Why is faith different?

[17th Angel]

Blind or blame? I'll take blindness.....

 

[Dondi]

A child questions many things. The parent will answer either, "because that's the way it is" and "because I said so", or if the parent really cares about the child, they will ask, "What do you think?" or give a reasonable answer which the child can understand, at his level of understanding.

You, chron, are a child asking. What kind of parent do you think you have?

 

[Dondi]

I tell you God is verifiable. I'll even tell you the details of my experiments and you can repeat them if you wish... or not.

I'd be interested in know the results of your experiments myself, cyperpi, if you still wish to indulge.

 

[cyberpi]

I submit that there is faith in asking questions, seeking answers, and in providing personal answers. If a Christian goes into a mosque and asks questions, I see faith. If a Muslim goes into a church and asks questions, I see faith. If a person travels to a foreign country asking questions, I see faith. If a person goes to their enemy and asks questions, I see faith.

But it gets twisted though. Rather than asking God for questions about God, the questions are being asked of a religious neighbor. That is like going to the religious person to ask him if my wife really exists, and whether she really loves me. What kind of answer do I expect to hear? Or should I go to my wife's friends and ask them? Or should I go to my wife's parents and ask them? If the person then defers the question and tells me that it is a matter of faith... they would be correct. Between my wife and I, it IS a matter of faith that we love each other. If I need verification from my wife, then I go to my wife... it takes faith to ask her the apparently tough question. She would be insulted or concerned, but then she'd ask me what it would take to 'prove' it. Is it different with God? The thing not understood, is that I can tangibly see my wife though. I can hear her words loud and clear, I remember them, I know a lot of her history, and I don't mistaken her words for my own. I can relate to my wife on the assumption that my reality in life is similar to hers. Whereas with God? He is in spirit, right? And then some. The thing is, I find that with my wife, friend, neighbor, etc.. it is the same. I know who they are and what they care for by their spirit... not necessarily by their words, not by their physical appearance, not by the dozens of de-thorned roses, not by the media, but by the interaction. I find it is the same with God. It is in the interaction that I see him. So, I don't think the evangelical fundamentalist is necessarily wrong.

If anyone wants proof, Faith is a method to see... not an excuse. Ask God things you can do for him. Ask God to do things for you. Ask for understanding. Ask God to reveal himself. Ask God what you can do to get closer to him. Watch carefully. When a person knows what they've asked, and sees what is in their mind, and sees what takes place, then they might see the proof that nobody else can see.

When I was younger I was annoyed by the sermon from someone who described in detail about hearing a voice of God telling him to do specific things. I held my mind clear of such nonsense and I could just imagine the reasons that might lead a person to fabricate such stories. I certainly do not wish to create that sort of resentment in anyone else, even though the resentment of mine, was really my own.

I've found several methods of seeing: in answered prayers, waking dreams, on my own lips, on the lips of other people (not everything a person does or says is necessarily their own), preemptive or predictive thoughts beyond the scope of the brain, events or coincidences that nobody else could have coordinated, rewards and punishments, even dialogue within the mind... praise and rebuke. But a person has to be active: seek to do good deeds, confess sins, pray, ask questions, etc... at least that is where and when I found the interaction.

The skeptic will say that I have overlayed what I want to see and hear. Fine. I used to be the skeptic and to a large degree they are still right. The clouded vision is not just while trying to see God... it is in trying to see anyone and everyone. When you look at a person you see the outside. What does it take to really see the inside? Faith is a method to see.

 

[wil]

Namaste and Amen cyberpi,

This is where it hits the road for me. Is that faith anymore? Do I have faith that if I throw and apple in the air it will fall? No. Is it a belief that it will happen? No.

So do you have faith in G!d or don't you just Know G!d?

I resonate with your post, empathize with your consternation about stating it.

You and I have a different understanding of it, but use similar principle, similar action, similar words and have similar results.

 

[cyberpi]

This is where it hits the road for me. Is that faith anymore? Do I have faith that if I throw and apple in the air it will fall? No. Is it a belief that it will happen? No.

I say No, but if I asked you to throw the apple in the air then I've placed faith in you that you might do as I ask, and if you do it then you've placed faith in me that what I asked might be worthwhile doing.

So do you have faith in G!d or don't you just Know G!d?

I know my wife because I placed faith in her and because she placed faith in me. I know a degree of science because I placed faith in others and because others placed faith in me.

 

[bob x]

"I'll even tell you the details of my experiments and you can repeat them if you wish... or not"
When I was a child of 8, I was impressed by the story of Elijah and the priests of Ba'al, where he asks God to send down fire, which the priests could not do. So I set some paper in the sink (so I could douse it quickly if it really caught fire) and asked God to show me. I really more than half believed it was going to happen. I did not, of course, see a miraculous fire, but instead felt, more than heard, a distinct revelation, "It doesn't work that way!" which stuck with me for the rest of my life.

