vertical awareness" of the centurion... it was his humility. It is that quality which attracts man to God... When God is attracted to man, that is when He chooses to bestow whatever favor on man, that He sees fit.

I distinguish between blind faith and conscious faith. blind faith is a normal part of the exoteric level while conscious faith is a developing human attribute of one who has made the efforts necessary for the esoteric level. Even the disciples didn't have conscious faith which is why they asked Jesus to increase their faith.

Do you think you can consciously move yourself up from one level to the next? Like some Sufis/Buddhists? You think you have that control?

Socrates said he knew nothing and it was why the Oracle considered him wise. Perhaps it is something all believers have to face before they can begin to move from the exoteric into the esoteric level of their path and experience the Spirit of it.

Do you spot the subtle contradiction here? Move where? Higher up the chain of knowledge? Accept the fact that you will always know very little... (especially in this life) despite whichever level you think you are working from.

The question is if it may change and reflect the SPIRIT of the Quran if you entered the esoteric level of the teaching?

You are assuming you know the esoteric meanings of the Quran, but you have not read it. Well, if you do not want to take my word for it, then you should read it yourself. You will find out that there is no way to interpret the words of the Quran as being supportive of the Hindu model.

Is walking a path, really walking away from another? It maybe so at the exoteric level.Is walking a path, really walking away from another? It maybe so at the exoteric level. I agree that on the exoteric level with the goal of transcendence via the esoteric, it is not good to mix things. This is why secular interfaith cannot lead anywhere because it picks and chooses what is defines as worth believing. it doesn't realize that certain "contradictions' are put into each faith for the sake of forcing the seeker to confront themselves. and the truth of their being. Not going through this revealing experience of self knowledge just makes a teaching impotent in its transcendent goal and lost in feel good thoughts.
However, this really isn't walking away from another teaching but rather realizing taht we are all in the same boat of self deception and the similarities will become evident once we are not dominated psychologically by the conditioned exoteric level in ourselves.

You have not yet understood the esoteric level enough Nick to start qualifing differences between paths Nick. Your assumption that the path you have chosen is esoteric, and the path I am following is exoteric, is unqualified.

 

[Nick_A]

Hi cOde

You missed something in that passage. The key there was not the "vertical awareness" of the centurion... it was his humility. It is that quality which attracts man to God... When God is attracted to man, that is when He chooses to bestow whatever favor on man, that He sees fit.

When one inwardly experiences their nothingness in relation to the above, I believe humility is natural. many people are humble in relation to societal dictates.and are oppressed. This is something different and is related to our personality. The experience of our connection with the above is an attribute we are born with. The humility of our personality is easily effected by false prophets yet the inner taste of what is real is different.

Do you think you can consciously move yourself up from one level to the next? Like some Sufis/Buddhists? You think you have that control?

No. We need help from above. we are always at the beginning. However we can consciously change the quality of this beginning by making it more pure. The greater the quality of the beginning, the greater the quality of help.

Do you spot the subtle contradiction here? Move where? Higher up the chain of knowledge? Accept the fact that you will always know very little... (especially in this life) despite whichever level you think you are working from.

The chain of knowledge is horizontal while the chain of being is vertical. There is no such thing as a Christian computer even though it may contain the entire Bible. The reason is that it lacks being even though it has acquired knowledge.

You are assuming you know the esoteric meanings of the Quran, but you have not read it. Well, if you do not want to take my word for it, then you should read it yourself. You will find out that there is no way to interpret the words of the Quran as being supportive of the Hindu model.

There are objective and subjective truths. Conscious truths are by their nature objective while conditioned truths are by their nature subjective. I accept that the Quran is based on objective conscious truths that have been corrupted as what happens with all the traditions and producing their exoteric expressions.

We know exoteric expressions of the Hindu model and the Quran. The author says they shouldn't be united at the exoteric level. I agree.

You have not yet understood the esoteric level enough Nick to start qualifing differences between paths Nick. Your assumption that the path you have chosen is esoteric, and the path I am following is exoteric, is unqualified.

No. not at all. I've just come to the same conclusions that Simone Weil did and all exoteric interpretations are meaningless as they relate to the spiritual needs of the Inner man. Seeing the problem is the first step and I've become open to it.

