Homosexuality

[Dream]

this verse refers to the israelites not observing G!D's Law, the Torah - which, according to romans 16, is not applicable here"

I tried to keep this short and threw lots of stuff away, but this question has caused me to do a lot of thinking and put a lot of things into better mental order. It is appreciated. Reworded your question could be "Why if 'not under law but under grace' would this apply to non Hebraic people?" I suggested that individuals can individually have suffer divine afflictions and signs if the community is not upholding its responsibilities. I think this understanding is nothing new, which I say because of two verses that came up in a situation where some rich Christians were starving some poor Christians: "For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the L-rd's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep."(I Corinthians 11:29-30) If the members of the body are 'not discerning the L-rd's body' then it seems we can fall under weakness and sickness, and this sounds similar to how the judgments of Deuteronomy 28 are administered and may work on the same principle.

In John 'The Son' is represented as a dove that descended and remained, (a clear reference to the third dove that Noah sent out of the Ark). That the dove remained is the sign of Immanuel that John the Baptist was waiting for (Immanuel translates as 'G!d with us'). It meant that the Spirit would no longer visit earth and return to the Father but would remain with us. I place a lot of importance upon the sign of Immanuel and think it is the essence of Christianity and is what is meant by the words 'Christ has come in the flesh'.(I John 4:2) In Christian works Jesus was a sign of the destruction of the priesthood, but also the sign of Immanuel and renewal. Luke 2:36 a prophet named Simeon said "Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against" Christianity makes many promises about Jesus: but among these are that he would bring 'many sons to glory'(Heb 2:10), and that he was 'the first of many brothers'. Christians are 'not under Law but under Grace', but nevertheless must respect Christ in each other, submitting to each other. That is our Law, although I haven't worked out the details.

Ephesians 5:20-21 always and for everything giving thanks in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God the Father. Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ.

Romans 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.

For the sake of 'discerning the body' I suggest that 'The Son' is not literally a man (although Jesus is), but 'the Son' refers to the Glory of G!d in his people who are as one person. They are one person, because every one of them is required for G!d to be fully glorified in them. This is what Christians are supposed to recognize when they eat the bread and drink the wine, but more importantly they are to recognize it by their actions. That is 'Worshipping in Spirit and in Truth'. In Scripture the Son of G!d, is called 'Israel'. Passages which refer to Jesus as the Son of G!d implicitly work with this definition, since he is a member of Israel, and those passages about him often speak about all of us. The Son is an annointing that rests upon the people and is called 'Christ', which translates as 'Anointed'. The Son is and was the cause of the Glory seen in Israel (not the real-estate but the people). After I've said all of this it shouldn't surprise you, that I see you as a member of Christ. I am person who thinks that the 'Gospel' has already been preached and that the power of Immanuel is already at work according to a huge and inescapeable plan, but don't assume all people calling themselves 'Christians' are of the same mind on this. My opinion is that many are in danger of not 'discerning the body' therefore bringing trouble upon us all until some future time when the huge and inescapeable plan is complete.

Though you may disagree on some of the above, would you comment about something else in John 1? John 1:18 connects the 'Son' with the 'Bosom of the Father' and I wonder if it is using imagery of the Breastplate of 12 stones (and possibly Urim & Thummim). I wonder if these possibly represent glory of Israel on the earth and could be alluded to by "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." My first impulse is that this 'Bosom' is talking about the ark before Noah releases the dove, but the phrases 'Bosom of Abraham' and 'Book of Life' seem to connect for me. I think having your 'Name written in the book of life' probably refers to keeping Torah as well as being 'Hidden in the bosom of Abraham'? So should I be seeing the 12 stones when it says "begotten Son which is in the bosom of the Father?"

 

[greymare]

... if it hadn't been for Scooby Doo and those kids! (sorry, couldn't help myself)

Chuckle, I get it..
I was thinking the same thing,

 

[Dream]

... if it hadn't been for Scooby Doo and those kids! (sorry, couldn't help myself)

Scooby Snack!