 

[17th Angel]

Bob.... Bob, Bob, Bob.... Bob.... You're saying you heard a voice?

.... Why is it, that there are two gay men hugging each other at the top of this thread?

 

[Dondi]

"I'll even tell you the details of my experiments and you can repeat them if you wish... or not"
When I was a child of 8, I was impressed by the story of Elijah and the priests of Ba'al, where he asks God to send down fire, which the priests could not do. So I set some paper in the sink (so I could douse it quickly if it really caught fire) and asked God to show me. I really more than half believed it was going to happen. I did not, of course, see a miraculous fire, but instead felt, more than heard, a distinct revelation, "It doesn't work that way!" which stuck with me for the rest of my life.

What exactly were you trying to prove, bob x?

The problem with this is that you were trying to recreate something that had a specific purpose in a specific time, in a specific situation. Well, you are not Elijah, you are bob x. Therefore God will deal with you as bob x. Besides, Elijah didn't perform this act of faith to impress himself or prove God to himself, but to give glory to God. And if you read the scriptures, you ought to know that even with miracles clearly given, many still choose not to believe. It's not the miracles that are important, it is the God behind the miracles. Jesus' disciples once ask Jesus if they should pray and cause fire to come down out of heaven to consume the unbelievers as Elijah did, but Jesus rebuked them saying, "Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of." (Luke 9:54-56) If one wishes to see the things of God, one must have the right spirit.

 

[Snoopy]

Chron, I’m sorry if you’re feeling your question is not being answered. Clearly, there’s no consensus here, we’re just an eclectic bunch of individuals with different opinions and personalities, just as if we were real people! If you hang around, you’ll get more of a feel for people’s personalities (or not!). Here’s some simplistic brisk responses from me…!


why people persist in this curious practice of defending the unreasonableness of blind faith.

Think back to your past and how you thought then? If you grew up an evangelical fundamentalist I’m surprised you can’t answer your own question? Blind faith almost by definition means reason is not involved.


Again, the purpose of this thread is to explore why it is generally accepted that this line of thinking is all right in the domain of religion and not in any other area of life.


It’s a scary subject (relates to death) and dates back to when we grunted around in caves. Modern man (who’s only been around for about 10 minutes) hasn’t yet thrown this stuff out.


I'm not challenging anyone's beliefs; only the unwillingness to give reasons for those beliefs.

I try to minimise strong attachments to beliefs. I aspire only to great doubt. That’s not to say I don’t have opinions and may feel like airing them on occasion. I’m a sort of sceptical, agnostic with vague tendencies (if you’d care to pigeon-hole me).


The purpose of this thread is to examine why religionists (some, not all) insist that faith must not be questioned.


…as above (somewhere)…


When you ask me to believe, and I say, "Why?" -- if your response is "just because" or a variation of that, then I immediately have less reason to believe you.


Not from me! Plough your own furrow, ducky!


My question -- again -- is: why is that seemingly okay in the domain of religion, when it is not in any other area of life?


…as above (somewhere)…


why is, in the mind of some, faith not a matter to be questioned? Exempt from the strictures of logical thought?

As I posted earlier, logical thought is not appropriate to all areas of life (e.g. the aesthetic appreciation of the arts). Perhaps an element of faith is an essential ingredient?


It is entirely possible that, two hundred years from now, people will look back on the twenty-first century and shake their heads at our simpleminded outlook on the nature of reality, both physical and spiritual, saying things like, "Can you believe that they put all that faith in the scientific principle? Even a child knows that's been superseded by something much better long ago."

Well I’ve got no crystal ball, but I think the scientific method (experimentation, repeatability, peer review…) is a robust method of enquiry into physical reality. As to the “spiritual”… not sure as yet it’s appropriate, but maybe one day? If the mind and body are one, not two, then maybe yes?

These are my opinions today, chron. If you don’t like them, I have others.

s.

 

[Dondi]

Think back to your past and how you thought then? If you grew up an evangelical fundamentalist I’m surprised you can’t answer your own question? Blind faith by definition almost means reason is not involved.

What makes you think that evangelical fundamentalists do not reason? If you mean that blind faith is following a set of specific doctrines without question, then you are correct. If you say that all evangelical fundamentalists have blind faith, then you are not correct, for there are many, if not all, who do question what they believe. Perhaps it is the degree of questioning that is at issue here.

