Socratic Merhod Useful for Examining Spiritual Ideas?
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juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Wil's such a ham, he can't help himself.
Wil does raise a point though...and now for me to find a way to express my thought. I can agree I have a dark side within my thoughts, but is that side truly dark if those thoughts are never acted on? To me that would be repression, and perhaps there are health consequences to my person for withholding such actions, but at the cost of saving other persons lives and health and property it seems to me an appropriate trade off.
Where if I were to simply openly express my darker tendencies without self restraint (presuming I would not end up in jail), there are persons who would no longer be walking the planet, or would be seriously injured, or at least would have destroyed property because of my inability to control myself.
So, presuming nothing is illegal if you don't get caught, are you saying it is appropriate to act upon such dark thoughts?
(BTW...is this course called "Welcome to the Dark Side, we have beer and pretzels?")
Wil does raise a point though...and now for me to find a way to express my thought. I can agree I have a dark side within my thoughts, but is that side truly dark if those thoughts are never acted on? To me that would be repression, and perhaps there are health consequences to my person for withholding such actions, but at the cost of saving other persons lives and health and property it seems to me an appropriate trade off.
Where if I were to simply openly express my darker tendencies without self restraint (presuming I would not end up in jail), there are persons who would no longer be walking the planet, or would be seriously injured, or at least would have destroyed property because of my inability to control myself.
So, presuming nothing is illegal if you don't get caught, are you saying it is appropriate to act upon such dark thoughts?
(BTW...is this course called "Welcome to the Dark Side, we have beer and pretzels?")
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
The reason for examining the dark stuff is to figure out why and how these thoughts arise, and how they are being misdirected/misunderstood. For instance, anger can be transformed into mental clarity if you apply it to your mind. See the file I uploaded.
aarggh,..gnawing on hard sourdough pretzels, wishing there was more guiness...wanting to throw the glass against the wall...
If I am not acting in urges/ thoughts how am I not repressing?
If I am not acting in urges/ thoughts how am I not repressing?
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Bhaktajan II
Hare Krishna Yogi
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During the High Middle Ages, theology was therefore the ultimate subject at universities, being named "The Queen of the Sciences" and serving as the capstone to the Trivium andQuadrivium that young men were expected to study. This meant that the other subjects (including Philosophy) existed primarily to help with theological thought. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theology
The word "university" is derived from the Latinuniversitas magistrorum et scholarium, which roughly means "community of teachers and scholars."
Universities were created in Italy and evolved from Cathedral schools for the clergy during theHigh Middle Ages.
The original Latin word "universitas" refers in general to "a number of persons associated into one body, a society, company, community, guild, corporation, etc."[4] At the time of the emergence of urban town life and medievalguilds, specialized "associations of students and teachers with collective legal rights usually guaranteed by charters issued by princes, prelates, or the towns in which they were located" came to be denominated by this general term. Like other guilds, they were self-regulating and determined the qualifications of their members.
In Europe, young men proceeded to university when they had completed their study of the trivium–the preparatory arts of grammar,rhetoric and dialectic or logic–and the quadrivium: arithmetic, geometry, music, and astronomy.
The rediscovery of Aristotle's works–more than 3000 pages of it would eventually be translated–fuelled a spirit of inquiry into natural processes that had already begun to emerge in the 12th century. Some scholars believe that these works represented one of the most important document discoveries in Western intellectual history
After Aristotle re-emerged, a community of scholars, primarily communicating in Latin, accelerated the process and practice of attempting to reconcile the thoughts of Greek antiquity, and especially ideas related to understanding the natural world, with those of the church. The efforts of this "scholasticism" were focused on applying Aristotelian logic and thoughts about natural processes to biblical passages and attempting to prove the viability of those passages through reason. This became the primary mission of lecturers, and the expectation of students. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University
university (n.)
from universus "whole, entire" (see universe).
The word "university" is derived from the Latinuniversitas magistrorum et scholarium, which roughly means "community of teachers and scholars."
Universities were created in Italy and evolved from Cathedral schools for the clergy during theHigh Middle Ages.