Chuckle, I get it..
I was thinking the same thing,

The moment I set foot in these forums I've been running scared, and it is like when Scoobie finds his clues mainly because he's not sitting on his duff! I feel hope. Does anybody know of any books about a 'distributed' Son ? From a topic that seemed unrelated I'm starting to understand where the Jewish-Christian division started -- ! (I wonder if it is where the Quakers got their idea of the inner light?) This thread has turned out to be the most profitable of every one I've been in.

 

[BlaznFattyz]

This creation of Adam and Eve to be with each other; become one and be fruitful was a directly spoken commandment and a design of Gods given to man obviously before the written laws were given to Moses for a specific group of people. Nevertheless, Christians do not follow written laws of the torah for fear of death or not being worthy or for the acceptance of a group, because we already know we cannot follow them with our sinful nature. We cannot follow every single one of God's perfect and holy laws, for if we break one, then we are guilty of breaking them all. They were not created to make us not need God and we find holiness and righteousness on account of ourselves, but to show us that we need God for without Him we can do nothing. So we have our Lord to reconcile us back to God through grace as our high priest and Saviour, because God does not want us to be condemned but to have eternal life so he provided a Lamb. Christians individually follow God commandments out of love for God because He loved us first, and likewise we are to love each other as God loves us. Out of this love which is manifested in grace by his Son springs forth laws written in our hearts by the Spirit which speaks directly to us. If we love God first and foremost and ask for his help and his forgiveness, then out of this faith in His Son, whom He has sent, springs forth obedience to what the Spirit of God has spoken to us. Out of this love springs forth our wanting to please God and not grieve the Spirit. If we love God, we humble ourselves, love each other, forgive each other, help each other, spread the gospel so all might be saved, and very important to this conversation, we fight against willfully being disobedient to God and continue sinning. Either ignoring God altogether or letting him in but keeping that secret door locked from God, not wanting him to enter to work on that hidden sin in our lives though the Spirit is all a matter of what you love more. And in this case fleshly desires that go against that which God has created.

 

[Dream]

Christians do not follow written laws of the torah for fear of death or not being worthy or for the acceptance of a group, because we already know we cannot follow them with our sinful nature. We cannot follow every single one of God's perfect and holy laws, for if we break one, then we are guilty of breaking them all.

I remember Dondi brought this up in the other 'Christian Objection to Homosexuality' thread and someone brought up Deuteronomy 30:11, which seems to say that the Mosaic laws are not impossible to obey in their totality. There is some wiggle room, too, as the Christian passage in James actually is talking about what we say and how its our speech that is so hard to control. James didn't say we all break the Law but that we all make mistakes in relation to what we say. What if the two are reconcileable on that basis? Perhaps I'm forgetting another verse somewhere.

If James says "if any one makes no mistakes in what he says he is a perfect man able to perfectly control his body..." This does not necessarily make keeping the Law impossible for a person. Logically the contrapositive of any true statement must be true, and the contrapositive of James' statement is "if anyone is a perfect man and able to control himself perfectly, he will not make mistakes in what he says." That is certainly true, however it still doesn't mean a person cannot make mistakes in what he says and still keep the Law. I don't remember anything in the Mosiac Law about perfect speech.

Deuteronomy 30
11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

James 3:1 Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, for you know that we who teach shall be judged with greater strictness. 2 For we all make many mistakes, and if any one makes no mistakes in what he says he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body also. 3 If we put bits into the mouths of horses that they may obey us, we guide their whole bodies.
4 Look at the ships also; though they are so great and are driven by strong winds, they are guided by a very small rudder wherever the will of the pilot directs. 5 So the tongue is a little member and boasts of great things. How great a forest is set ablaze by a small fire!
.

