What is the problem with Islam?

It is an assumption, you are right. It is based on a long history of people who have satirized other religious leaders, such as the Pope. There are people who don't satirize the Holocaust - they insist it never even happened! No one has been murdered, much less an office full of employees for these transgressions.

So it is an assumption. Based on what has happened in similar situations concerning other cultures and religions.
 
Religion is a trivial issue for the west, so satirizing Pope or Jesus or God is no big deal. I havent seen any proper satire of neither 911 nor Holocaust. Infact in many EU countries there are laws against it. Revisionists like Finkelstein face a hard life everywhere. From what I heard, same hebdo had fired an employe for satirizing the holocaust.

I am all for experiment though. Lets enrich science!!! The proof lies in the pudding, not assumptions :D
 
Devils' Advocate said:
It is an assumption, you are right. It is based on a long history of people who have satirized other religious leaders, such as the Pope. There are people who don't satirize the Holocaust - they insist it never even happened! No one has been murdered, much less an office full of employees for these transgressions.

So it is an assumption. Based on what has happened in similar situations concerning other cultures and religions.
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Or is it an assumption based on your limited knowledge of the subject. Do you know for a fact a office full of people hasn't been killed for satirizing the Holocaust? For that matter, are you sure that wars haven't been started partly because people have made fun of these tragedies? A root cause analysis of many a war can be started with someone insulting someone else and that negative impression being a driving factor for many more negative feelings.
 
I think the argument has been turned around, do YOU know of any instance where satirists have been murdered by any of these reasons, or wars started by them. I don't agree with DA about the accusations he points at Islam, attacking the differences we secular have on what is sacred is rather pointless and small. Islam and secular have many differences and we are fine with that, that is why we are on interfaith. We all agree that we shouldn't kill each other over it so we can let each other practice the sacred in any way we want, no?
 
A Cup Of Tea said:
I think the argument has been turned around, do YOU know of any instance where satirists have been murdered by any of these reasons, or wars started by them. I don't agree with DA about the accusations he points at Islam, attacking the differences we secular have on what is sacred is rather pointless and small. Islam and secular have many differences and we are fine with that, that is why we are on interfaith. We all agree that we shouldn't kill each other over it so we can let each other practice the sacred in any way we want, no?
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I think you are trying to turn an argument around... I never made the claim that someone else was... I was just pointing to the fallacy of calling it a fact that noone has been murdered because of those topics being satirized. I happen to have been told of several instances of the Holocaust being joked about leading to violence.
 
BigJoeNobody said:
Do you know for a fact a office full of people hasn't been killed for satirizing the Holocaust?
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I know of no such incident. Further more I know of no groups who are attempting to claim the Holocaust never happened - that such a group has ever been attacked and people murdered for trying to deny history. I rather think such an event would have made world news headlines.

Can you point to any such event? Any?

You know what, don't bother. Unless someone has something actually relevant to add where I can contribute, this will be my last post. I don't tilt at windmills.
 
Oh let's be honest, there are Muslims who insist on killing people for the slightest perceived insult. For example the English school teacher in Sudan who allowed her class to call a teddy bear Mohamed and we saw thousands of men in the streets with machetes calling for her death. It's ludicrous but says much more about Sudan than it does about Islam. Mohamed is not a sacred name, I know of some total jerks (drug dealers, rapists, etc) called Mohamed. We also have Hadith where the Prophet was insulted and his companions asked if they should kill the person and were firmly told no.

Most Muslims I've met would never dream of killing anyone over an insult but when you ask them about the cartoons of the Prophet you can see them visibly bristle. For the majority of Muslims it's simply a line people shouldn't cross. Does it require murder? Of course not, it requires suing the paper out of existence.

As for not hearing Muslim voices speaking out about such things, did you see the marches in Arab countries against 9/11? There were plenty of them and very big ones (the one in Tehran was massive) but they never made it to our media. Have you read all the scholars and Imams speaking out against ISIS? Probably not because our media doesn't cover it, yet I have because of the papers and websites I read.

