Ethical Atheist vs believer in God

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Brain science has advanced very significantly with recent not invasive study techniques. Evolutionary processes are as obvious in these studies as anywhere else we look in biology. Your second paragraph hints to me you have either not looked or are sceptical of evolutionary theory. That surprises me.

What I mean is that there are fundamental questions science cannot answer because there are not the tools to measure - a simple example being the notion of what happened at the start of a "big bang" formation of the universe, which Hawking illustrated very well in A Brief History of Time and the example of time cones. Simply put, there is no information known to us as accessible to observe such a moment, therefore what happened at the start must remain conjecture.

What I find with both science and religion is that in their quest to provide more comprehensive answers, both end up stepping outside of their remit and boundaries, and make unsupportable assertions. I don't see a problem with belief systems examining themselves, but I see clear limitations in every area which lay outside of the reason of such systems.

I'm a scientist by training (well, I dropped out of a degree in chemistry to pursue to arts!), but while the education system would often try and brush aside fundamental unanswered questions, in order to make a particular theory palatable for general consumption, my best teachers always encouraged me to question. There's nothing like reading New Scientist while following a curriculum to realise just how limited the subject being studied is. :)

I don't have a problem at all with evolution - I personally think it's irrefutable - but I think philosophically speaking there is just too high an incidence of order in the universe for the process to be caused by chance and random acts - there remains an underlying process engineering how life will change to necessary environmental stimuli. And while I don't subscribe to a religious belief in how the universe or life formed, I think mathematics and chaos theory show clear patterns underlying existence which defy chance. All energy is subject to entropy, and yet there is a process at work in existence that actively fights against that.

While religion will try and answer fundamental philosophical questions within their own languages, I think the results will always remain limited by social and personal axioms - similarly, scientific method as a tool can only accept/reject hypotheses based on quantitative data, and fundamental questions of existence do not allow for such data. Hence at some point the individual must take a "leap of faith" in whichever direction most suits their world view.

2c. :)
 



@ Tao



Why do you talk philosophical and political thinking when it is self evident that they are nothing to do with studies of evolution in the social structures of social animals?

"philosophical and political thinking" ???

:confused:

I was talking about sociology actually. A discipline built from the ground up
to analyze "social animals" in groups. I thought you said you were familiar
with the "observational data"??


All the answers for human traits can be found in the way we developed as a social animal.
.... and sociology does exactly that.

so the ball is still in your court Tao.
 



@ Tao





"philosophical and political thinking" ???

:confused:

I was talking about sociology actually. A discipline built from the ground up
to analyze "social animals" in groups. I thought you said you were familiar
with the "observational data"??


.... and sociology does exactly that.

so the ball is still in your court Tao.
Maybe in your ego fuelled self serving and highly implausible arguments.....meanwhile answer me. You know as well as I do that you went off on your own tangent....come back and face le music.... put up or shut up as they say
 
What I mean is that there are fundamental questions science cannot answer because there are not the tools to measure - a simple example being the notion of what happened at the start of a "big bang" formation of the universe, which Hawking illustrated very well in A Brief History of Time and the example of time cones. Simply put, there is no information known to us as accessible to observe such a moment, therefore what happened at the start must remain conjecture.

What I find with both science and religion is that in their quest to provide more comprehensive answers, both end up stepping outside of their remit and boundaries, and make unsupportable assertions. I don't see a problem with belief systems examining themselves, but I see clear limitations in every area which lay outside of the reason of such systems.

I'm a scientist by training (well, I dropped out of a degree in chemistry to pursue to arts!), but while the education system would often try and brush aside fundamental unanswered questions, in order to make a particular theory palatable for general consumption, my best teachers always encouraged me to question. There's nothing like reading New Scientist while following a curriculum to realise just how limited the subject being studied is. :)

I don't have a problem at all with evolution - I personally think it's irrefutable - but I think philosophically speaking there is just too high an incidence of order in the universe for the process to be caused by chance and random acts - there remains an underlying process engineering how life will change to necessary environmental stimuli. And while I don't subscribe to a religious belief in how the universe or life formed, I think mathematics and chaos theory show clear patterns underlying existence which defy chance. All energy is subject to entropy, and yet there is a process at work in existence that actively fights against that.

While religion will try and answer fundamental philosophical questions within their own languages, I think the results will always remain limited by social and personal axioms - similarly, scientific method as a tool can only accept/reject hypotheses based on quantitative data, and fundamental questions of existence do not allow for such data. Hence at some point the individual must take a "leap of faith" in whichever direction most suits their world view.

