what is you definition of sin ?

[Netti-Netti]

Theology has nothing to do with it, Netti. I don't think G-d punishes us for our sins. We simply reap what we sow.

If you believe in a Creator G-d, then you may need to concede that G-d is allowing this to happen. That is, He has in effect empowered Satan to invade and imprison us.

Arguably, G-d has set the whole system in place. Your G-d concept and your theology may reflect your beliefs in that regard. For one thing, one might believe that this order of things was created in such a way that we would suffer and therefore desire G-d, who promises to relieve our suffering.

I'm personally not so sure we can fully get at the nature of things. But is it sometimes helpful to clarify ideas. Maybe all we have to talk about is theology.

 

[Gatekeeper]

If you believe in a Creator G-d, then you may need to concede that G-d is allowing this to happen. That is, He has in effect empowered Satan to invade and imprison us.

Why would that be Netti? What Satan? We have free will, and that is the only thing that gets us into trouble [IMO] We simply choose selfishness over selflessness. We attempt to be in control, and our attempts fail us miserably.

Arguably, G-d has set the whole system in place. Your G-d concept and your theology may reflect your beliefs in that regard. For one thing, one might believe that this order of things was created in such a way that we would suffer and therefore desire G-d, who promises to relieve our suffering.

If G-d is love, and we realize that love ultimately encourages peace, and unity, and that it creates joy, and happiness in the individual, then why wouldn't we desire Him/love over ourselves, and our selfish desires? (Long sentence I know) I obviously believe G-d to be love, just as I view Him to be the creator, and sustainer of all things.

I think God allows us to choose ourselves/our desires, over Him, and His desire for us. In other words, He gives us what we want. Self results in suffering, while Love results in comfort. It really isn't a hard choice [IMO] The problem is that we want to be in control, which is why the world is in the shape it is in. We (many) know right from wrong, yet we still hold on to the things which destroy our peace, and the peace in others.

I'm personally not so sure we can fully get at the nature of things. But is it sometimes helpful to clarify ideas. Maybe all we have to talk about is theology.

I don't know, Netti. Theology usually leads to argumentative behavior, and it certainly doesn't promote unity as far as I can tell. You know, being that we all think our theology is correct n all.

Blessings

GK

 

[Netti-Netti]

Why would that be Netti? What Satan? We have free will, and that is the only thing that gets us into trouble [IMO] We simply choose selfishness over selflessness. We attempt to be in control, and our attempts fail us miserably.

But these failed attempts also facilitate learning - assuming we are willing to learn from our mistakes, that is.

why wouldn't we desire Him/love over ourselves, and our selfish desires?

Lack of faith? According to the Bible, faith is the only condition that must be met in order to receive Grace.

I think God allows us to choose ourselves/our desires, over Him, and His desire for us. In other words, He gives us what we want. Self results in suffering, while Love results in comfort. It really isn't a hard choice [IMO]

The problem of evil. Traditionally, there are two kinds: There's (1) natural evil, which stems from the imperfection of matter, and then there is (2) sin. Some would say they are separate. My thinking is that sin is a subset of natural evil. Negative, out-of-balance actions reflect our imperfect understanding of things, and this is a byproduct of the imperfection of matter itself. It's part of the Created order. And as far as I can tell, this world is a learning environment. In effect, the only issue is how quickly we can learn.

I don't know, Netti. Theology usually leads to argumentative behavior, and it certainly doesn't promote unity as far as I can tell.

Yet here you are posting in the Religion, Faith, and Theology area.

You know, being that we all think our theology is correct n all.

In the Koran it says all you can do is share your own view; beyond that, don't worry about it. I agree with that.

 

[soleil10]

If you believe in a Creator G-d, then you may need to concede that G-d is allowing this to happen. That is, He has in effect empowered Satan to invade and imprison us.

Netti, if we study the process of the human fall,step by step Eve then Adam surrendered their authority to Lucifer. God did not do it. They rejected God's words (the scommandment God gave them) and instead listened to Lucifer words and beleive his comandement instead . They put him in that position, not God.

It is now our problem. God was certainly going crasy but He could not change his principles.

Arguably, G-d has set the whole system in place. Your G-d concept and your theology may reflect your beliefs in that regard. For one thing, one might believe that this order of things was created in such a way that we would suffer and therefore desire G-d, who promises to relieve our suffering.

