what is you definition of sin ?

[soleil10]

G-d had already cast Lucifer out of heaven for being rebellious according to your views, so again it just doesn't add up with scripture in my mind.

He was cast out after he fell not before

Self will is the culprit, and doubt in G-d (Lack of faith) is what caused the fall of man [IMO][/quote]

Free will is the only way that true love can exist. God wanted his children to return love from their own free will. What parent would happy to receive the love of a child that is forced and no free ?

Free will is bugger, sol. We can choose self, or we can choose G-d and it is as simple as that. In my mind, there is no tempter other than our own deceitful desires to be in control ....

We have inherited Lucifer fallen nature.

Even so, I believe that G-d wanted them to "miss the mark", so they might be complete, learning from their mistakes, and so man might one day choose Him over the desires of self, or the "flesh".

Wy was God so grieved after the fall (Gen 6:6) if it is what he wanted to happen ?

Which parents would go through the effort to build a whole creation for their children, hoping they would loose it and bo bankrupt so they can see the value of what they have lost. Meanwhile they will have to live outside as homeless children.

What kind of God would this be. It would be hopeless

GK[/quote]

 

[Gatekeeper]

He was cast out after he fell not before

Yet he was on earth tempting Eve?

Free will is the only way that true love can exist. God wanted his children to return love from their own free will. What parent would happy to receive the love of a child that is forced and no free ?

I agree, and that is the beauty behind the fall. We will ultimately come to love Him, and His ways above ourselves, and our own ways.

We have inherited Lucifer fallen nature.

I'm not sure what that means ...

Wy was God so grieved after the fall (Gen 6:6) if it is what he wanted to happen ?

Which parents would go through the effort to build a whole creation for their children, hoping they would loose it and bo bankrupt so they can see the value of what they have lost. Meanwhile they will have to live outside as homeless children.

What kind of God would this be. It would be hopeless

I personally believe that G-d wanted Adam and Eve, and all mankind to be perfect, and lacking nothing. We have to experience a few things before we are able to be such. G-d, in my mind, was full of sorrow, seeing the wickedness of man on earth. I think it hurt Him knowing that He allowed them to chose self over Him. I think it hurt Him because we are all His children. The suffering on earth must have been great, and for this reason, G-d destroyed all but a few.

His ways are perfect, right? Without free will, we could never choose G-d over our personal desires. We must have a choice, and it us ultimately up to us what we choose.

Just my take, sol. I could certainly be wrong. Even so, if your view is correct, then G-d still allowed, and pretty much sent Lucifer to reign over man, and cause the suffering we endure. Either way, it was G-d whom has allowed us to suffer. I'd rather believe that our suffering is of our own doing, then to believe that G-d cast some rebel angel out of heaven to rule over us. He is after all all knowing, so He must have known that this would happen.

Blessings

GK

Edit: We have to die to self, and live for G-d. Our free will, and deceitful desires is what ultimately separates us from God/His will for us. It is when we choose self over Him that we get ourselves into trouble. It is us playing G-d, saying we know better than Him that we fall short. In other words, we can choose ourselves, or we can choose G-d. When we choose self, we and others suffer. When we choose G-d, we find joy, peace, contentment, and love.

 

[Faithfulservant]

Ahhhhhhh.... we've been talking about two different things, then. Yes, we certainly do miss the mark without even knowing it; we missed the mark at birth because we were born into bodies that will eventually wear out and die, and we miss the mark by not living each day for the glory of God. Yes, I agree with you.

I was speaking of what I supposed could be called sinfulness. To some extent at least, I have come to terms with the fact that I have, am, and will miss the mark with God. However, I have not and hope will never come to terms with my sinfulness: the desire and the intent to disobey God. In my mind, sinfulness only happens when one intentionally sets their mind to doing something that they know is wrong. Hurting someone accidentally and hurting someone intentionally are not the same thing, even if that someone is God.

Of course. Im glad we are on the same page then

 

[soleil10]

Yet he was on earth tempting Eve?

Tempting Eve is part of the fall. He was kicked out after.

agree, and that is the beauty behind the fall. We will ultimately come to love Him, and His ways above ourselves, and our own ways.

"The beauty behind the fall". !!!!!! Oh NO!!!please do not say that

Through the fall we became so seriously handicapped that God had to spent 4000 biblical years in agony to prepare the way for a Messiah , one man God can trust........and then we killed him...

It has been hell on earth since genesis.
The greatest consequence of the fall is that God had to experience overwhelming grief. This is the greatest injustice of all injustice.

I'm not sure what that means ...

It will take some time to explain what the main charateristics of the fallen nature are. It would take another thread

I personally believe that G-d wanted Adam and Eve, and all mankind to be perfect, and lacking nothing. We have to experience a few things before we are able to be such.

Growing YES, living in Hell on earth NO

G-d, in my mind, was full of sorrow, seeing the wickedness of man on earth. I think it hurt Him knowing that He allowed them to chose self over Him. I think it hurt Him because we are all His children.

I agree

His ways are perfect, right? Without free will, we could never choose G-d over our personal desires. We must have a choice, and it us ultimately up to us what we choose.

His love is unconditional

Just my take, sol. I could certainly be wrong. Even so, if your view is correct, then G-d still allowed, and pretty much sent Lucifer to reign over man, and cause the suffering we endure. Either way, it was G-d whom has allowed us to suffer.

God never sent Lucifer to reign oer man. He ask him to help A&E. We did create the base for our own suffering

I'd rather believe that our suffering is of our own doing, then to believe that G-d cast some rebel angel out of heaven to rule over us.

God did not do that at all

He is after all all knowing, so He must have known that this would happen.

that this could happen. That is why he gave A&E a commandment

Blessings to you too

 

[Gatekeeper]

Tempting Eve is part of the fall. He was kicked out after.



"The beauty behind the fall". !!!!!! Oh NO!!!please do not say that

Through the fall we became so seriously handicapped that God had to spent 4000 biblical years in agony to prepare the way for a Messiah , one man God can trust........and then we killed him...

It has been hell on earth since genesis.
The greatest consequence of the fall is that God had to experience overwhelming grief. This is the greatest injustice of all injustice.


It will take some time to explain what the main charateristics of the fallen nature are. It would take another thread



Growing YES, living in Hell on earth NO



I agree



His love is unconditional



God never sent Lucifer to reign oer man. He ask him to help A&E. We did create the base for our own suffering



God did not do that at all



that this could happen. That is why he gave A&E a commandment

Blessings to you too

We'll have to agree to disagree then, sol. I view G-d to be all knowing, all loving, and perfect in all His ways. The fall (at least for me) has given me the opportunity to seek, desire, and to place him above myself. Just because we don't like to suffer, doesn't mean that there is no purpose for it.

Jas 1:2 Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds,
Jas 1:3 for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness.
Jas 1:4 And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

Blessings

GK

 

[greymare]

lol, gatekepper said, "bugger" . lol. I thought it was only us Aussies that said that