Respectfully yours

 

[Pico]

Ok, I didn't read any post here cuz i'm tired, but i'll lay it out for you concisely. Jesus (the Creator of everything including man and woman) said, when asked about divorce (which has everything to do with marriage) in Mark 10:6-9: "at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.' For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

There is no grey area. God made man to be with woman. 1 man and 1 woman. However, sin totally screwed everything up (death itself was not apart of God's original design), homosexuality came after mankind's fall into sin.

 

[wil]

Ok, I didn't read any post here cuz i'm tired, but i'll lay it out for you concisely. Jesus (the Creator of everything including man and woman) said, when asked about divorce (which has everything to do with marriage) in Mark 10:6-9: "at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.' For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

There is no grey area. God made man to be with woman. 1 man and 1 woman. However, sin totally screwed everything up (death itself was not apart of God's original design), homosexuality came after mankind's fall into sin.

Now I didn't read what you wrote but let me tell you...

heehee.

Okee dokee, man fell into sin if you go for the whole story prior to anyone being married...in one version the two didn't become one flesh but the one flesh became two (removal of the rib) So whilst Adam was dallying with beastiality (trying every animal attempting to find a helpmeet) prior to Eve being created (ah a suitable helpmeet) He was actually searching without for something that was always within...just like we do regularly today!

Now there is a note that early manuscripts don't have 'united as wife' something man added later to the original authors writing. Bet beyond that your quote had nothing to do with homosexuality but the question of divorce, and divorce being a sin as hateful as homosexuality I suppose, and then it goes onto to say if we remarry we are committing adultery...punishable by death/stoning if you want to stick to the law. So since this one doesn't have anything to do with homosexuality, pick up your rocks and head out for those divorced folks first...when you are done reaping the vengence of the lord on them as decreed come on back and let's talk, no grey area here, just to lay it out concisely for you.

 

[Dream]

Ok, I didn't read any post here cuz i'm tired, but i'll lay it out for you concisely. Jesus (the Creator of everything including man and woman) said, when asked about divorce (which has everything to do with marriage) in Mark 10:6-9: "at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.' For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

There is no grey area. God made man to be with woman. 1 man and 1 woman. However, sin totally screwed everything up (death itself was not apart of God's original design), homosexuality came after mankind's fall into sin.

I'd like to reply to this as well. I appreciate you posting as not many people are attracted to this this topic and also your honesty about not having read the thread. You make a true observation that there is no 'Steve' in Genesis 1 (at least not after Eve is created).

The main thing Scripture emphasizes about marriage is that a man leaves his parents, which negatively affects them, and clings to his wife instead. The two are made one flesh for the purpose of rearing 'righteous seed'.(Malachi 2:14) It is therefore improper for an Israelite man or woman to marry a non-Isrealite, since he robs Israel by doing so. That is why it was a mistake for the Israelites living in Babylon to marry non-Israelite wives. These Israelites, Ezra records, were required by God to divorce their foreign wives for the sake of rearing 'righteous seed'. Ezra 10:44 "All these had married foreign women, and they put them away with their children." This is also why usually Jews only marry those within the Jewish tradition or of Jewish heritage.

As for there being no grey area: yes there is. The grey area is what lies between what you say and what actually is. Let us assume that you claim to be Christian. Does that mean you are Jewish or does it mean something else to you? Perhaps you claim to be of Israel, yet you might not keep any festivals, rituals, or even the weekly Sabbath rest. Kosher laws? No. What is it, do you think, that governs your life and elevates you above the rest of society? Are you saying it is the rules that you live by? Then why not get circumcised and follow through with the rest of your commitments? The Jewish way is to live by enlightened Mosaic Laws by which to show the grace of God. The Christian way is to live by the grace of God, without laws and on principles alone. The whole concept of Christianity assumes that principles, with the presence of the poured-out Spirit, are better than Laws. Am I overlooking something?