God initiated the providence of Salvation right after the fall. The bad news is that we are in a middway position. Satan that we promoted to his position has a claim on us. The good news is that God still has a claim on us.

 

[Gatekeeper]

But these failed attempts also facilitate learning - assuming we are willing to learn from our mistakes, that is.

Absolutely! Which is why I myself believe evil exists for our benefit. We grow from our experiences when we are mindful. I believe G-d not only expected us to fall from His grace, but that He wanted as much. Not that He ever left us, but that He allowed us to experience life apart from His will.

Lack of faith? According to the Bible, faith is the only condition that must be met in order to receive Grace.

Sure, if a person has no hope for anything better, then they will not show faith in anything that could help them rise above.

The problem of evil. Traditionally, there are two kinds: There's (1) natural evil, which stems from the imperfection of matter, and then there is (2) sin. Some would say they are separate. My thinking is that sin is a subset of natural evil. Negative, out-of-balance actions reflect our imperfect understanding of things, and this is a byproduct of the imperfection of matter itself. It's part of the Created order. And as far as I can tell, this world is a learning environment. In effect, the only issue is how quickly we can learn.

I don't know, I view creation to be perfect in nature. We on the other hand take that perfection for granted, and then suffer when we get out of harmony with natural law. Yes, the world is a learning environment, and this is how it should be [IMO] We are geared to make mistakes, and then grow from them. The problem is most of us are fairly thick when it comes to realizing our shortcomings.

Yet here you are posting in the Religion, Faith, and Theology area.

Indeed! Yet, I hold very few theological views these days. I simply enjoy the opportunity to understand, and either learn from, or reject certain theological views points,a nd to also share what I myself view to be true. There is no harm done, nor is there a desire on my part to argue over theology. I either agree, or I don't. No need to argue over things that just can't be known as factual reality. [IMO]

In the Koran it says all you can do is share your own view; beyond that, don't worry about it. I agree with that.

Never read the Koran, but that statement sounds reasonable.

GK

 

[Netti-Netti]

Netti, if we study the process of the human fall,step by step Eve then Adam surrendered their authority to Lucifer. God did not do it. They rejected God's words (the commandment God gave them) and instead listened to Lucifer words and believe his commandment instead . They put him in that position, not God.

My response: If you believe that G-d is the Creator, then you'd prolly have to accept that He gave Adam and Eve the capacity for free will, thereby creating the possibility for the Fall.

The Fall was inevitable and surely G-d knew that when He made it an inevitability.

Never read the Koran, but that statement sounds reasonable.

I wonder why Islamophobes never cite that passage. Clearly the idea was to convey a spirit of religious tolerance.

 

[soleil10]

The Fall was inevitable and surely G-d knew that when He made it an inevitability.

Why would God give A&E a Commandment to avoid a possibility of falling if as you said, it was an inevitability.

That cant be. We cant have it both way

 

[seattlegal]

Why would God give A&E a Commandment to avoid a possibility of falling if as you said, it was an inevitability.

That cant be. We cant have it both way

Some things that are not harmful for mature people are harmful for immature people. **shrugs**

 

[Netti-Netti]

Why would God give A&E a Commandment to avoid a possibility of falling if as you said, it was an inevitability.

As long as there is free will, there's a possibility for falling.

It seems to me that the point of the Commandment was to make G-d's jurisdiction known. A&E discovered it for themselves when they experienced consequences for their failure to respect the limitations G-d had applied. Basically a negative reinforcement paradigm: learning to avoid punishment. We see the same kind of thing with the various Buddhist hell realms. There is one specifically for people who spend too much time posting theologically oriented stuff on discussion forums.

It also seems to me that we find out about the limitations over and over again. The question is: how much of this old *bang head here* routine does it take?

 

[GlorytoGod]

Is it with your spouse and mutually consentual?

its hypothetical, do you think that the act itself is a sin ?

 

[greymare]

ahh, "bugger". lol

 

[soleil10]

Some things that are not harmful for mature people are harmful for immature people. **shrugs**

The reason God gave them a commandement to follow is because they had not reached maturity yet. That is what parents do until there children reach adulthood.

 

[Netti-Netti]

I would say the Fall illustrates lack of faith. If the person does not renounce their ways, sin will usually lead to more sin. The consequences may be serious, but the fundamental problem is not sin itself. The problem relates to faith.