"To believe in God is not a decision we can make. All we can do is decide not to give our love to false gods. In the first place, we can decide not to believe that the future contains for us an all-sufficient good. The future is made of the same stuff as the present....

"...It is not for man to seek, or even to believe in God. He has only to refuse to believe in everything that is not God. This refusal does not presuppose belief. It is enough to recognize, what is obvious to any mind, that all the goods of this world, past, present, or future, real or imaginary, are finite and limited and radically incapable of satisfying the desire which burns perpetually with in us for an infinite and perfect good... It is not a matter of self-questioning or searching. A man has only to persist in his refusal, and one day or another God will come to him."
-- Weil, Simone, ON SCIENCE, NECESSITY, AND THE LOVE OF GOD, edited by Richard Rees, London, Oxford University Press, 1968.- ©

 

[c0de]

Hi Nick

I accept that the Quran is based on objective conscious truths that have been corrupted as what happens with all the traditions and producing their exoteric expressions.

How could the truths of the Quran be corrupted? The Quran is the same today as it was the day it was revealed. It is the scriptures of the other religions that have been diluted Nick.

No. We need help from above. we are always at the beginning. However we can consciously change the quality of this beginning by making it more pure. The greater the quality of the beginning, the greater the quality of help.

There is nothing purer for this purpose then the Quran. And according to the Quran, once the seeker accepts this, and follows God's path as outlined in the Quran, it is God Himself who becomes the Guide for the seeker. I will personally attest to this.

 

[Nick_A]

I am perfectly willing that the Bible was corrupted by secular interests in order to produce the Spanish Inquisition. I don't find this hard to do since it makes perfect sense considering the human condition.

Why can't the quran be corrupted to produce the exoteric result of flying planes into buildings killing innocent people? This isn't the fault of the Quran but the fallen human condition justifying itself through its corruption. The Quran like the Bible remains pure at the transcendent level but is corrupted at the exoteric level for political gain. I don't see what your objection could be.

There is nothing purer for this purpose then the Quran. And according to the Quran, once the seeker accepts this, and follows God's path as outlined in the Quran, it is God Himself who becomes the Guide for the seeker. I will personally attest to this.

But who does this? Is it done by those stoning a 13 year old? There is an old Sufi expression I admire: "He who believes he is looking at the face of God is looking at the face of the Devil." Are you going to tell those that stoned the young girl to death that it wan't out of direct orders from Allah? You will be stoned as they quote the Quran to you.

The sad fact is that sacred text can be and is corrupted for the sake of secular political gain. When we see how it can also be corrupted in ourselves distorting God's plan, we also have to make it pure within us. It means admitting our own psychological corruption. It is no easy task.

 

[c0de]

@ Nick

I am perfectly willing that the Bible was corrupted by secular interests in order to produce the Spanish Inquisition. I don't find this hard to do since it makes perfect sense considering the human condition.

Why can't the quran be corrupted to produce the exoteric result of flying planes into buildings killing innocent people? This isn't the fault of the Quran but the fallen human condition justifying itself through its corruption. The Quran like the Bible remains pure at the transcendent level but is corrupted at the exoteric level for political gain. I don't see what your objection could be.

You're not understanding my point Nick. The script of the bible itself has been diluted because it was compiled centuries after the death of Jesus PBUH. This is why you think the concept of trinity is acceptable. This is also why you are stuck on these terms like "exoteric" and "esoteric"... The bible has failed to offer you something, and you must find it elsewhere. I do not suffer from this dilemma. Because the Quran, unlike the Bible, is not just transcendent on one level, but is transcendent period. The proof of this is historical. Unlike the Bible, the Quran was compiled by the men who witnessed its revelation. The bible in its present form, was complied for political convienience Nick...

If you are looking for absolute truth Nick, then read the Quran. It offers infinitely more then Weil, Schuon or any mystic guide ever could.

But who does this? Is it done by those stoning a 13 year old? There is an old Sufi expression I admire: "He who believes he is looking at the face of God is looking at the face of the Devil." Are you going to tell those that stoned the young girl to death that it wan't out of direct orders from Allah? You will be stoned as they quote the Quran to you.

Yes, I would. And if that means that I have to be stoned to death as that girl was, then so be it.