 

[Snoopy]

What makes you think that evangelical fundamentalists do not reason? If you mean that blind faith is following a set of specific doctrines without question, then you are correct. If you say that all evangelical fundamentalists have blind faith, then you are not correct, for there are many, if not all, who do question what they believe. Perhaps it is the degree of questioning that is at issue here.

I suppose it's my perception of them. Black and white. They're right, if you disagree, you're wrong. Seems unreasonable (to me...) (Perhaps they only do their questioning in private?)

s.

 

[wil]

I suppose it's my perception of them. Black and white. They're right, if you disagree, you're wrong. Seems unreasonable (to me...) (Perhaps they only do their questioning in private?)

s.

Reminds me of why my dad quit going to church. He didn't like someone pontificating from the pulpit for 45 minutes and then not getting any discussion, no Q&A on the topics raised. The preacher said he could meet him anytime. My father thought that if he had questions others would as well, and discussion would be valuable for all.

I have some of that issue in my as well. While I find that a lot of this can be solved by taking classes that allow discussion, I've only been in one church that has the nerve to actually do this. (20 minute talk, 20 minute Q&A each week).

I see that as preacher who has faith in what he speaks on.

 

[Snoopy]

I have some of that issue in my as well. While I find that a lot of this can be solved by taking classes that allow discussion, I've only been in one church that has the nerve to actually do this. (20 minute talk, 20 minute Q&A each week).

Crumbs. Q&A and "normal" conversations on anything you wish to talk about are an essential part-and-parcel of attending a Buddhist temple. I can't think of why it should be otherwise. I'm not doubting what you say wil, but "nerve" .

Is it rare for a dentist to have the "nerve" to explain how plaque builds up?

s.

 

[wil]

Crumbs. Q&A and "normal" conversations on anything you wish to talk about are an essential part-and-parcel of attending a Buddhist temple. I can't think of why it should be otherwise. I'm not doubting what you say wil, but "nerve" .

Is it rare for a dentist to have the "nerve" to explain how plaque builds up?

s.

lol, It could be if there were 50 different denominations of dentistry and 7 variations and interpretations of each. I frankly believe that is why it is so rare, most don't have the faith that they can back up what they say, nor be able to answer the questions their congregations may have. I think they lack the nerve, otherwise it would be commonplace.

Now I'm positive there are an infinite number of justifications as to why this would never work.

 

[Snoopy]

well, yes, there is consistency as long as you're talking about the same school of dentistry (and freedom of speech within that school )

s.

 

[bob x]

Bob.... Bob, Bob, Bob.... Bob.... You're saying you heard a voice?

No, a feeling rather.

Why is it, that there are two gay men hugging each other at the top of this thread?

I don't know, they don't appear for me. They must just want a threesome with you!

What exactly were you trying to prove, bob x?

To see if God actually shows Himself in such a way.

Besides, Elijah didn't perform this act of faith to impress himself or prove God to himself

but to "prove God" to others. And yet my feeling remains, that such public showings do not occur either.

And if you read the scriptures, you ought to know that even with miracles clearly given, many still choose not to believe.

You are taking it for granted that the scriptural stories are true, which is not something I take for granted, or even consider particularly likely.

 

[cyberpi]

"I'll even tell you the details of my experiments and you can repeat them if you wish... or not"
When I was a child of 8, I was impressed by the story of Elijah and the priests of Ba'al, where he asks God to send down fire, which the priests could not do. So I set some paper in the sink (so I could douse it quickly if it really caught fire) and asked God to show me. I really more than half believed it was going to happen. I did not, of course, see a miraculous fire, but instead felt, more than heard, a distinct revelation, "It doesn't work that way!" which stuck with me for the rest of my life.

Awesome. Which is more impressive, to light a fire or to ask God a question and hear the answer? Anyone can light a fire.

 

[cyberpi]

I'd be interested in know the results of your experiments myself, cyperpi, if you still wish to indulge.

The results... you want me to witness? Did you hear the earthquake story? It is the simplest to tell without sharing everything personal. You might have to meet me to learn some. If I were to call it an experiment, then the experiment is when someone comes knocking with their beliefs that you disagree with, then devise ways to figure out the source of them, often by asking them questions.

A fundamentalist shared with me beliefs that earthquakes were increasing in frequency and that it was a sign that an end was approaching. I asked him for the bible verse and when he came to me to share the bible passage about the earthquake, as we read it there was a short earthquake. That started to open my mind to the possibility that God was not so distant. That occured on Jan 28, 1995, 7:11:23 pm PST, in Seattle, WA. The odds were not astonomical, but neither were they ordinary. I consider the event a correlated event... and I have seen quite a few lately.

 

[bob x]

And the Grateful Dead were playing in Oregon, and had just struck up "Fire, Fire on the Mountain" when Mt. St. Helens erupted.