 

[Pico]

As for there being no grey area: yes there is. The grey area is what lies between what you say and what actually is. Let us assume that you claim to be Christian. Does that mean you are Jewish or does it mean something else to you? Perhaps you claim to be of Israel, yet you might not keep any festivals, rituals, or even the weekly Sabbath rest. Kosher laws? No. What is it, do you think, that governs your life and elevates you above the rest of society? Are you saying it is the rules that you live by? Then why not get circumcised and follow through with the rest of your commitments? The Jewish way is to live by enlightened Mosaic Laws by which to show the grace of God. The Christian way is to live by the grace of God, without laws and on principles alone. The whole concept of Christianity assumes that principles, with the presence of the poured-out Spirit, are better than Laws. Am I overlooking something?

The gray area you are speaking of is a different context. There is no gray area about homosexuality. It's a sin (says it in both the new and old testament). Man was made to be with a woman, and vice versa.

One thing that it seems you are curious about is that Christianity is not about us. It's not about what we do for God. It's about what God did for us when He died for our sins to make us right with Him. He did for us what we could not do for ourselves (the old testament laws were designed to show us and point to Christ). Now God lives in us through His Spirit and He works in us to make us into the people we were meant to be.

In a way you could say that the principles are more important than the Law. The principles are the same but when we accept God's gift of forgiveness we become "crucified with Christ" and are "dead to the law."

 

[bob x]

God made man to be with woman.

He didn't make me that way.

 

[Dream]

The gray area you are speaking of is a different context. There is no gray area about homosexuality. It's a sin (says it in both the new and old testament). Man was made to be with a woman, and vice versa.

What actions should be taken by the Christian community when such sins become apparent? What should be the reaction to a 'Homosexual Agenda' and what has it been? Let us say non-hetero sex is sin and go ahead and throw divorce into the mix. You're making the point that we musn't approve of such sins. Ok, so sin is bad. I'll agree in order to point out the greater sin to avoid -- which is the real topic of the opening post.

Sometime after WWII there was a change in American culture, along with a great new frequency of divorces and public revelations of other sexual rearrangements. Here in the US, the main thing that was done for a long time to help sexual sinners was to ostracize each sexual sinner from society. The idea was that terror and punishment would create a fear that would prevent sin, but after dramatic increases in the number of divorces (50%) etc., it became apparent that ostricizing did not really help things. Eventually we stopped ostracizing, and shifted back to just outlawing. As a stop-gap measure, Church pastors, priests, or small appointed councils now try to caringly pry into personal matters, like the circumstances of each person's divorce or marriage. That way they can give the 'best' advice possible and perhaps help people reform! (Gay persons are advised to have regular visits with a councelor, overseer, or discipler.) It is hoped this will 'Save' as many marriages as possible and snatch wayward souls from the fire. Does that sound like a fairly good summary? It is a good summary, but it by no means good. Managing membership, judging, prying, articulating, inspecting, illegalizing: These clumsy arrangements are by no means better than Mosaic Law, but are instead horrific expressions of pride in bureaucracy. Are we under Law or under Grace? In-between is a bad place.

 

[17th Angel]

I see it as they are just trying to help? They have a belife in god... And memebers/whaterever of their church/club/team/unit/society whatever... Have made a sworn oath til death do us part.. If you are in a marriage, you think it isn't right to try and stay true to one's word? Make some effort and make something you have -commited- to, to work? When I say those words this coming November 7th I mean them..... It seems marriage is treated very loosley now, that is a shame...

In respect to divorce because one partner is a gay... I hear many people say gay isn't a choice you're born like it... So, why comit to something and turn back on your word if you know full well it won't work, your not ready, your not suited... And so on. Unless somewhere down the line you have made this choice to turn gay, but, if you are born with it, Marrying someone of the opposite sex is heading for disaster I guess...

 

[bob x]

So, why comit to something and turn back on your word if you know full well it won't work

These are people who were told being gay isn't real, you'll grow out of it, you just need a woman... and they find out no matter how hard they try that feelings don't change. It is, of course, horribly unfair to the women. I think in the next generation this will happen much less often.