 

[Nick_A]

Hi cOde

The bible has failed to offer you something, and you must find it elsewhere. I do not suffer from this dilemma. Because the Quran, unlike the Bible, is not just transcendent on one level, but is transcendent period.

This isn't a gotcha question but what has the Quran offered you?

Perhaps we can compare what I believe the Bible has offered me and what the Quran has offered you.

 

[c0de]

Hello Nick

what has the Quran offered you?

Once a person accepts God as his one and only guide, the path you walk on, is a path carved out specifically for you, by the One who knows your most secret and hidden thoughts. These are some of the gifts that I have been given on my path, through the guidance available for all in the Quran:

A Code

One only I can understand
So that my mind may rest assured,
and the desires of the heart, withstand

A Sight

Through which I perceive the world
A light to lead the way,
And avoid the pitfalls foretold

A Protection

When He saved me from myself...
When I was about to fall,
it was He who steadied my hand

A Friendship

Which destroyed my enemy's plans...
Gave me victory in front of all,
Those in doubt, were the ones made to fall

A Pain

A chance to suffer my sins,
To learn the meaning of guilt
To repent and start again...


​

An evolution​

​

of the spirit and the mind​

​

so it remains... undefined​

 

[Nick_A]

The Bible: a book which either reads us or is worthless." CHAZAL

Even though the Bible has lost potency due to secular ignorance in its translations, there remains enough in it to inspire a quality of contemplation that allows us to be noticed from above. Normally we are not seen. Though we pride ourselves in our associative thought we are no more noticed from above than a dog or horse since our psychology is attached to the earth and thoughts of God are strictly a product of our imagination.

Rather than offering solutions, the Bible helps me to experience the problem from a perspective the Bible helps to open me to. It helps me to see the futility of either secular or religious conditioning and the necessity of conscious experience both as self knowledge and knowledge of universal laws that manifest in the world that sustain the fallen human condition.

"Religion in so far as it is a source of consolation is a hindrance to true faith; and in this sense atheism is a purification. I have to be an atheist with that part of myself which is not made for God. Among those in whom the supernatural part of themselves has not been awakened, the atheists are right and the believers wrong." Simone weil

An extraordinary insight and seemingly inconceivable for someone so young. The idea is that religion is normally seen to offer consolation and self justification to further this consolation. However God is absent from the world and the purpose of religion is to free one from the confines of the world rather than justify them through religious conflicts for example. Religious expression in the world then is actually religious devolution.

You seem to be emphasizing how to adapt to the world. In contrast my path provides the possibility of freedom from the psychological confines of the world. There is no reason for me to destroy my enemy's plans simply because it puts me on the level of the world.

My path introduces me to the experience of objective inner morality which is a quality of our essence as opposed to subjective guilt which is an attribute of our personality.that is imposed by society.

I may be wrong but you seem to be emphasizing how to REACT and the concern of my path is to become able to consciously ACT.

If Schuon is right, all this become reconciled at a quality of understanding that as of now is beyond both of us.

 

[Radunzel]

In Christianity the Trinity is a mystery. It is only a mystery because the only way to grasp the significance is by experienceing this vertical direction. It is impossible from our normal linear perspective.

All sacred texts have the purpose of inspiring the esoteric thought process rather than defining esoteric thoughts. It the experiencing the process itself that leads to freedom from literal thought that traps man to the earth and justifies the fallen human condition.

why in reference to the trinity is the word mystery used to cover the meaning intended; unintelligable

i agree as far as secularism is involved esoterics has been invaluable and interfaith wouldnt exist if it wasnt for esoteric traditions. but then why is Jesus (pbuh) so distinct from the other prophets, even if you believe he is the davidic messiah.. what makes him the son of god? allah (swt) created the souls of abraham, moses , noah, and all the prophets.. what makes jesus so different? i think creation of man from nothing at all, is far more impressive than gabriel blowng on marys sleave.. yet i have never seeen a "church of adam"

it seems to me that the trinity came from esoteric thought. and if you are to take the logical comclusion it proves itself by the holy spirit being an amalgomation of shaytan and gabriel.. which then in turn consitutes dualism within the holy spirit..

 

[c0de]

@ Nick

Good Morning

My path introduces me to the experience of objective inner morality which is a quality of our essence as opposed to subjective guilt which is an attribute of our personality.that is imposed by society.

