There is no justice if atheism is true

Punishment for doing an action seen as unwanted/threat by others is a very human and egoic concept. And certainly not what the original teachings of the Jesus I accept would preach. Or even the divine being I could accept would.

Responding with love, not fear or hate, is what truly solves a problem. Otherwise we just delay it for a while.

I often wonder what went thru the mind of a child seeing its first execution.
'What are they doing Dad?'
'They're killing the person.'
'Why?'
'To punish them.'
'Why?'
'For killing a person. '
 
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
I would disagree we have no facts,
Click to expand...
Nothing verifiable, with any degree of certainty
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
This is well worth researching, especially from many NDE experiences.
Click to expand...
Data points of a sort, intriguing for sure. Not conclusive... but of great interest to many.
I like reading those accounts too. I take them with a grain of salt, but I don't dismiss them out of hand.
Still everything in any "world beyond" is less sure to us than what we see around us in this world - and people can't even always agree upon that!
 
iBrian said:
I'm reminded of a quote from the end of Terry Pratchett's Hogfather:

"take the universe and grind it down to the finest powder and sieve it through the finest sieve and THEN show me one atom of justice, one molecule of mercy."

I don't understand why people expect there must be some form of punishment after death - it seems a very human desire, rather than a spiritual one.
Click to expand...
My belief is it's possibly cos the world as it presents itself to us as kids is very different from what it appears to us as adults. At least in the modern world. We're told 'stories' of how things work together, how good people are rewarded and bad people are not, how hard work always has benefits, how god loves all of us etc etc. Basically of how love conquers everything....

Then we grow up and realize how much of a crock that is. As our brain is exposed to more and more laws, of how this should be and that should not, more and more neural links crop up dividing the world into smaller and smaller pieces. The child's brain is open, willing to accept anything. The 20yr old's has more inhibitive circuits in general. So more walls within and a setting of which side of those it should be on.

When we realize that by default, anarchy is the sole rule of this reality, we scramble to create an illusory reality that we can accept. Civilization is really illusion. But possibly a necessary one for the egoic brain to create. We need to believe in the story as we grow and even to some extents as we age. My guess is that the decrease in age of people attempting suicides nowadays possibly has one factor in openness of info in the world today. When a source they trust show kids nowadays the unfairness of the world they inhabit and they also have nothing to support reasons to stay in it, welp why would a kid stay in this reality if scientism, the current religion, also says all awareness ends at death?
 
Last edited:
TheLightWithin said:
I think because people feel powerless in the face of injustice in this world, and hope for some form of it in the next.
Click to expand...
I agree, but then that invites the whole concept of relative moralism - what seems wrong to one person might not seem wrong to another.

Additionally, terrible things that happen in human history can result in very positive outcomes. I doubt anyone would argue WWII was a good thing with tens of millions of people killed - and yet, it was because of its horrors that great strides were made in medical treatments and technology that have saved countless lives since, such as the widespread development and use of antibiotics.
 
iBrian said:
... terrible things that happen in human history can result in very positive outcomes. I doubt anyone would argue WWII was a good thing with tens of millions of people killed - and yet, it was because of its horrors that great strides were made in medical treatments and technology that have saved countless lives since, such as the widespread development and use of antibiotics.
Click to expand...
That's why I think suffering in some form is needed in the reality of man. When peace abides everywhere and pleasures can be satisfied with no risk or effort, the brain becomes lax and does not strive to solve problems because the rest state can be achieved easily. It is challenge that fires up our neurons.

In a sense, I think that's what we see in the world today. The brain can be rewarded with a few mouse clicks and inner systems don't need to form new circuits since our tools can do our work for us. Experience and practice shape the intelligence of the human mind, not possession of apps with the most features.
 
TheLightWithin said:
Nothing verifiable, with any degree of certainty
Click to expand...
I would offer the only certainy is that of the Spirit.

The material world only exits because of the Spirit. This is what all the Saints and Martyrs of the past have given their life for. This is what Jesus asks us to pick up the cross for.

Regards Tony
 
Vasu Devan said:
Yeah Sadly while philosophical belief systems like Hinduism, Buddhism and Taoism can support atheistic belief to some extent, as Western concepts creep into the East, religion gets tangled with Nationalism.