2c. :)

Come on Brian. You quote me quite specificily.... yet use what obviously stirred you into a reply merely as a platform for your own spiel. You know that "all" the truths about human conciousness and the " social condition" are encompassed in these studies yet all you do is try to deflect into the meaningless gibberish of religion.... who are you trying to kid? I cannot believe its me.


The fartist formerly known as tao
 
@ Tao


Maybe in your ego fuelled self serving and highly implausible arguments.....meanwhile answer me. You know as well as I do that you went off on your own tangent....come back and face le music.... put up or shut up as they say

... nice try... no dice though.

Im still waiting for an actual response...
Let me remind you where you stand:
You made a completely unjustified statement.
Here it is again:

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus
It is not pre-supposition but masses of observational data on how social animals behave together. The evolution of these qualities is unambiguous.
I asked you to post this "observational data" here for all to see.
... where is it? You think the evolution of ethical systems is so
"unambiguous" ??? Then why is it that Durkenhiem, Marx and Weber
all came to contradictory conclusions when they tried to answer
this same question of how human morality and ethics developed?

These are of course rhetorical questions... because the answers
are all obvious and they completely invalidate your entire argument.

I wonder what what you will do now.... disappear into the wind
or try hoplessly to get in the last word pretending that will make up
for lost ground... neither would surprise me, as I have seen you do both.
 
趁熱打鐵

@ Tao




... nice try... no dice though.

Im still waiting for an actual response...
Let me remind you where you stand:
You made a completely unjustified statement.
Here it is again:

I asked you to post this "observational data" here for all to see.
... where is it? You think the evolution of ethical systems is so
"unambiguous" ??? Then why is it that Durkenhiem, Marx and Weber
all came to contradictory conclusions when they tried to answer
this same question of how human morality and ethics developed?

These are of course rhetorical questions... because the answers
are all obvious and they completely invalidate your entire argument.

I wonder what what you will do now.... disappear into the wind
or try hoplessly to get in the last word pretending that will make up
for some lost ground... neither would surprise me, as I have seen
you do both.


And I told you to wee off and do your own research. We, you excepted due to your recent arrival, have been through all this at length and I am not willing to do your legwork. I told you quite clearly to google for yourself if in doubt. No not the Koran buddy......google. You not heard of the good lord google [possessor] of all knowledge?

Thee olde archangel Gabriella hath thpoken tou mine thelf thith nite...
So harken thine ears to thoust wurds....spake by thine, and mine, archangel.....god is awol.
 
趁熱打鐵




And I told you to wee off and do your own research. We, you excepted due to your recent arrival, have been through all this at length and I am not willing to do your legwork. I told you quite clearly to google for yourself if in doubt. No not the Koran buddy......google. You not heard of the good lord google [possessor] of all knowledge?

Thee olde archangel Gabriella hath thpoken tou mine thelf thith nite...
So harken thine ears to thoust wurds....spake by thine, and mine, archangel.....god is awol.

I already directed you toward the work of Durkenhiem, Marx and Weber... what you have posted here so far besides your own spiel?
 
趁熱打


I already directed you toward the work of Durkenhiem, Marx and Weber... what you have posted here so far besides your own spiel?
I am finding your flaming rather tedious. Do you find look for yourself so difficult to understand? Durkheim, Marx and Webber, naive and virtually forgotten Victorian era thinkers. Yet I talk exclusively about contemporary field study centred biology....curious your tenacity in evasion.
 
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Durkheim, Marx and Webber, naive and virtually forgotten Victorian era thinkers. Yet I talk exclusively about contemporary field study biology....curious your tenacity in evasion.

You do realize that your using BIOLOGY to justify an argument which requires the analysis of evolved human SOCIAL structures rite??? And the funniest thing is.. when I challenge your assertion from the point of view of basic sociology... you say that I am diverting the issue...

LOL.... WoW !

that is just....

precious...

Keep it up Tao... this is just too good.
 
You do realize that your using BIOLOGY to justify an argument which requires the analysis of evolved human SOCIAL structures rite??? And the funniest thing is.. when I challenge your assertion from the point of view of basic sociology... you say that I am diverting the issue...

LOL.... WoW !

that is just....

precious...

Keep it up Tao... this is just too good.


......enjoy yourself ;););)
 
Am I really going to have to start dishing out infractions here?
 