Not only do I completely disagree, but I know this to be a very dangerous and misleading concept. You quoted me Weil, now I will quote you Merton, a Christian/Sufi mystic. Once you read these words, I hope you will reconsider your notions of "objective inner morality"

“The most dangerous man in the world is the contemplative who is guided by nobody. He trusts his own visions. He obeys the attractions of an interior voice but will not listen to other men. He identifies the will of God with anything that makes him feel, within his own heart, a big, warm, sweet interior glow. The sweeter and the warmer the feeling is the more he is convinced of his own infallibility. And if the sheer force of his own self-confidence communicates itself to other people and gives them the impression that he is really a saint, such a man can wreck a whole city or a religious order or even a nation: and the world is covered with scars that have been left in its flesh by visionaries like these.”

-Thomas Merton
Seeds of Contemplation,
New York, 1949, (p 111-112)​

*(there is nothing about my guilt which has been imposed by society, in fact, according to society's standards, I have nothing to be guilty about. Actually, according to societal standards, I should be proud of my exploits).

There is no reason for me to destroy my enemy's plans simply because it puts me on the level of the world.

By this statement, am I to assume that you think that I said that I destroyed my enemy's plans? You're still thinking from within your own paradigm, which is only natural, but ironic considering all your preaching of objectivity. You failed to recognize the obviousness of the words before you Nick. When did I say that it was I who destroyed me enemy's plans? I was powerless before their machinations. I did not even take any steps to counter them directly. Because I realized the impotency of such endeavors. It was God who destroyed them, and exposed their weaknesses.

As for your comment that your enemy's plans bring you to the level of the world, that is a separate issue altogether. You are right when you say that God can use our enemies and competitors to remind us of our mortality and impotence. However, it is also true that God can use His defense of those who ask for His help to uplift their spirits in moments of crisis. Consider the psalms of David (PBUH). Consider the infusing of faith that occurs at the moment of victory, knowing such a victory was only possible with the help of God.

By failing to see this side of the equation Nick; moreover, while trying to see it in a negative light just so you could criticize my path in favor of your own, you are only revealing a deep seated bias to not consider alternatives to your own chosen approach.

You seem to be emphasizing how to adapt to the world. In contrast my path provides the possibility of freedom from the psychological confines of the world.

The fact that you think you know what possibilities my path provides me, and what possibilities your path provides you, shows me that you do not "know" Nick.

 

[Nick_A]

why in reference to the trinity is the word mystery used to cover the meaning intended; unintelligable

i agree as far as secularism is involved esoterics has been invaluable and interfaith wouldnt exist if it wasnt for esoteric traditions. but then why is Jesus (pbuh) so distinct from the other prophets, even if you believe he is the davidic messiah.. what makes him the son of god? allah (swt) created the souls of abraham, moses , noah, and all the prophets.. what makes jesus so different? i think creation of man from nothing at all, is far more impressive than gabriel blowng on marys sleave.. yet i have never seeen a "church of adam"

it seems to me that the trinity came from esoteric thought. and if you are to take the logical comclusion it proves itself by the holy spirit being an amalgomation of shaytan and gabriel.. which then in turn consitutes dualism within the holy spirit..

Radunzel

The conception of THREE and ONE simultaneously existing is hard to understand so it is referred to as a mystery. I can grasp it intellectually but still not ready to experience it consciously within myself. The term mystery makes it easier to avoid superficial classifications and helps keep the mind open.

Christendom often suggests that Jesus is either God or the only Son of God but the Bible suggests many sons of God and Jesus refers to himself as I AM. Becoming I AM requires unifying the heart, head, and body,as ONE. Jesus is unique IMO in that he did actualize the teaching and experienced re-birth into this higher quality of being which was his origin before his volunatry descent into our level of being so as to show the way out.

The Holy Spirit reconciles dualism for man. We have a spiritual part and an animal part. The conscious part is referred to as the head and the physical animal part is referred to as the body. it is the heart that reconciles them. Our hearts are corrupt. It is through the Holy Spirit that the heart is healed and made whole and be able to reconcile the conscious with the mechanical parts of our collective being..