G-d gave Adam and Eve dominion of the earth, but at some point they apparently thought it was not enough. Maybe they were second guessing G-d's love and/or G-d's sovereignty. Wanting to be like G-d may be the key issue. But it is a byproduct of a lack of faith because it involves a shift away from G-d dependence to self-will.

Adam and Eve gave in to temptation to become like g-ds: "your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as g-ds, knowing good and evil." (Genesis 3:5) When they gave in to temptation, Adam and Eve either forgot G-d's sovereignty or they consciously resisted the idea of G-d being the ultimate source of good and evil.

Since Adam and Eve had no way of anticipating the consequences of giving into temptation, I'd say original sin was not totally conscious. To my way of thinking, the really deep-seated lack of faith comes into play when one continues to sin after having experienced consequences. In a sense, this warrants more attention than original sin, which I believe is basically just an initial learning experience.

 

[soleil10]

I would say the Fall illustrates lack of faith. If the person does not renounce their ways, sin will usually lead to more sin. The consequences may be serious, but the fundamental problem is not sin itself. The problem relates to faith.

Netti, what you are saying is true but this was not just another sin. This sin, called original sin is being transmited from generation to generation.
The process started with Lucifer. What happened that motivated Lucifer to question and then twist God's commandement .... and deceive and manipulate Eve first.

G-d gave Adam and Eve dominion of the earth, but at some point they apparently thought it was not enough

Only after they reach maturity (fruitful) and multiply. The fall happened before.

Maybe they were second guessing G-d's love

Actually, Lucifer is the one that started to question God's love because he used to deal with God directly but then as A&E grew as God's children, his path to God changed. Now he had to go through A&E. It was not that God loves him less but the order was that the angels were servant to man, not the other way around. This is when the trouble started

Wanting to be like G-d may be the key issue. But it is a byproduct of a lack of faith because it involves a shift away from G-d dependence to self-will. Adam and Eve gave in to temptation to become like g-ds: "your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as g-ds, knowing good and evil." (Genesis 3:5) When they gave in to temptation, Adam and Eve either forgot G-d's sovereignty or they consciously resisted the idea of G-d being the ultimate source of good and evil.

First Lucifer lost God's view, then he left his position, then he lied to Eve and got her to unite in heart with him. This reversed God's dominion. Eve got manipulated and fell emotionaly for it.

Since Adam and Eve had no way of anticipating the consequences of giving into temptation, I'd say original sin was not totally conscious.

I agree, A&E did not realize fully of the enormous consequences of their action. They felt shamed and hid their sexual organs.

To my way of thinking, the really deep-seated lack of faith comes into play when one continues to sin after having experienced consequences. In a sense, this warrants more attention than original sin, which I believe is basically just an initial learning experience.

To reverse the original sin, God gave them a path to reverse the course of the fall.
1)They or their children had to re-establish a condition of faith 2) God divided their sons in 1 representing Satan (the older) and 1 representing God (the younger). The older son had to submit to the younger son. It was something that Lucifer coud not do during the fall so it was a way for us to separate from Satan and regain dominion over him.

Through all the old testament, we can see this pattern, with all the central figures form Noah to Moses. When one was successful God providence moved forward.

Some central figures succeded in their foundation of faith but could not succeed in the other. Jacob is a good example when he won the heart of Esau who finally submitted to him.

The whole providence to prepare for Jesus' coming was based on the reversal of what happened during the human fall

 

[Gatekeeper]

When was Lucifer cast out of heaven, and why was he cast out of heaven, sol?

 

[Marsh]

Yes, we should have only one master and we cant serve two masters well.
Because of the human, fall both God and Satan want to claim us. God is not the one who surrendered our authority to Lucifer. We did it volunterily

If you look at the state of the world, Satan appears to be incharge. It is easier to be bad and selfish and promiscuous.

I agree that Satan appears to be in charge of the world, but he is not in charge of my life. Satan has no part in me, because I despise him. When I sin, it is not because I am trying to do what I know Satan wants me to do; I sin because I stray from the right path. However, I am quick to ask for forgiveness from my master: God.

There is only one master, and that is the one who created all things. Satan has not created anything; he should not be thought to be on equal footing with God.

People either serve God, or they don't. Those are the only options.