The original Latin word "universitas" refers in general to "a number of persons associated into one body, a society, company, community, guild, corporation, etc."[4] At the time of the emergence of urban town life and medievalguilds, specialized "associations of students and teachers with collective legal rights usually guaranteed by charters issued by princes, prelates, or the towns in which they were located" came to be denominated by this general term. Like other guilds, they were self-regulating and determined the qualifications of their members.
In Europe, young men proceeded to university when they had completed their study of the trivium–the preparatory arts of grammar,rhetoric and dialectic or logic–and the quadrivium: arithmetic, geometry, music, and astronomy.
The rediscovery of Aristotle's works–more than 3000 pages of it would eventually be translated–fuelled a spirit of inquiry into natural processes that had already begun to emerge in the 12th century. Some scholars believe that these works represented one of the most important document discoveries in Western intellectual history
After Aristotle re-emerged, a community of scholars, primarily communicating in Latin, accelerated the process and practice of attempting to reconcile the thoughts of Greek antiquity, and especially ideas related to understanding the natural world, with those of the church. The efforts of this "scholasticism" were focused on applying Aristotelian logic and thoughts about natural processes to biblical passages and attempting to prove the viability of those passages through reason. This became the primary mission of lecturers, and the expectation of students. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University
university (n.)
from universus "whole, entire" (see universe).
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Ah, that's a bit to digest and lunchtime is almost over (and my belly is full!), this may take me a little time. Dangit!
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
I'm not Wil, and I don't even portray him on TV. But I'd like to take a stab at this.
The glass is inert, sand. It is not a living, breathing entity, and even it's natural form has been artificially changed. So as a non-living non-entity, it seems an appropriate stand in for release of negative energy. Or so it seems to me, although I would bemoan the wasted cost, but that is a personal problem.
A Cup Of Tea
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Reminds me of a quote from the film Peaceful Warrior.
"The mind is just a reflex organ. It reacts to everything. Fills your head with millions of random thoughts a day. None of those thoughts reveal any more about you than a freckle does at the end of your nose."
That stuck with me and it's how I relate to what is going on in my head. So I let that go and focus on my actions, it's enough to occupy my mind...
Also, hi @seattlegal it's good to see you again!
Nice one, Bhaktajan
But it was Aristotle's methodology as well as his philosophy in general that gave rise to what was called 'scholasticism'.
It should not be overlooked that Plato was still 'the Godfather of Philosophy' — Thomas Aquinas is ranked as Number 1 among the Scholastics, and his methodology is an exemplar of Aristotle, but he is a Platonist as much as an Aristotelian (and a Christian first above all).
In the Summa Theologiae, the two most quoted sources outside Scripture, are Dionysius the pseudoAreopagite (St Denys in the Orthodox traditions) and St Augustine (frowned on by the Orthodox as too subjective), both of whom were indisputably Platonists. Platonism continues to show its colours in the Christian mystical traditions, and the Dominicans especially (Aquinas, albertus Magnus, Eckhart ...)
At the universities in those days, students paid to attend lectures, so the lecturers received their income accordingly. In Paris, St Thomas Aquinas and St Bonaventure were contemporaries! If I were a student and it was one or t'other, I'd probably spontaneously combust!
True ...
But it was Aristotle's methodology as well as his philosophy in general that gave rise to what was called 'scholasticism'.
It should not be overlooked that Plato was still 'the Godfather of Philosophy' — Thomas Aquinas is ranked as Number 1 among the Scholastics, and his methodology is an exemplar of Aristotle, but he is a Platonist as much as an Aristotelian (and a Christian first above all).
In the Summa Theologiae, the two most quoted sources outside Scripture, are Dionysius the pseudoAreopagite (St Denys in the Orthodox traditions) and St Augustine (frowned on by the Orthodox as too subjective), both of whom were indisputably Platonists. Platonism continues to show its colours in the Christian mystical traditions, and the Dominicans especially (Aquinas, albertus Magnus, Eckhart ...)
At the universities in those days, students paid to attend lectures, so the lecturers received their income accordingly. In Paris, St Thomas Aquinas and St Bonaventure were contemporaries! If I were a student and it was one or t'other, I'd probably spontaneously combust!