 

[Nick_A]

@ Nick

Good Morning



Not only do I completely disagree, but I know this to be a very dangerous and misleading concept. You quoted me Weil, now I will quote you Merton, a Christian/Sufi mystic. Once you read these words, I hope you will reconsider your notions of "objective inner morality"

“The most dangerous man in the world is the contemplative who is guided by nobody. He trusts his own visions. He obeys the attractions of an interior voice but will not listen to other men. He identifies the will of God with anything that makes him feel, within his own heart, a big, warm, sweet interior glow. The sweeter and the warmer the feeling is the more he is convinced of his own infallibility. And if the sheer force of his own self-confidence communicates itself to other people and gives them the impression that he is really a saint, such a man can wreck a whole city or a religious order or even a nation: and the world is covered with scars that have been left in its flesh by visionaries like these.”

-Thomas Merton​

Seeds of Contemplation,
New York, 1949, (p 111-112)​

*(there is nothing about my guilt which has been imposed by society, in fact, according to society's standards, I have nothing to be guilty about. Actually, according to societal standards, I should be proud of my exploits).




By this statement, am I to assume that you think that I said that I destroyed my enemy's plans? You're still thinking from within your own paradigm, which is only natural, but ironic considering all your preaching of objectivity. You failed to recognize the obviousness of the words before you Nick. When did I say that it was I who destroyed me enemy's plans? I was powerless before their machinations. I did not even take any steps to counter them directly. Because I realized the impotency of such endeavors. It was God who destroyed them, and exposed their weaknesses.

As for your comment that your enemy's plans bring you to the level of the world, that is a separate issue altogether. You are right when you say that God can use our enemies and competitors to remind us of our mortality and impotence. However, it is also true that God can use His defense of those who ask for His help to uplift their spirits in moments of crisis. Consider the psalms of David (PBUH). Consider the infusing of faith that occurs at the moment of victory, knowing such a victory was only possible with the help of God.

By failing to see this side of the equation Nick; moreover, while trying to see it in a negative light just so you could criticize my path in favor of your own, you are only revealing a deep seated bias to not consider alternatives to your own chosen approach.


The fact that you think you know what possibilities my path provides me, and what possibilities your path provides you, shows me that you do not "know" Nick.

Hi cOde

Thomas Merton is describing how we are as fallen Man. Objective inner morality is a potential for man as is consciousness. It is part of our conscious evolution. We don't have it but it is our potential. Conscience for us is external conditioning yet conscience is a potential for us as an objective inner quality that would include inner morality.

I still maintain that guilt is a conditioned emotion we are not born with but becomes a part of our personality while grief for example is an emotional quality we are born with and can be an expression of our essence without conditioning.

Because I realized the impotency of such endeavors. It was God who destroyed them, and exposed their weaknesses.

Since I don't believe God's will is done on earth, I don't believe that God destroys them. People around Jesus felt the same as you. He tried to show how it is not so but most of Christendom doesn't believe what Jesus said and prefers to think that God does these things. Jesus said however

Luke 13

1Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."

Those present believed that since they were playing the role, towers wouldn't hit them on the head. Jesus explains that it is through re-birth that one becomes free of the earth and falling towers. Not many believe him though.

The fact that you think you know what possibilities my path provides me, and what possibilities your path provides you, shows me that you do not "know" Nick.

If I knew, I would say you ARE emphasizing. I said you seem to be emphasizing. This means I'm open to clarification. Don't forget we are comparing perspectives. It seems to me as of now and from what I've read from you that you emphasize adapting to the world while my interest is freedom from its psychological domination by acquiring a conscious perspective that allows me to be a middle between the conscious higher and the mechanical functioning of the "Great Beast" or society itself.

 

[c0de]

Hi Nick,

Thomas Merton is describing how we are as fallen Man.

No, not really. In that passage he is warning against man's attempt at defining an "objective inner morality" for himself... It is a telling feature of such a man that he will reject all forms of guilt, obviously because he will always define a morality which is (ironically) completely subjective.

If I knew, I would say you ARE emphasizing. I said you seem to be emphasizing.

Come now Nick, lets not play around with words. You implied it. The important thing is that your thoughts took you in that direction.

It seems to me as of now and from what I've read from you that you emphasize adapting to the world

Once again, I sense the same condescending attitude. While I disagree with your interpretation of my words, you of course are free to hold any opinion you wish. But it is just that, your subjective opinion.

while my interest is freedom from its psychological domination by acquiring a conscious perspective that allows me to be a middle between the conscious higher and the mechanical functioning of the "Great Beast" or society itself.