 

[Dream]

Yes, we were just trying to help. We were taught all about sin and that it was bad, that marriage was forever, as well as some other absolutes. I don't intend to demean people, but policies I'll fight. Loads of Christian girls are scared silly about getting married, because they think they're responsible to x-ray the guy's heart first - impossible. Its impossible to truly know someone before the fact! They feel that way because if something goes wrong in the marriage -- its them that gets shamed in society. Honestly, divorce was given for just such a reason. A divorced person shouldn't be cut off from fellowship when they need it most! That's double jeapardy! When someone in a marriage is cruel and churlish, it is perhaps time to consider divorce in order to prevent cruelty. Shame shouldn't even come into it. Common sense affirms this, and I question claims that Jesus disagreed. Did you know that in the Mosaic Law, if you slander a woman you're required to support her financially for life? Yet our church councils, which claim to work by the spirit of Grace and Truth, shame them publicly and call it justice.

Now the same people and same institutions making these same strange destructive policies want me to believe that they are rightly handling the topic of homosexuality by boycotting Disneyworld and McDonalds? Give me a break!!!!

 

[Bandit]

In respect to divorce because one partner is a gay... I hear many people say gay isn't a choice you're born like it... So, why comit to something and turn back on your word if you know full well it won't work, your not ready, your not suited... And so on. Unless somewhere down the line you have made this choice to turn gay, but, if you are born with it, Marrying someone of the opposite sex is heading for disaster I guess...

it is a disaster. they end up marrying-having kids then divorce as one of them is cheating with the same gender because they cannot stand the opposite sex. it only happened because of living in fear of religious right wingers threats & punishments. That is the only reason I can think of because preachers & priests are busted all the time & then they say the devil made them do it.

The only problem with it being a choice is that suggests straight folks and everyone made a choice at some point to be either gay or straight and that is not true from where I am standing. It implies that everyone was born straight & then chose to be gay (this is a problem theory). Not once did I ever look at the same gender in an intimate way so it was simply not possible for me to choose to be straight or choose to be gay. I want a woman. I want my wife. It just is.


Then you have another problem with the right wingers telling people that gay people can switch back if they want & be straight. That implies that all straight people can switch to being gay at some point because after all, the gay people used to be straight. Um, that is well....kind of implies that all straight people could be gay if they choose instead of choosing to be straight.

That is a very stupid theory but is in fact what most religious extremists believe. I think it stems from phobia or hate more than reality or religion.

 

[wil]

it is a disaster. they end up marrying-having kids then divorce as one of them is cheating with the same gender because they cannot stand the opposite sex. it only happened because of living in fear of religious right wingers threats & punishments.

I know more than one relationship that is not a disaster. A couple of guys in their sixites and seventies now...I'm sure there were issues when it was all in the mix, but now they get along with their ex's, they count their grandchildren together, look forward to the great grandchildren, have wonderful family holidays...

so funny how we go on about sin...but not about forgiveness.

Yes I pick and choose scripture, just like the others. I pick forgiveness, others can stick with Leviticus.

I still wonder why we quote Jesus section on Divorce to lambast gays, no comment there, Pico? And have we bought that truckload of stone yet?

 

[Bandit]

I know more than one relationship that is not a disaster. A couple of guys in their sixites and seventies now...I'm sure there were issues when it was all in the mix, but now they get along with their ex's, they count their grandchildren together, look forward to the great grandchildren, have wonderful family holidays...

so funny how we go on about sin...but not about forgiveness.

Yes I pick and choose scripture, just like the others. I pick forgiveness, others can stick with Leviticus.

I still wonder why we quote Jesus section on Divorce to lambast gays, no comment there, Pico? And have we bought that truckload of stone yet?