I don't believe that God and Satan are diametric opposites; rather, that God is all-powerful, and Satan is simply a rebel. Satan's ideology is based on pride, and because people are proud-- particularly powerful people-- they have formed the world into an image that is consistent with Satan's character. HOWEVER, you'll scarcely find anyone who actually devotes their life to Satan. When the Beast takes over, Satan will literally rule the world, but until then he's simply enjoying the show, and doing his best to influence the few people that he can influence-- the ones who have truly given themselves over to evil.

 

[Marsh]

Sin comes from the Greek word hamartia meaning literally, "missing the mark."

In addition, we have commands that we know we never keep, much less on a daily basis. For instance, who can claim to love God with all his heart, mind and soul every moment of every day? No one. Yet, that is the greatest commandment Matthew 22:36-38.

This is a daily sin for Christians lol

Ahhhhhhh.... we've been talking about two different things, then. Yes, we certainly do miss the mark without even knowing it; we missed the mark at birth because we were born into bodies that will eventually wear out and die, and we miss the mark by not living each day for the glory of God. Yes, I agree with you.

I was speaking of what I supposed could be called sinfulness. To some extent at least, I have come to terms with the fact that I have, am, and will miss the mark with God. However, I have not and hope will never come to terms with my sinfulness: the desire and the intent to disobey God. In my mind, sinfulness only happens when one intentionally sets their mind to doing something that they know is wrong. Hurting someone accidentally and hurting someone intentionally are not the same thing, even if that someone is God.

 

[soleil10]

When was Lucifer cast out of heaven, and why was he cast out of heaven, sol?

In Genesis 3:14, Lucifer was cursed by God. Due to the fact that those who wrote the bible lived in an agrarian society, we have a lot of agrarian images .

Lucifer not only rebelled against his Master God but he caused the master children to betray their own parent.

Just imagine, a trusted servant (becoming discontent with his boss) using his position to deceive, manipulate and cause the boss own children to disobey his most precious order by uniting with the servant and betray their own dad.

How will the dad trust his children from now on especially when they still do not cut off their relationship with the servant ?

 

[Bishadi]

What is yours ?

the commands thou hast known: Thou mayest not commit adultery, Thou mayest do no murder, Thou mayest not steal, Thou mayest not bear false witness, Thou mayest not defraud, Honour thy father and mother.'


any action imposed by choice that causes 'loss to the common'

Thou mayest not commit adultery, ... check... harms others, creates distain

Thou mayest do no murder, ......... check.... self-explanitory

Thou mayest not steal, .......... check.... of self, over any consideration

Thou mayest not bear false witness, ..... check.... and is the worst of all as the fib can harm others for thousands of years (see many of the beliefs)

Thou mayest not defraud,....... check .... selfish by intent

Honour thy father and mother........check....... all of the above is dishonor to your parent and GOD directly...... as your fathers are alive in you. What you do dishonors your whole lineage...........

that last one means....... be straight in all actions.

my opinion

 

[Gatekeeper]

In Genesis 3:14, Lucifer was cursed by God. Due to the fact that those who wrote the bible lived in an agrarian society, we have a lot of agrarian images .

Lucifer not only rebelled against his Master God but he caused the master children to betray their own parent.

Just imagine, a trusted servant (becoming discontent with his boss) using his position to deceive, manipulate and cause the boss own children to disobey his most precious order by uniting with the servant and betray their own dad.

How will the dad trust his children from now on especially when they still do not cut off their relationship with the servant ?

The point I'm making is that if Lucifer was cast out of heaven, and made to dwell on earth, then all was not very good in the beginning. We have some rebel angel on earth whom G-d was so displeased with that He cast Him out of heaven, and whom would ultimately trick Eve into disobeying G-d.

You suggest that it all happened in levels, but G-d had already cast Lucifer out of heaven for being rebellious according to your views, so again it just doesn't add up with scripture in my mind.

Self will is the culprit, and doubt in G-d (Lack of faith) is what caused the fall of man [IMO] I just don't see some literal being existing tempting us to go against G-d will. It makes much more sense to me that it was simply our own desires, and free will that made us miss the mark, or "sin".

They chose self over G-d, and doubted Him to the point where they were willing to choose the knowledge of evil, which is to act against the will of G-d. They chose self will over G-ds own will for them.

Free will is bugger, sol. We can choose self, or we can choose G-d and it is as simple as that. In my mind, there is no tempter other than our own deceitful desires to be in control ....

Even so, I believe that G-d wanted them to "miss the mark", so they might be complete, learning from their mistakes, and so man might one day choose Him over the desires of self, or the "flesh".

GK