One final point if I may, just because we in the west decided there are no limits, you can say what you want, take the mickey out of whoever you want doesn't mean the rest of the world has to agree with us and go along. Muslims have said very clearly there is a red line people shouldn't cross and the western world has said 'yeah whatever' ... we (the western world) don't rule the whole world, we don't get to decide for the whole world and at some point we need to understand that.
 
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Muslimwoman said:
Most Muslims I've met would never dream of killing anyone over an insult but when you ask them about the cartoons of the Prophet you can see them visibly bristle. For the majority of Muslims it's simply a line people shouldn't cross. Does it require murder? Of course not, it requires suing the paper out of existence.
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If you are a religion, I doubt the values of that religion would be sufficient grounds to sue when you've been the subject of satirical representation.

If you are a Hollywood celebrity, different matter. That says something about our culture, I think.

Muslimwoman said:
As for not hearing Muslim voices speaking out about such things, did you see the marches in Arab countries against 9/11? There were plenty of them and very big ones (the one in Tehran was massive) but they never made it to our media. Have you read all the scholars and Imams speaking out against ISIS? Probably not because our media doesn't cover it, yet I have because of the papers and websites I read.
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I saw Muslim leaders speaking out against the Charlie Hebdo attack. I looked for repeat coverage in the media later. Nothing. Everyone else was getting their opinion aired over and over.

I think Islam's in a no-win situation here. I used to get annoyed with the voice of moderate and sensible Islam not speaking up, but then I discovered it does, it's just no-one's listening. And furthermore, just look at what the media does say, usually reflecting and reinforcing the values of the uninformed.

Muslimwoman said:
One final point if I may, just because we in the west decided there are no limits, you can say what you want, take the mickey out of whoever you want doesn't mean the rest of the world has to agree with us and go along. Muslims have said very clearly there is a red line people shouldn't cross and the western world has said 'yeah whatever' ... we (the western world) don't rule the whole world, we don't get to decide for the whole world and at some point we need to understand that.
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A very good point. This 'anything goes' mindset is a signature of cultures in decline. There's actually profound explanations for it in esoteric and occult circles... I suppose the question coming back is, "Is nothing sacred?" to which the glib answer is "No". Until, of course, one's 'personal rights' are infringed.

Has anyone asked the question: "What is the problem with the West that causes such things as militant Islam?" It certainly didn't arise in a vacuum. ISIS is as much a product of the west, if not more, than it is of Islam.
 
Well media will sell what has market value. Recently a thousand Indian religious scholars unanimously denounced ISIS as unislamic, but no one cares.

Right now, Russia is bombing the hell out of ISIS and western media is whining about the "holiness of nation state" and "killing of moderate terrorists".

Moderate terrorists? LMAO.
 
Thomas said:
What is the problem with the West that causes such things as militant Islam?
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This is the common statement heard to try and put the entire blame on someone other than the Islamic militants. The West made them do it. Bull turds. Did the West play a part in the mess in the Middle East right now? Of course we did. We definitely share a portion of the blame. There is just as much blame on the Islamic side as well. Much of the fighting is centuries old tribal differences that has nothing to do with the West. I think there is plenty of blame to go around.
 
Thomas said:
I think Islam's in a no-win situation here. I used to get annoyed with the voice of moderate and sensible Islam not speaking up, but then I discovered it does, it's just no-one's listening. And furthermore, just look at what the media does say, usually reflecting and reinforcing the values of the uninformed.
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Unfortunately I have to agree with you. If we speak out we are either "apologists", "lying to spread Islam" or "indoctrinated into the death cult". However, as I have one foot in each camp I keep trying in the hope that I can show at least one person we aren't a threat to the world, we also don't agree with terrorism or extremism and our religion doesn't teach such things.
 
Devils' Advocate said:
Much of the fighting is centuries old tribal differences that has nothing to do with the West.
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not entirely accurate. for several centuries the Middle east experienced peace, This argument is very much a product of "Someone said x... I'll repeat until it becomes true..."

