Sound Doctrine?

[Gatekeeper]

Being that there are so many Christian denominations, what is sound doctrine? Doctrine is actually "instruction", defined by the Greek term "didaskalia" If we take into account what Christ teaches us through His instructions, I think it safe to conclude that when scripture refers to "doctrine", it isn't speaking of what some push off to be the core "doctrines" of the Christian Faith, but rather instructions in the Faith, which are the instructions set by Christ Himself.

Any thoughts on how we are to determine who is teaching sound doctrine, and who is not, then? Scripture can be interpreted many ways, but the commandments, and instructions given by Christ are as clear as crystal in my mind. The rest are the partials that will pass away once we see Him face to face [IMO].

GK

 

[lunamoth]

Love God, neighbors, enemies, each other as Christ loves us

Grace

Resurrection of Christ

Baptism

Eucharist/Communion

 

[Azure24]

...Scripture can be interpreted many ways, but the commandments, and instructions given by Christ are as clear as crystal in my mind.

You say Jesus' instructions are clear, but are they?

Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables...

"All these things spoke Jesus unto the multitude in PARABLES; and without a parable spoke He not unto them" (Matt. 13:34).

"But without a PARABLE spoke He not unto them…" (Mark 4:34).

...But they did not understand his parables...

"This PARABLE spoke Jesus unto them: but they UNDERSTOOD NOT what things they were which He spoke unto them" (John 10:6).

Jesus taught in parables only, and no one understood His parables, hence Jesus taught in a way that He knew no one would understand His message. This truth of Scripture is so revolutionary to the minds of most Christians that many will think it blasphemy, and yet the Scriptures abound with statements that fully support it.

Most say that Jesus spoke in parables to make the meaning of His teachings simple and clear and understandable to the simple farmers and uneducated people of Judea. My Wycliffe Bible Dictionary has a similar explanation: "Purpose of parables. The obvious purpose of Jesus’ use of parables was to make spiritual truth clear and compelling." What a crock.

"And the disciples came, and said unto Him, Why do you speak unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but unto them it is not given" (Matt. 13:10-11).

"Jesus spoke in parables to make His quaint little stories clear and understandable to the uneducated farmers of Judea," my foot: "and when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard His parables, they perceived that He spoke of them" (Matt. 21:45). The Chief Priests and Pharisees were generally highly educated people. But even they didn’t know what Jesus’ parables really meant, but they on one occasion at least, "perceived" that Jesus was speaking about them.

 

[Thomas]

Hi GK —

That's why we (Catholics) bang on about Tradition — once you've cut loose from that, you're adrift.

Thomas

 

[wil]

Any thoughts on how we are to determine who is teaching sound doctrine, and who is not, then?

I say look at their deeds and actions. How they resolve issues.? Do they ignore and push under the rug? Do they encourage questions and discussion? Harvey McKay used to hire employees only after he took them to a baseball game (or concert or opera or whatever), had dinner in their home...with over and 80% retainage rate in employees...he acredited it to having seen them in action in their normal surroundings.

I think the same is with traditions...watch them leave the parking lot after service...are they grimmacing, fighting to get away, have they forgot the sermon already? Stand there with your hand out (afterword you can go in and put whatever you collect in the offering) Gauge reaction do you get unconditional love and a caring concerned feeling for your welfare or looks of disgust and disdain? (oooo eeee baby...that one just came out, that would be a wonderful study and fodder for a heckuva book!!)

That's why we (Catholics) bang on about Tradition — once you've cut loose from that, you're adrift.

And the sun no longer revolves around ya!

Sorry Thomas, couldn't help myself.

 

[Gatekeeper]

You say Jesus' instructions are clear, but are they?

Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables...

"All these things spoke Jesus unto the multitude in PARABLES; and without a parable spoke He not unto them" (Matt. 13:34).

"But without a PARABLE spoke He not unto them…" (Mark 4:34).

...But they did not understand his parables...

"This PARABLE spoke Jesus unto them: but they UNDERSTOOD NOT what things they were which He spoke unto them" (John 10:6).