Nicholas Weeks
Bodhicitta
Dialectic is sublime reasoning, not just a logical method. Plotinus gives insight in Enneads 1.3. Here is a bit:
“5. Whence does this science [of Philosophy] derive its proper principles? Intelligence furnishes the soul with the clear principles she is capable of receiving. Having discovered and achieved these principles, dialectics puts their consequences in order. Dialectics composes, and divides, till it has arrived at a perfect intelligence of things; for according to (Plato), dialectics is the purest application of intelligence and wisdom. In this case, if dialectics be the noblest exercise of our faculties, it must exercise itself with essence and the highest objects.”
Excerpt From: Plotinus. “Plotinos: Complete Works" v. 1, Guthrie
“5. Whence does this science [of Philosophy] derive its proper principles? Intelligence furnishes the soul with the clear principles she is capable of receiving. Having discovered and achieved these principles, dialectics puts their consequences in order. Dialectics composes, and divides, till it has arrived at a perfect intelligence of things; for according to (Plato), dialectics is the purest application of intelligence and wisdom. In this case, if dialectics be the noblest exercise of our faculties, it must exercise itself with essence and the highest objects.”
Excerpt From: Plotinus. “Plotinos: Complete Works" v. 1, Guthrie
All good stuff ... and perhaps it's worth commenting that a necessary prerequisite is objectivity or, as Eckhart called it, detachment, so this is a study best undertaken if not under guidance, then at least with someone to whom one can 'bounce off' ...
Human nature has, it tragically seems, an infinite capacity for the dark, so one needs to be careful one is not biting off more than one can chew. Do not the Eastern Traditions assert, more strenuously than the West perhaps, that the Ego is supremely skilled in 'pulling the wool over your eyes'?
When subjectivity clouds the mind, then self-examination too easily becomes self-indulgence, or worse, it actually opens the way for the dark, and seven demons move in where there was just one before ... 'you become what you think about' as the ancients say ...
The story of Pandora's Box has something to say on the topic, too, and if I may mix my metaphors, getting the genie back in the bottle can be a bastard of a struggle ...
I am so blessed
I am still stuck on how examing without acting, exploring, is not still repressing.
The glass did nothing.,.. I was examining my dark side...if I chose to examine the glass and repress my dark side, it would still be whole....
This is my confusion....maybe my dark side is overly dark...but I think we all have contemplation, thoughts which must be repressed or society would suffer. I am an animal.
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
This seems reasonable, and makes a good exercise...or would that be exorcise?
Another way of saying "the devil is in the details?"
It is a delicate balance, but one must retain a critical mind in my view, even when being guided.
If not impossible...ain't that the truth!
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Been mulling over this. At face value I want to agree. Upon deeper reflection, I wonder... On the one hand, thoughts are energy and energy can travel. It is difficult to "prove" in the conventional sense, but not every thought that crosses one's mind belongs to or originates within that person. In that sense I agree such spurious thoughts do not reveal anything specific about a person.
However, the thoughts a person chooses to entertain, be they good, bad or indifferent, would to my way of thinking be very revealing of the inner workings of a given person. I would think the likes of Carl Jung, Sigmund Freud, John B. Watson and William James would have a great deal to say to this directly....
And where do dreams fit into the scheme of things among all of the random thoughts within our minds?
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A Cup Of Tea
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Not sure about thoughts as energy, I don't know how to relate to that. To me they are more like balls that bounce on the trampolines of our minds. They don't have any propulsion themselves but the property of the mind (the trampolines elasticity) and the experience (the force and direction at witch the ball hits the trampoline) determine the reaction. An imperfect metaphor but I hope it illustrates my point.
I agree in a way, but to me the inner works are pure chaos, which is just another way of saying I don't comprehend or perceive any order. If the mind is a collection of experiences and learnt behaviour and if there is any reason to the (perceived) madness it is beyond me. When trying to attribute purpose to the (perceived) randomness I don't think I can differentiate between logic, fear or wishful thinking. Is there anything that indicates that I will always have the correct purpose within my grasp for any given thought? And if no, will I not make wrong judgements a number of times? Wouldn't these false purposes skew further analysis of the mind? These are the questions that keep me from inferring any meaning to the echo chamber that is my mind.