Come on Brian. You quote me quite specificily.... yet use what obviously stirred you into a reply merely as a platform for your own spiel. You know that "all" the truths about human conciousness and the " social condition" are encompassed in these studies yet all you do is try to deflect into the meaningless gibberish of religion.... who are you trying to kid? I cannot believe its me.

Not quite sure what the problem is - you provided an opinion and asked about mine, so I replied.

Perhaps the disappointment is that you are trying to file me away as a religionist for easy targeting, and I'm not giving you that pleasure? :)
 
What I mean is that there are fundamental questions science cannot answer because there are not the tools to measure -

What I find with both science and religion is that in their quest to provide more comprehensive answers, both end up stepping outside of their remit and boundaries, and make unsupportable assertions. I don't see a problem with belief systems examining themselves, but I see clear limitations in every area which lay outside of the reason of such systems.

... while the education system would often try and brush aside fundamental unanswered questions, in order to make a particular theory palatable for general consumption, my best teachers always encouraged me to question.

I don't have a problem at all with evolution - I personally think it's irrefutable - but I think philosophically speaking there is just too high an incidence of order in the universe for the process to be caused by chance and random acts - there remains an underlying process engineering how life will change to necessary environmental stimuli. And while I don't subscribe to a religious belief in how the universe or life formed, I think mathematics and chaos theory show clear patterns underlying existence which defy chance. All energy is subject to entropy, and yet there is a process at work in existence that actively fights against that.

While religion will try and answer fundamental philosophical questions within their own languages, I think the results will always remain limited by social and personal axioms - similarly, scientific method as a tool can only accept/reject hypotheses based on quantitative data, and fundamental questions of existence do not allow for such data. Hence at some point the individual must take a "leap of faith" in whichever direction most suits their world view.

Classic! Thanks, Brian!

So Tao, apparently I'm not the only one...

... put up or shut up as they say

With all due respect, it is a basic tenet of debate, that the person making the claim must present the evidence. It is much more than just a bit facetious to make a claim and tell somebody else to verify it. That's just bogus.

So, until the unsubstantiated claim is validated with evidence, it is no more than hearsay.

***

BTW, should you have any interest, I think I figured out why you are having such trouble realizing the cave paintings for what they are. You are imposing modern social presumptions and electric museum lighting onto ancient socio-cultural contexts. The cave walls were not painted as decoration or graffiti. They were done by pre-literate societies (plural!) across a wide swath of geography, and they were typically done as a part of a context that contributed to metaphysical exploration (knowingly or unknowingly is irrelevent).

Sitting in the dark illuminated by no more than a campfire with these paintings on the surrounding walls, after having crawled through some rather tight tunnels in absolute darkness, possibly accompanied by some hypnotic music (drum / tom-tom and or flute), instructed by the revered and respected shaman, enhanced with the display of cave bear or other predatory animal relics displayed in ritualistic and respectful poses...and quite possibly enhanced with entheogenic hallucinogens to boot! How could this be anything but a religious experience???

No, the cave paintings were not the ancient equivalent of "Kilroy was here." Those paintings have more in common...for a pre-literate society...with the Bible, Koran, Vedas, Dhammas or any other sacred texts. The painted caves have more in common with the great Cathedrals, Mosques, Temples and other religious monuments than they have with an occupied hole in the ground. In fact, most painted caves are painted in areas the people did not commonly occupy, the communal areas were deliberately separate from the painted areas (the one exception that comes to mind is Cosquer).

This reverential treatment of nature extends beyond the paintings to the artifacts such as the Venus figures. I could ask "why?" the human forms ever found on cave walls or figurines are so stylized, either overly simplistic stick figures or over exaggerated human anatomy? I doubt I will get a comprehensive answer here that deals with the evidence without veering off into dismissal of uncomfortable actualizations...but these artists knew full well how to draw anatomically correct and *very* realistic animals, but they skimped when it came to artful rendition of other humans? Doesn't make any sense...if it is *only* decoration or graffiti. Yet it makes perfect sense when considered in a pseudo-religious manner.