... I honestly have not seen any evidence of this. But who am I judge?









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To be honest, it is clear to me now that our two perspectives are world's apart. As soon as I read this comment of yours, this much was clear to me

Since I don't believe God's will is done on earth, I don't believe that God destroys them. People around Jesus felt the same as you.

Further on you assert that Jesus PBUH was actually in agreement with you. Maybe you believe that because you believe that Jesus PBUH died at the cross. Maybe you believe that the only way to reconcile this with God's power is to not allow God to exercise His will in this plane of existence. Maybe you think this is God's plan. Well, Muslims do not believe that Jesus PBUH lost the battle at the cross, since we do not believe that Jesus PBUH died like that. In the Quran, Jesus PBUH is rescued from the plans made against him by God...

 

[Nick_A]

Hi cOde

Have I given you any gray hairs yet? Merton wrote

“The most dangerous man in the world is the contemplative who is guided by nobody. He trusts his own visions.

Man in the world is the exoteric level. Man not of the world that has moved along the esoteric level in a balanced fashion is a higher quality of being and aware of his limitations and tendency towards self deception. The actualized man Merton is referring to I would know as demonic.

Once again, I sense the same condescending attitude. While I disagree with your interpretation of my words, you of course are free to hold any opinion you wish. But it is just that, your subjective opinion.

What is condescending about it. I'm just trying to understand your beliefs. If you don't emphasize adapting to the world, what are you emphasizing?

Further on you assert that Jesus PBUH was actually in agreement with you. Maybe you believe that because you believe that Jesus PBUH died at the cross. Maybe you believe that the only way to reconcile this with God's power is to not allow God to exercise His will in this plane of existence. Maybe you think this is God's plan. Well, Muslims do not believe that Jesus PBUH lost the battle at the cross, since we do not believe that Jesus PBUH died like that. In the Quran, Jesus PBUH is rescued from the plans made against him by God...

How then do you interpret Luke 13? Does it suggest God hitting people with towers or God having nothing to do with it?

God's will in the form of universal laws is the nature of existence. Everything is connected. If God were to violate his own laws, the universe would fall apart since everything is connected.

Jesus didn't lose a battle at the cross since he was never in one. He descended here in order to die on the cross to achieve re-birth and open the path of conscious evolution that leads to what all the great traditions know as the "Way."

It seems to me that defining what Muslims believe is difficult as defining what Christians believe since both Christianity and Islam exist along the vertical scale of being that connects the exoteric level with the transcendent reality or goal of the teaching.

You may believe one thing while Schuon, an Islamic scholar, believes another. To understand what a Muslim or Christian believes, it is necessary to agree upon if we are referring to the exoteric, esoteric, or transcendent level of the teaching. Without this distinction, explaining what a Muslim believes is purely subjective.

 

[c0de]

@ Nick

Man in the world is the exoteric level. Man not of the world that has moved along the esoteric level in a balanced fashion is a higher quality of being and aware of his limitations and tendency towards self deception. The actualized man Merton is referring to I would know as demonic.

Ah but you forget... it is precisely the demonic man who believes he has moved past the exoteric level. That is the significance of the passage.

If you don't emphasize adapting to the world, what are you emphasizing?

Who says I was emphasizing anything? I have not explained myself to you in any detail for a very simple reason: It is you who started trying to convince me of the advantages of your path, remember? Your the one who has been emphasizing its percieved advantages thus far.

How then do you interpret Luke 13?

To use the argument of bad things happening to good people, and say that this is evidence that God's will is not applicable to this realm is, is not a good enough argument for me Nick.

You already know where I stand on the issue, as you were present on the Determinism vs Free Will thread. You know my views are very divergent from the mainstream here to begin with.

Have I given you any gray hairs yet?

No worries

 

[Nick_A]

Hi cOde

Ah but you forget... it is precisely the demonic man who believes he has moved past the exoteric level. That is the significance of the passage.

The "new man" in Christianity has transcended the exoteric level or the "old man"

Thee are several references to the New man. here is one for example:

Ephesians 2:

11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. 19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

Do you really think that Thomas Merton denies the New Man as the aim of Christianity and believes Man has no potential future then the dust to dust the exoteric level offers?