I relate to dreams the same way I do thoughts, but perhaps the subconscious gets to run the show with a lot more tools at it's disposal. I like the idea that it's an evolutionary tool to prepare the mind for encountering reoccurring situations.
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Got a chance to read it, went quicker than I thought, but also seemed a bit...sparse.
I am aware whatever exposure I've had to disciplines other than Christianity are at best cursory, and through a decided western slant (not necessarily mine, which I'm certain contributes, but western practice of most other disciplines seems to me typically diluted from the originals). I'm not sure the bearing towards the subject at hand, but it is worth keeping in mind as I explore the subject...
I don't see a better way to explain my thought other than anecdotally, so indulge me please.
I used to see a chiropractor / acupuncturist over the course of about 5 years, and I like to think we were just a little more than acquaintances though not quite friends. She had a broad exposure (the western sense I mentioned) to some eastern philosophies, I think in large part to her vocation (acupuncture). She introduced me to, among other things, the Tao of Pooh and the Te of Piglet. Simplistic, but I'm more like a child in those disciplines, so appropriate at that point in my life.
To the OP, she made me aware that I *choose* to be angry. I thought this a rather odd view to hold, but I also knew my temper, which while I want to believe I control it tolerably well I do have my less than civil moments.
Not long after she and I had this conversation about anger, I found myself in one of my moods that was triggered by I don't even remember what...but mentally I had the opportunity to watch myself grow angry, as if my mind at that moment was (sort of) parallel to my self. I was consciously aware of becoming angry, but it wasn't something I deliberately set out to do. Oh, words fail me here. I watched myself "lose it," but it was a learning moment, and from that I've been able to (when I want to and think about it) redirect the anger, or at least reconsider whether getting angry is an appropriate response to the situation.
I still get angry, but where prior it was something instinctive, reactive, purely emotive and responsive, now I can be more measured in my "anger response." Not withholding or repressing, more like redirecting.
Is this in line with what you are trying to present here?
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juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Good responses, and that is what makes exercises such as this good learning opportunities, is that there are no right or wrong answers.
I could try to point to examples to help demonstrate my comment about thought energy, but it would be time consuming and possibly derail the thread, and I'm not sure I could explain it well enough anyway. Suffice to say it is based mostly in personal experience along with complimentary experiences by others, in combination with some physics (Nikola Tesla demonstrated electric energy could be projected through the atmosphere, and then think of radio and other electrical pulses that are projected through the atmosphere) and biology (brain waves are electrical), and some cursory religious / spiritual disciplines. But it boils down to accepting or not, and so I qualify by saying I cannot prove it in the traditional manner.
I've been looking the last couple of days into the development of thought in prehistoric humanity (a long term interest of mine, but a recent article gave me a new avenue to look down), symbolic thought and imagination are two very strong components of any given human mind. I guess what I'm saying is, I don't see chaos. Random, in the sense of "hearing" outside thoughts that do not originate within the person (which for the moment you don't accept, and that's OK), I would agree with. But whatever starts within the person would have to have some frame of reference. Even then, the thought may be random, but in order to be chaos to my way of thinking, these thoughts would have to be often or commonly based in things the person was in no way familiar with. And that may only be my semantic interpretation of what you wrote, I'm not sure, but that's my take at the moment. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I see a huge difference between "random" and "chaos." Sorry for the longwinded thinking in text.
John B. Watson (founder of Behaviorism) would differentiate as Fear, Rage and Love.
Oh boy, dreams could make an extensive thread of their own. I see the mechanics of dreams as the same mental tools being used for imagination, and in turn the same as used for meditation. Same tools, but whether directed or guided, or let loose to do its own thing. I do think the typical REM night time dreams are kind of a defrag for the mind to dump unnecessary recorded input from the day, which sometimes weaves itself into an amusing but otherwise unreal tapestry over the course of the dream...which most often is forgotten on awakening. But there are other types of dreams, and imagination can be considered a waking dream, and then meditation is self directed waking dream with some other self directed physiological control to enhance the self directed waking dream... Then a person could get all Jungian about dreams and archetypes and go off on that tangent...
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Repression is suppressing thoughts that would cause you anxiety to bring to consciousness.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_repression