Jesus taught in parables only, and no one understood His parables, hence Jesus taught in a way that He knew no one would understand His message. This truth of Scripture is so revolutionary to the minds of most Christians that many will think it blasphemy, and yet the Scriptures abound with statements that fully support it.

Most say that Jesus spoke in parables to make the meaning of His teachings simple and clear and understandable to the simple farmers and uneducated people of Judea. My Wycliffe Bible Dictionary has a similar explanation: "Purpose of parables. The obvious purpose of Jesus’ use of parables was to make spiritual truth clear and compelling." What a crock.

"And the disciples came, and said unto Him, Why do you speak unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but unto them it is not given" (Matt. 13:10-11).

"Jesus spoke in parables to make His quaint little stories clear and understandable to the uneducated farmers of Judea," my foot: "and when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard His parables, they perceived that He spoke of them" (Matt. 21:45). The Chief Priests and Pharisees were generally highly educated people. But even they didn’t know what Jesus’ parables really meant, but they on one occasion at least, "perceived" that Jesus was speaking about them.

I disagree, Azure. Sure, He taught in parables, but His example, and commandments were strait forward. Scripture, and His parbles can certainly be interpreted many ways, but the commandments, and instructions given by Christ are as clear as crystal in my mind. (Yes, I said it again)

He taught us about grace, and faith, and love. He showed to us His resurrection, and taught us that we must be born again, which means to be born of the Spirit, dying to our own will, while humbling ourselves and living for Gods own. He taught us about forgiveness, and He set such an example that it is hard to not honor Him as the Son of God.

As Luna suggested (With additions)

Love God,

Love neighbors,

Love enemies,

Love each other as Christ loves us

Grace and Faith and Humility

Forgiveness

Resurrection

Being Born again


GK

 

[Gatekeeper]

Hi GK —

That's why we (Catholics) bang on about Tradition — once you've cut loose from that, you're adrift.

Thomas

I disagree, God created us so we might have life, and through His Son have it more abundantly. Faith changes lives for the better. Faith that we can become that which God wishes us to be (Loving, joyful, peaceful, gentle, patient, kind, filled with goodness, and long suffering towards our neighbors) is the staple of the Christian Faith, imo.

All of which Christ clearly demonstrated throughout His ministry. It is when we cut loose from Faith, and Grace, and humility, and forgiveness, and love, and resist true repentance - (A Changing of our behavior by the changing of our hearts, which is the gist of being born again) that we go astray.

GK

 

[Gatekeeper]

I say look at their deeds and actions. How they resolve issues.? Do they ignore and push under the rug? Do they encourage questions and discussion? Harvey McKay used to hire employees only after he took them to a baseball game (or concert or opera or whatever), had dinner in their home...with over and 80% retainage rate in employees...he acredited it to having seen them in action in their normal surroundings.

I think the same is with traditions...watch them leave the parking lot after service...are they grimmacing, fighting to get away, have they forgot the sermon already? Stand there with your hand out (afterword you can go in and put whatever you collect in the offering) Gauge reaction do you get unconditional love and a caring concerned feeling for your welfare or looks of disgust and disdain? (oooo eeee baby...that one just came out, that would be a wonderful study and fodder for a heckuva book!!)And the sun no longer revolves around ya!

I think you've hit on something here, Wil. Our actions reflect who we are, and what we most value. When we act in accordance to what Christ taught, our actions naturally reflect our submitance to the instructions given. by Him.

GK

 

[Azure24]

I disagree, Azure. Sure, He taught in parables, but His example, and commandments were strait forward.

They are (rather than were) straightforward, but (only BUT) for the Spiritually discerned... It is not easy to understand Spiritual! Because man is natural.
God gave us our souls to keep, but the Spirit is loaned. The soul is only a living soul when it is imparted with the Spirit and all Spirits belong to God (which he takes back, when we die). Therfore when we understand the Spiritual it is because of God in us, not of ourselves which is only natural...

So yes, and no (What good is it to understand but not follow? But when one truely understands he [naturally in Spirit] follows) not of himself but by God, because the Spirit belongs to God.