India never had any major issue with the Muslims or Christians living there but now wants to make its tenets national law, to the point of breaking rule of ahimsa to do so. Much like what is going on in USA right now.
Click to expand...
My Hinduism and atheism has no problem with 'nationalism'. I believe all people should be 'nationalistic'. If we care for our home, then why not the nation? It is my 'dharma' (duty).

Look at what Muslims and Christians are doing. At times acting strong is a necessity. That is what Krishna said. All religions are false if they talk about God, soul, messengers, heaven, hell, judgment, end of days and deliverance and ever-lasting life. There is no evidence for any of these things. By conversion, either one falls into darkness or from a pit to a ditch. Most people stick to their life and livelihood. It is a fringe which needs hard handling.
Vasu Devan said:
Responding with love, not fear or hate, is what truly solves a problem. Otherwise we just delay it for a while.
Click to expand...
Don't live in your utopian world. Talk about that with Field Marshal Syed Asim Munir Ahmed Shah of Pakistan.
Have you ever heard his speeches?
 
Last edited:
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
I would disagree we have no facts, it is all relative to our frames of reference.
We have the Messengers who are the apex of Justice, all the virtues in fact.

This is well worth researching, especially from many NDE experiences.

Now think about our connection with our ancestors, and admire the ancient cultures that celebrate their ancestors,
Click to expand...
Oh, you are talking of the uneducated 19th Century Iranian, Husayn Ali Nuri.
Not for any one else, but his followers. There is no evidence to support such claims. Not just his, but that of Muhammad, Jesus or Moses.

NDE experiences are because of accumulation of Carbon Dioxide and Carbon Mono-oxide in a dying brain.
Read details here: Reason for NDE

Wt is wrong with that. I respected my parents. I respected my grand-patents. Why should I omit their parents and grand-parents from respect.
 
Aupmanyav said:
My Hinduism and atheism has no problem with 'nationalism'. I believe all people should be 'nationalistic'. If we care for our home, then why not the nation? It is my 'dharma' (duty).

Look at what Muslims and Christians are doing. At times acting strong is a necessity. That is what Krishna said. All religions are false if they talk about God, soul, messengers, heaven, hell, judgment, end of days and deliverance and ever-lasting life. There is no evidence for any of these things. By conversion, either one falls into darkness or from a pit to a ditch. Most people stick to their life and livelihood. It is a fringe which needs hard handling.

Don't live in your utopian world. Talk about that with Field Marshal Syed Asim Munir Ahmed Shah of Pakistan.
Have you ever heard his speeches?
Click to expand...
Well, we then have varying definitions of 'nationalism'. For you perhaps, it is enforcing Hindu precepts at the cost of lives of others? And least some Hindu precepts. The killing and attacking of others seems satisfactory to you because they are doing it for 'the nation'. We are all entitled to our opinions of course. I no longer choose to presuppose one path better than an another as an absolute. The brain wants absolutes while working with relatives. The heart can accept all if it is being. Unconditional love may be a temporary brain glitch when experienced but it seems to alter the mind of the witness. Atheism uses scientism as its dogma so how it is so different from the monotheistic faiths you seem to hate with a passion?

You are also telling me what 'Krishna said'. Yet you deny the teachings of the teachers of other religions as false? Everything is One but the brain seems to divide. And always will in its default form.
 
Udaipur Files: What would you do if they start cutting your neck just because you are a Hindu?

Please note: Everything is One in Paramarthika, not in Vyavaharika. You are confused. Don't mix up the two.

"vyavasāyātmikā buddhir, ekeha kuru-nandana; bahu-śākhā hy anantāś ca, buddhayo ’vyavasāyinām"
BhazgawadGita 2.41
Those who are on this path are resolute in purpose, and their aim is one. O beloved child of the Kurus, the intelligence of those who are irresolute is many-branched.
 
Aupmanyav said:
Udaipur Files: What would you do if they start cutting your neck just because you are a Hindu?

Please note: Everything is One in Paramarthika, not in Vyavaharika. You are confused. Don't mix up the two.

