N
Nick_A
Guest
Hi cOde
The teachings began as conscious teachings but gradually devolved into the world as mechanical secular exoteric expressions of our fallen human nature. I agree. But I also believe it is the same with Islam.
At the exoteric level Islam has the same contradictions and hypocrisy as Christendom. It must since this hypocrisy is an expression of the human condition itself. You were discussing the rape thread and this practice of stoning. It is a perverted exoteric expression to preserve societal power and control and has nothing to do with the transcendent origin of the Quran. Jesus said that let he who is without sin cast the first stone. I'm quite sure that all those relishing in the stoning were not without sin and suspect a similar warning is written someplace in the Quran.
As for question 1, the answer can be determined by a simple inquiry: Take Hinduism and Islam. In Hinduism, the idea that God can be divided and sub divided and united with his creation through these lower deities, and that we can access God through these deities, is a concept completely contradictory to Islam. Just because there is a supreme deity at the top, does not mean there is agreement between the two religions.
But suppose you are expressing your own exoteric appreciation of the Quran? Exoteric means what you've learned rather than inwardly experienced. Consider this excerpt from the article.
The suggestion here is that these paths must be different at the exoteric level and only begin to join at a much higher place along the vertical direction and the esoteric level of each religion. So what you are saying is normal for the exoteric level in yourself. The question is if it may change and reflect the SPIRIT of the Quran if you entered the esoteric level of the teaching? It is hard for followers of any of the great traditions to accept that their literal appreciation and faith is just an introduction to the spirit of the teaching itself. It is ego deflating but I believe it to be an essential truth that the sincere seeker must face. Socrates said he knew nothing and it was why the Oracle considered him wise. Perhaps it is something all believers have to face before they can begin to move from the exoteric into the esoteric level of their path and experience the Spirit of it.
I distinguish between blind faith and conscious faith. blind faith is a normal part of the exoteric level while conscious faith is a developing human attribute of one who has made the efforts necessary for the esoteric level. Even the disciples didn't have conscious faith which is why they asked Jesus to increase their faith.
The beginnings of conscious faith is illustrated in the Bible through Jesus meeting with the Centurion:
Luke 7:
Is walking a path, really walking away from another? It maybe so at the exoteric level. I agree that on the exoteric level with the goal of transcendence via the esoteric, it is not good to mix things. This is why secular interfaith cannot lead anywhere because it picks and chooses what is defines as worth believing. it doesn't realize that certain "contradictions' are put into each faith for the sake of forcing the seeker to confront themselves. and the truth of their being. Not going through this revealing experience of self knowledge just makes a teaching impotent in its transcendent goal and lost in feel good thoughts.
However, this really isn't walking away from another teaching but rather realizing taht we are all in the same boat of self deception and the similarities will become evident once we are not dominated psychologically by the conditioned exoteric level in ourselves.
The trouble is that sincere efforts to "know thyself" reveals how far we are from it both at our personal level and as part of the societal level. The human condition is so that we believe one moment and not the next. Peter was in tears when he experienced how easily he denied Jesus. It is something we must experience. We are capable of both the height of compassion and the most horrid destruction. Which are we? We are both.
In the Bible "Christ" refers to the "law" while Jesus refers to the "good" of the law. The purpose of the law is to create the good. When taken together as Jesus Christ it refers to the unification of the good with the law. Jesus became necessary because human nature became so corrupt that the law could no longer serve its purpose and became a tool of societal manipulation and power.
It seems to me that it is the same with the Quran. It becomes abused natural for the corrupt human ego. The abuses of both the Bible and Quran reveal the truth of the human condition to me and the limitations of the exoteric level. I was taught at the exoteric level in schools and churches. I've begun to feel the value of the esoteric level by direct experience with the corruption of the exoteric level that makes it meaningless as far as my relationship to higher consciousness. I admit my ignorance and become open to help from above for the sake of freedom from exoteric hypocrisy both in myself and in the world. From what you've written, it doesn't seem to contradict the spirit of the Quran..
It is an established fact that the Quran indicates that prophets were sent to every nation. So it is very possible that a man like Buddah or Zoroaster etc. were actually the prophets of God who transmitted the unity of God to their people. But their teachings, over time, became diluted and corrupted. This obviously a Islamicly biased view, but that is the view of the Quran.
The teachings began as conscious teachings but gradually devolved into the world as mechanical secular exoteric expressions of our fallen human nature. I agree. But I also believe it is the same with Islam.
At the exoteric level Islam has the same contradictions and hypocrisy as Christendom. It must since this hypocrisy is an expression of the human condition itself. You were discussing the rape thread and this practice of stoning. It is a perverted exoteric expression to preserve societal power and control and has nothing to do with the transcendent origin of the Quran. Jesus said that let he who is without sin cast the first stone. I'm quite sure that all those relishing in the stoning were not without sin and suspect a similar warning is written someplace in the Quran.
As for question 1, the answer can be determined by a simple inquiry: Take Hinduism and Islam. In Hinduism, the idea that God can be divided and sub divided and united with his creation through these lower deities, and that we can access God through these deities, is a concept completely contradictory to Islam. Just because there is a supreme deity at the top, does not mean there is agreement between the two religions.
But suppose you are expressing your own exoteric appreciation of the Quran? Exoteric means what you've learned rather than inwardly experienced. Consider this excerpt from the article.