No stones here for that...I was thinking tying them all to the bumper of my truck & dragging them for miles

Oh I understand. iT is a mess at first but when the dust settles and all the feelings relax and people move forward then it gets better for everyone but when it first comes out...people are very full of vinegar & bitterness. I heard a gay persons interpretation on pauls writings & it made more sense than anything I have ever heard before about that. Then again, people make their holy writ mean whatever their religion says it means.

LevitKus works well for those who enjoy legalism, and they really do believe legalism is what their god likes...do all these material rules to prove soemthing...you know the legalism god.

 

[Pico]

He didn't make me that way.

Welcome to what sin-cursed world is like. Only Jesus can un-do what sin has done.

 

[Netti-Netti]

What actions should be taken by the Christian community when such sins become apparent?

Hi Dream, just wanted to point out that the sin of homosexuality has not been established.

The passage that is often cited in connection with OT sexual morality is Leviticus 18:22. I looked it up on Biblos. It gave me a dozen Bible translations of the passage, none of which mention the word "sin."

Paul's writings include something about undue attachment to sexual pleasure when commenting on a historical situation. But what he said on the subject does not directly link sexual morality to salvation. He seems to have been taking stand on moral values he believed in, but not because he saw them as essential to salvation.

There is no Biblical basis for anyone taking it upon him/herself to try to change someone else's sexual orientation in order to improve their chances of being saved. There is also no basis for judging someone else sinful on account of their orientation.

It seems Christian groups are mistaken on this matter. Politicians and propagandists pander to these groups by reinforcing the notion that homosexuality is sin. They're just trying to exploit delusion for self-serving purposes. I believe this is an example of collective karma.

As a general comment: If Christians are serious about adopting OT principles, they should adopt all Jewish moral practices and traditions instead of selectively picking one out for strategic political value with a certain voting demographic.

With respect to salvation, a cursory reading of the Bible reveals that G-d only asks us to keep His commandments (which btw have nothing to say about sexual orientation) and love Him faithfully. Jesus never said anything about homosexuality being sin. However, he did have quite a bit to say about the importance of sharing the gospel of reconciliation and the value of efforts to illuminate the path for others that they may live in Spirit and in Truth.

 

[seattlegal]

Hi Dream, just wanted to point out that the sin of homosexuality has not been established.

The passage that is often cited in connection with OT sexual morality is Leviticus 18:22. I looked it up on Biblos. It gave me a dozen Bible translations of the passage, none of which mention the word "sin."

Paul's writings include something about undue attachment to sexual pleasure when commenting on a historical situation. But what he said on the subject does not directly link sexual morality to salvation. He seems to have been taking stand on moral values he believed in, but not because he saw them as essential to salvation.

1 Corinthians 6 (especially verse 9-10)

There is no Biblical basis for anyone taking it upon him/herself to try to change someone else's sexual orientation in order to improve their chances of being saved. There is also no basis for judging someone else sinful on account of their orientation.

Agreed.

It seems Christian groups are mistaken on this matter. Politicians and propagandists pander to these groups by reinforcing the notion that homosexuality is sin. They're just trying to exploit delusion for self-serving purposes. I believe this is an example of collective karma.

As a general comment: If Christians are serious about adopting OT principles, they should adopt all Jewish moral practices and traditions instead of selectively picking one out for strategic political value with a certain voting demographic.

Indeed, 1 Corinthians 6 speaks about the Christians taking each other to court over legal matters, rather than working things out amongst themselves. Political maneuvering is nothing new.

With respect to salvation, a cursory reading of the Bible reveals that G-d only asks us to keep His commandments (which btw have nothing to say about sexual orientation) and love Him faithfully.

What was Paul talking about in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, then?
(Compare to 1 Timothy 1:3-11)

Jesus never said anything about homosexuality being sin.

True.

However, he did have quite a bit to say about the importance of sharing the gospel of reconciliation and the value of efforts to illuminate the path for others that they may live in Spirit and in Truth.

Repentance from and forgiveness of sins was emphasized, imo.