Who says I was emphasizing anything? I have not explained myself to you in any detail for a very simple reason: It is you who started trying to convince me of the advantages of your path, remember? Your the one who has been emphasizing its percieved advantages thus far.

It is not a matter of convincing but rather discussing. I gave an example from an Islamic scholar of this vertical direction I believe to be essential for Christianity and he believes it is essential to all the paths initiating with a conscious source. I ask your opinion of it and if it resonates with you at all. By all means, state your impressions.
I know that the Sufis are open to this idea of different levels of the path and of Man. You follow Islam so I'm interested if you could be open to the idea of relativity of being that spans the quality of the exoteric and transcendent levels of reality or reject it from what you've been taught. Nothing suspicious here I assure you.

No gray hairs yet? Give me time. .

 

[c0de]

Hey Nick

The "new man" in Christianity has transcended the exoteric level or the "old man"
Thee are several references to the New man. here is one for example:
Ephesians 2:

Do you really think that Thomas Merton denies the New Man as the aim of Christianity and believes Man has no potential future then the dust to dust the exoteric level offers?

Remember that the "demonic" man of Merton is just one version of the "old man" you are referring to. The only difference being the fact that the demonic man has come to believe in his own infallibility, where as the "old man" has no such delusions of grandeur. The assumption you are making is that the "new man" of Christianity believes in an "inner objective morality"... This is simply not true. This is even clear from the words of the Bible that you yourself quoted: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— " Nothing about an objective inner morality here, in fact, the exact opposite.

Also, to go further, the idea of "inner objective morality" is itself is a fallacy. Consider the classic Kantian arguments against this idea. Man can never realize "objective inner morality" because such an idea would be transcendent, and thus, by definition, out the grasp of the mind of man.

My argument is that only God is aware of "objective morality" because only His perspective is objective. Why? Because only He has the authority to define objectivity. For example: Jesus PBUH only knew what morality was, because God told him what it was. Not because Jesus PBUH somehow discovered it himself through some innate reasoning abilities. Read on:

I know that the Sufis are open to this idea of different levels of the path and of Man. You follow Islam so I'm interested if you could be open to the idea of relativity of being that spans the quality of the exoteric and transcendent levels of reality or reject it from what you've been taught. Nothing suspicious here I assure you.

My contention is not with the idea that transcendent levels of reality exist. Abraham PBUH "arrived" at the conclusion that there is One God, through applying basic logic and reason (forget for a moment that I believe that even this level of freedom must be taken in a deterministic world view). But the question is this: Can it be stated that he or any other human being has ever achieved a state of "objective inner morality" through use of some innate logic or reasoning ability? Well, no. Because actual morality, is only moral in relation to God's definition of it. The commandment: Thou Shalt Not Steal... is only "moral" because God commanded it so. Not because of any objective value judgment on the act of stealing that man can make. Atheists believe such truth-statements can be reasoned by man himself. But I believe this is not possible because real life makes issuing these value-judgments complicated.

For Example: What if you are starving? Is it ok to steal then? Kant would have said no... but only because he was trying to create a system equal to a divinely inspired one. Basically, imitating the divine lack of compromise. Without holding only God's system as truly "objective" man's "objective inner morality" will always lead him astray, simply because of the subjectivity of his own desperation which will always skew his judgment. Hence, result in an ends justify the means approach, or a compromise with morality out of necessity. But even that is not the problem, the problem is the slipperiness of the slope on which man now stands, if such methods apply.

My argument is that man stands in need for his morality to be defined for him. And the only source of truly objective information, in relation to God's judgment, is God's own revelation. And since this source is today available in its purest form only in the Quran, therefore one should make it the basis for all journeys on the path of progress. This is why, I reject the concept of trinity, because it is rejected in the Quran, plain and simple.

It is not a matter of convincing but rather discussing. I gave an example from an Islamic scholar of this vertical direction I believe to be essential for Christianity and he believes it is essential to all the paths initiating with a conscious source. I ask your opinion of it and if it resonates with you at all. By all means, state your impressions.

I believe my words above state my impressions on this issue as well.

No gray hairs yet? Give me time. .

Take all the time you need