He insists that the unity of the different religions is not only unrealizable on the external level, that of the forms themselves, but ought not to be realized at that level even were this possible, for in that case the revealed forms would be deprived of their sufficient reason. The very fact that they are revealed, he claims, “shows that they are willed by the Divine Word.” He uses the word “transcendent” in the title because it means that the unity of the religious forms must be realized in a purely inward and spiritual way and without prejudice to any particular form. “The antagonisms between these forms no more affect the one universal Truth than the antagonisms between opposing colors affect the transmission of the one uncolored light."
The suggestion here is that these paths must be different at the exoteric level and only begin to join at a much higher place along the vertical direction and the esoteric level of each religion. So what you are saying is normal for the exoteric level in yourself. The question is if it may change and reflect the SPIRIT of the Quran if you entered the esoteric level of the teaching? It is hard for followers of any of the great traditions to accept that their literal appreciation and faith is just an introduction to the spirit of the teaching itself. It is ego deflating but I believe it to be an essential truth that the sincere seeker must face. Socrates said he knew nothing and it was why the Oracle considered him wise. Perhaps it is something all believers have to face before they can begin to move from the exoteric into the esoteric level of their path and experience the Spirit of it.
As for the second question, the reason why I consider the Quran to be the best religion, and the best model that God has bestowed upon humanity, is simply because of blind faith. Remember Nick, when you begin to walk a path, you are by definition walking away from others. When you are open to one, you are closed to another. This is just the way it is. I can not consider any other model as being equal to Islam. That is part of my faith.
I distinguish between blind faith and conscious faith. blind faith is a normal part of the exoteric level while conscious faith is a developing human attribute of one who has made the efforts necessary for the esoteric level. Even the disciples didn't have conscious faith which is why they asked Jesus to increase their faith.
The beginnings of conscious faith is illustrated in the Bible through Jesus meeting with the Centurion:
Luke 7:
The text has many inner psychological meanings but at the surface the faith of the Centurion is valued because he has vertical awareness. He sees that he is a "middle" He is nothing compared to what is above him and yet has authority over what is below. He receives from above and gives to below. It can only be sustained consciously but this vertical faith or "presence" is what leads to freedom from attachment to the earth. Our faith is linear in that we have faith IN something or someone in relation to our conditioning. One of my goals is consciously developing more "presence" which connects the higher and lower in me and an attribute referred to by Jesus as "faith."1When Jesus had finished saying all this in the hearing of the people, he entered Capernaum. 2There a centurion's servant, whom his master valued highly, was sick and about to die. 3The centurion heard of Jesus and sent some elders of the Jews to him, asking him to come and heal his servant. 4When they came to Jesus, they pleaded earnestly with him, "This man deserves to have you do this, 5because he loves our nation and has built our synagogue." 6So Jesus went with them.
He was not far from the house when the centurion sent friends to say to him: "Lord, don't trouble yourself, for I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. 7That is why I did not even consider myself worthy to come to you. But say the word, and my servant will be healed. 8For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it." 9When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd following him, he said, "I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel." 10Then the men who had been sent returned to the house and found the servant well.
Is walking a path, really walking away from another? It maybe so at the exoteric level. I agree that on the exoteric level with the goal of transcendence via the esoteric, it is not good to mix things. This is why secular interfaith cannot lead anywhere because it picks and chooses what is defines as worth believing. it doesn't realize that certain "contradictions' are put into each faith for the sake of forcing the seeker to confront themselves. and the truth of their being. Not going through this revealing experience of self knowledge just makes a teaching impotent in its transcendent goal and lost in feel good thoughts.
However, this really isn't walking away from another teaching but rather realizing taht we are all in the same boat of self deception and the similarities will become evident once we are not dominated psychologically by the conditioned exoteric level in ourselves.
Lastly, the religion of Islam (proper) is not the only path towards God. The Quran makes it very clear that God guides believers... not just Muslims. Anyone who believes in the unity of God and does good, is granted access. That is the spirit of Islam. As long as you believe in the unity of God, and believe in doing good, you are following the spirit of religion that God ordered man to follow.
The trouble is that sincere efforts to "know thyself" reveals how far we are from it both at our personal level and as part of the societal level. The human condition is so that we believe one moment and not the next. Peter was in tears when he experienced how easily he denied Jesus. It is something we must experience. We are capable of both the height of compassion and the most horrid destruction. Which are we? We are both.
In the Bible "Christ" refers to the "law" while Jesus refers to the "good" of the law. The purpose of the law is to create the good. When taken together as Jesus Christ it refers to the unification of the good with the law. Jesus became necessary because human nature became so corrupt that the law could no longer serve its purpose and became a tool of societal manipulation and power.
It seems to me that it is the same with the Quran. It becomes abused natural for the corrupt human ego. The abuses of both the Bible and Quran reveal the truth of the human condition to me and the limitations of the exoteric level. I was taught at the exoteric level in schools and churches. I've begun to feel the value of the esoteric level by direct experience with the corruption of the exoteric level that makes it meaningless as far as my relationship to higher consciousness. I admit my ignorance and become open to help from above for the sake of freedom from exoteric hypocrisy both in myself and in the world. From what you've written, it doesn't seem to contradict the spirit of the Quran..