 

[Thomas]

I think the same is with traditions...watch them leave the parking lot after service...are they grimmacing, fighting to get away, have they forgot the sermon already? Stand there with your hand out (afterword you can go in and put whatever you collect in the offering) Gauge reaction do you get unconditional love and a caring concerned feeling for your welfare or looks of disgust and disdain? (oooo eeee baby...that one just came out, that would be a wonderful study and fodder for a heckuva book!!)

This is really the 'straw man' argument.

By your reckoning, private schools where students are pampered would come out the best, because they get better exam results than inner city state schools that are beset by every social deprivation.

Look at Christ, they crucified him. By your reckoning, both he and his message must have been a crock?

Thomas

 

[Thomas]

IAnd the sun no longer revolves around ya!
Sorry Thomas, couldn't help myself.

Yep, I think the Church revolves around the Sun of God, and I revolve around the Church.

Do you not realise, it is you who has determined that the sun should revolve around yourself?

Thomas

 

[Thomas]

I disagree, God created us so we might have life, and through His Son have it more abundantly. Faith changes lives for the better. Faith that we can become that which God wishes us to be (Loving, joyful, peaceful, gentle, patient, kind, filled with goodness, and long suffering towards our neighbors) is the staple of the Christian Faith, imo.

All of which Christ clearly demonstrated throughout His ministry. It is when we cut loose from Faith, and Grace, and humility, and forgiveness, and love, and resist true repentance - (A Changing of our behavior by the changing of our hearts, which is the gist of being born again) that we go astray.
GK

God also wanted us all to be one ... that was His prayer ... but even now we argue that we want to be one, in our own individual way ...

Thomas

 

[Gatekeeper]

God also wanted us all to be one ... that was His prayer ... but even now we argue that we want to be one, in our own individual way ...

Thomas

Indeed He does, but where does the oneness begin, and on what do we base it? I myself believe that we base it on what Christ based His oneness with the Father on, and that being the will of God, which I believe is:

Faith that we can become that which God wishes us to be (Loving, joyful, peaceful, gentle, patient, kind, filled with goodness, long suffering, 'humble, and self controlled').

Eph 4:1 I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called,
Eph 4:2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love,
Eph 4:3 eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

I don't believe we are to unite under any particular theology, but rather under the Spirit of the living God, which will produce (again) Love, and joy, and peace, and kindness, gentleness, meekness, long suffering, and self control. God deals with the heart; our mental pursuits are vain, but our submission to Gods will becomes empowering, imo.

GK

 

[wil]

This is really the 'straw man' argument.

By your reckoning, private schools where students are pampered would come out the best, because they get better exam results than inner city state schools that are beset by every social deprivation.

Look at Christ, they crucified him. By your reckoning, both he and his message must have been a crock?

Thomas

Namaste Thomas,

Such fun, by my reckoning, what would I do without you if I wouldn't have you to tell me what my reckoning makes me think??

Since the Bible is my most used, most read book, since Christ is the person I follow, guess what, I don't judge him a crock.

Now 'Jesus save me from your followers' is a bumper sticker I like as many drive me batty. And no by my reckoning your logic is again flawed because I could care less about exam results...as I said, get them outside on the streets that is where I would watch.

Yep, I think the Church revolves around the Sun of God, and I revolve around the Church.

Do you not realise, it is you who has determined that the sun should revolve around yourself?

Thomas

No, I didn't but this thread isn't all about me. Maybe you could start another thread where you tell me all about me and how I determined this.

Thanx be to Ivan, Thomas G!d loves you, take ten hail mary's and call me in the morning.

God also wanted us all to be one ... that was His prayer ... but even now we argue that we want to be one, in our own individual way ...

Namaste Brother,

We are one, we just don't appreciate it.

 

[Dream]

Being that there are so many Christian denominations, what is sound doctrine? Doctrine is actually "instruction", defined by the Greek term "didaskalia" If we take into account what Christ teaches us through His instructions, I think it safe to conclude that when scripture refers to "doctrine", it isn't speaking of what some push off to be the core "doctrines" of the Christian Faith, but rather instructions in the Faith, which are the instructions set by Christ Himself.