Devils' Advocate said:
I think there is plenty of blame to go around.
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Although I do agree entirely on this.
 
Muslimwoman said:
Unfortunately I have to agree with you. If we speak out we are either "apologists", "lying to spread Islam" or "indoctrinated into the death cult". However, as I have one foot in each camp I keep trying in the hope that I can show at least one person we aren't a threat to the world, we also don't agree with terrorism or extremism and our religion doesn't teach such things.
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It is unfortunate that the only reach most will attain is personal long term contact that changes people's minds... the Mass Dawa groups are almost as bad as being silent much of the time.
 
Devils' Advocate said:
Did the West play a part in the mess in the Middle East right now? Of course we did.
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Of course there is plenty of blame to go around and yes the Sunni Shia split has caused age old conflicts, tribalism also caused conflicts but historically we've also very much interfered in the Middle East, just look at the Crusades. A bunch of guys from Europe going to the Middle East to take control, setting up western royal families, etc while beggaring their own countries. Sadly we didn't learn, just look at our actions in Palestine and Iraq. We have never stopped trying to build empires.
 
Devils' Advocate said:
This is the common statement heard to try and put the entire blame on someone other than the Islamic militants. The West made them do it. Bull turds. Did the West play a part in the mess in the Middle East right now? Of course we did. We definitely share a portion of the blame. There is just as much blame on the Islamic side as well. Much of the fighting is centuries old tribal differences that has nothing to do with the West. I think there is plenty of blame to go around.
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There definitely havebeen sectarian and ethnic faultlines in the middle east (as everywhere), and the west made sure that those faultlines evolved into full scale civil wars, so that the lands will be easy to conquer and loot.

Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan, Iraq, Syria, Algeria, Libya are all american created wars. Jihad Industry was founded and "still funded" by US. Palestine and Kashmir are British leftovers. There are lots of endemic civil wars going on in Sub-Saharan africa (non-muslim), all directly or indirectly caused by crappy political entities and continuous western intervention. Lots of bloodshed in central/south america and south east asia in the previous century moslty done by US.

And now they say,"Putin is going to pay the price for bombing ISIS". It just shows everything.
 
Muslimwoman said:
However, as I have one foot in each camp I keep trying in the hope that I can show at least one person we aren't a threat to the world, we also don't agree with terrorism or extremism and our religion doesn't teach such things.
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I obviously don't have one foot in each camp. For the record, I don't think Islam is an Evil Empire out to conquer all of the world. I know that there are many in the religion whose simple wish is to live their lives in peace, allow their families to grow and prosper.

The difficulty for me is that it is impossible to separate the people who want to live in peace and the people who are extremists and want to follow an extreme version of Islam. Because I live in a predominantly Christian nation, I understand what the difference is between the ones who are truly Christian versus the ones who are just all talk. I do not have the cultural references to understand the same for Islam.

I think a lot of Westerners are like me. People who desire to be fair to your religion, but lack the resources to be able to separate the two groups.
 
Devils' Advocate said:
I think a lot of Westerners are like me. People who desire to be fair to your religion, but lack the resources to be able to separate the two groups.
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I agree with you, it's very difficult but the trick is to keep an open mind and ask questions. Most people who speak to me about Islam insist on telling me what it says and why my understanding is wrong based on what they've read in the media or online.

The media also has an awful lot to answer for in creating this fear and misunderstanding. An example, the poor girl who was gang raped by village elders for her brother running off with a married woman. That was largely reported in western media as 'a Muslim sharia court orders gang rape as punishment for brothers behaviour'. The fact that the Quran States very clearly that no soul can be punished for another's sin means the court was not a sharia court, it was a village kangaroo court. Rape is not a punishment in Islam in any stretch of the imagination and zina is strictly forbidden, so every man who took part in her gang rape committed sins that in a real sharia court would mean the death penalty. But sensationalism sells newspapers. When was the last time you read about a gang rape in a western country that stated 'Christian men gang rape woman'? Mentioning a persons religion only seems to count when it's a Muslim and sometimes for Jews.
 
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