"vyavasāyātmikā buddhir, ekeha kuru-nandana; bahu-śākhā hy anantāś ca, buddhayo ’vyavasāyinām"
BhazgawadGita 2.41
Those who are on this path are resolute in purpose, and their aim is one. O beloved child of the Kurus, the intelligence of those who are irresolute is many-branched.
Click to expand...
It is kinda funny you have to admit. How you deny the validity of other religions while quoting from the Geeta as backup for your validity? Well, enjoy your game. It is all Leela in the end, right?
 
Aupmanyav said:
There is no evidence for any of these things.
Click to expand...
I remember when I was growing up it was well-known that bumblebees were too heavy to fly, and fish swam faster than physics allowed. It was only around the turn of the 21st century that it was found that it was turbulence that was responsible in both situations.

Point being that observation can often come long before actual evidence. So just because something is not currently accepted by academia doesn't mean to say it never will. :)
 
Aupmanyav said:
There is no evidence to support such claims. Not just his, but that of Muhammad, Jesus or Moses.
Click to expand...
All existence is a bounty of evidence.

Attempts to veil the light of God will always fail and it reminded me of a couple of short poems I previously wrote for people that attempt to veil the light given by God through Baha'u'llah, Jesus, Muhammad and all the Messengers.

One God, One Faith,
One Spirit, One Race,
One Promise, One Aim,
One Love, much to Gain,
One Vision, One End,
One purpose to comprehend.

World Unity now in Play,
One way to portray,
Teach One, Teach All,
To Teach now the call. (TBS23/11/2012)

This short meditation was in response to a Christian that invite me back into the Christian Fold, I named it "Release the light".

An atom is split and releases a sun,
to put it back can not be done!
(TBSJan2013)


It was just after this that I found this prayer from Abdul'Baha

O my God! O my God! Thou seest me in my lowliness and weakness, occupied with the greatest undertaking, determined to raise Thy word among the masses and to spread Thy teachings among Thy peoples. How can I succeed unless Thou assist me with the breath of the Holy Spirit, help me to triumph by the hosts of Thy glorious kingdom, and shower upon me Thy confirmations, which alone can change a gnat into an eagle, a drop of water into rivers and seas, and an atom into lights and suns? O my Lord! Assist me with Thy triumphant and effective might, so that my tongue may utter Thy praises and attributes among all people and my soul overflow with the wine of Thy love and knowledge. Thou art the Omnipotent and the Doer of whatsoever Thou willest. —'Abdu'l-Bahá

That prayer I still pray and offer on to all, that the soul may release that Sun.

Regards Tony
 
iBrian said:
Point being that observation can often come long before actual evidence. So just because something is not currently accepted by academia doesn't mean to say it never will. :)
Click to expand...
Agreed. Moreover, didn't Eastern sages discover some truths first that quantum science and neuroscience are claiming now and classical physics is reeling from?
Consciousness shapes the world - observer effect?
All things are interdependent - quantum entanglement?
Self is illusion - default mode network?
Meditation changes the mind and body - fMRI studies and neuroplasticity?

Admittedly, they didn't research but did simply observe the world, physical and mental, we all live within.

In fairness, I will say that I believe truth is subjective. I see, you see, we all see a different sea. and so on. Take it all with a laff cos that's the best I can do in this reality...
 
Last edited:
Vasu Devan said:
It is kinda funny you have to admit. How you deny the validity of other religions while quoting from the Geeta as backup for your validity?
Click to expand...
Nothing funny here. Paramarthika is Paramarthika, and Vyavaharika is Vyavaharika.
When you see facts on ground, do not take refuge in philosophy.
It is 'leela' in Paramarthika, but the reality in Vyavaharika.
 
Aupmanyav said:
Nothing funny here. Paramarthika is Paramarthika, and Vyavaharika is Vyavaharika.
When you see facts on ground, do not take refuge in philosophy.
It is 'leela' in Paramarthika, but the reality in Vyavaharika.
Click to expand...
Oh sure sure. Without actual experience of Paramarthika, Vyavaharika seems to be the only option. The difference is known only to those knowing Paramarthika, my child. Bless you.
 
Aupmanyav said:
:) When the evidence comes, acceptance also will come. No problem with that.
Click to expand...
Evidence is here but many followers of science cannot accept. Physics itself is schisming between the classical and the quantum teachings. The brain is divisive at any threat by default. For me at least, brain is a subset of mind. Prolly has to be from a survival standpoint.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top