This is a terrific thread.

 

[Marsh]

Namaste Thomas,

Such fun, by my reckoning, what would I do without you if I wouldn't have you to tell me what my reckoning makes me think??

Since the Bible is my most used, most read book, since Christ is the person I follow, guess what, I don't judge him a crock.

Now 'Jesus save me from your followers' is a bumper sticker I like as many drive me batty. And no by my reckoning your logic is again flawed because I could care less about exam results...as I said, get them outside on the streets that is where I would watch. No, I didn't but this thread isn't all about me. Maybe you could start another thread where you tell me all about me and how I determined this.

Thanx be to Ivan, Thomas G!d loves you, take ten hail mary's and call me in the morning.Namaste Brother,

We are one, we just don't appreciate it.

So that's what being one sounds like?

 

[GlorytoGod]

is there such a thing as sound doctrine

 

[wil]

So that's what being one sounds like?

Namaste Marsh,

Yeah, when you hit your thumb with a hammer both the thumb and the hand swinging the hammer are unaware they are part of the one.

and thanx for the gentle wack upside the head!

 

[Marsh]

Namaste Thomas,

Such fun, by my reckoning, what would I do without you if I wouldn't have you to tell me what my reckoning makes me think??

Since the Bible is my most used, most read book, since Christ is the person I follow, guess what, I don't judge him a crock.

Now 'Jesus save me from your followers' is a bumper sticker I like as many drive me batty. And no by my reckoning your logic is again flawed because I could care less about exam results...as I said, get them outside on the streets that is where I would watch. No, I didn't but this thread isn't all about me. Maybe you could start another thread where you tell me all about me and how I determined this.

Thanx be to Ivan, Thomas G!d loves you, take ten hail mary's and call me in the morning.Namaste Brother,

We are one, we just don't appreciate it.

So that's what being one sounds like?

I think the problem is that even when we try to make a short list of what we should all believe in, that list is too long. Though I appreciate the benefits of tradition as Thomas stated before, I think that even simple traditions complicate matters. For example, communion was the last item on Luna's list, but communion is carried out in a multitude of manners based on denominational traditions, and then on individual church traditions. I've heard Christians get into heated arguments over the correct way to carry out what should be a simple act of faith, because it came down to a conflict of traditions.

At the same time, there can never be any oneness if there is nothing to bring Christians together. Wil, I have no doubt now that you are indeed a follower of Christ, but you follow Christ in a manner that is so vague that there is absolutely no way others could do the same. An initial response might be, "Great, because it doesn't matter how you follow Christ as long as you follow him." But how do you explain that to a new believer without setting them up to be left adrift, just as Thomas said?

I have no answer to this conundrum, by the way.

Personally, I think the only way that Christians can ever become one is through the Bible. Jesus led the first Christians personally, and they were one, but now the only shepherds we have belong to different clubs and believe in different things. The only physical thing that we share now is the Bible itself, but more and more Christians are turning their backs on it because it's not fashionable in our cynical Western culture to put faith in scripture.

 

[wil]

Wil, I have no doubt now that you are indeed a follower of Christ, but you follow Christ in a manner that is so vague that there is absolutely no way others could do the same. An initial response might be, "Great, because it doesn't matter how you follow Christ as long as you follow him." But how do you explain that to a new believer without setting them up to be left adrift, just as Thomas said?

Namaste Marsh,

And therin lies the grace of G!d!

Thousands of us are like me. And we all are united in an almost identical experience. "The Christianity I grew up with I no longer believed. I couldn't sit in the pew and listen any longer. And then I walked in here and found others think like me, and I felt at home." Anytime I am in a class or a new member group at church that is the common thread repeated over and over. Beyond that at regional and national retreats the same thing is repeated.

Our new believers may be a little confused with a group that says 'We don't teach you what to think, we teach you to think for yourself', but the old believers that have went adrift...they are all move in like it is a reunion of old friends that never knew each other.

G!d is good!