But then, if you really are familiar with what the researchers in the various caves have to say about these things, then you already know what I have presented here and elsewhere about this is in accord with them. BTW, I've got almost a hundred pictures in my albums of cave paintings and prehistoric artifacts, and as I recall there are referential links attached to most of them. So validation is easily done for me, should that be an issue.

http://www.interfaith.org/forum/members/juantoo3-albums-cave-paintings.html

http://www.interfaith.org/forum/members/juantoo3-albums-cave-paintings-and-artifacts-2.html

Pedra roliça não cria bolor

Merry Christmas! :D
 
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Juan,

There is no actual evidence to prove that any cave painting had religious meaning. Such ideas stem simply from the prevalence of iconography in current paradigms being subjected on pre-history. I do not exclude the possibility that they did have some special significance in ritual but there is no way to prove that. And you surprise me with your insistence that it does.

Happy Christmas :)
 
There is no actual evidence to prove that any cave painting had religious meaning.

OK, using the same reasoning, what evidence do we have that any Grecian or Roman temple had any religious meaning?

Such ideas stem simply from the prevalence of iconography in current paradigms being subjected on pre-history.

Perhaps; the primary difference I see between us being that I am not so indiscriminately using Occam's Razor.

I do not exclude the possibility that they did have some special significance in ritual but there is no way to prove that.

What purpose does *any* ritual serve?...if not religious, then superstitious.

Feliz Navidad!
 


@ Tao



There is no actual evidence to prove that any cave painting had religious meaning.

Here are two entire books on the subject:


#1: Cave Paintings and the Human Spirit: The Origin of Creativity and BeliefDavid S. Whitley
http://www.borders.co.uk/book/cave-paintings-and-the-human-spirit-the-origin-of-creativity-and-belief/940232/

#2: Prehistoric cave paintings and religion: Palaeolithic man was an accomplished artist by Robert W Brockway (Author)
Prehistoric cave paintings and religion: Palaeolithic man was an accomplished artist (History. [Offprint]): Robert W Brockway: Amazon.co.uk: Books



And some quotes from various sources:


"The iconography of the paintings confirms several important hypotheses concerning basic concepts of Olmec religion; the cave itself was probably a shrine to water and fertility. Several pre-Hispanic textile fragments found in the cave are probably from a later culture period."
Olmec Cave Paintings: Discovery from Guerrero, Mexico -- Grove 164 (3878): 421 -- Science

"Like all Aboriginal art, cave and rock paintings are inseparable from the 50,000-year-old Aboriginal society and culture. Aboriginal people did not develop a written language but communicated their religion, laws and history through song, poetry, painting and carving."
studyingsocieties Early Human Cave Paintings and Religion


"Why do hunter-gatherers paint images of large animals on the walls of caves? The evidence of tribal societies in more recent times makes it certain that the purpose is not merely decorative. Religion and magic are the context, but no one knows the precise motive."

History of PAINTING


Commenting on the Cave Paintings found at the 30,000 year old cave
in France:

"I believe that the Genesis of Art is Religion. I don’t believe that these paintings were just a “one off” miracle of creativity. The beginnings of the long path of evolution that led up to these paintings must have been rooted in the ancient religion of Homo sapiens."

Chauvet Cave - The cave paintings and rock art of Chauvet


"The walls were decorated with coloured murals, repeatedly repainted after replastering, and some designs closely resembled the cave paintings of the Paleolithic Period. As a source of information about the activities, appearance, dress, and even religion of Neolithic peoples, these paintings are of great significance"
cave painting -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> INSTANT REPLAY::::

There is no actual evidence to prove that any cave painting had religious meaning.



epic_fail.jpg
 
OK, using the same reasoning, what evidence do we have that any Grecian or Roman temple had any religious meaning?
Written records.



Perhaps; the primary difference I see between us being that I am not so indiscriminately using Occam's Razor.
Just projecting your own wishful thinking.


What purpose does *any* ritual serve?...if not religious, then superstitious.
What has that got to do with it?


c0de,

Congratulations, you found me, you are like something I stepped in and cant scrape off my shoe.

Nice of you to post reviews of books you read from cover to cover. Never knew you were doing anthropology this year too. What does that bring it up to? 25? 26? courses you have done so far this year.

I know what these studies, (I have read many it being a favourite subject), say and I maintain that in the vast majority, in fact I know of no exception, of neolithic cave art there is absolutely no evidence at all to infer on them any ritual meaning. They could easily be just graffiti or art or markers. It is the overwhelming influence of religion in modern society that pushes people to assign them significance they are familiar with. There is no evidence to support it. It is all conjecture. Now if you had ever bothered to read on the subject, as opposed to quoting names, you would know that.
 
I know what these studies, (I have read many it being a favourite subject), say and I maintain that in the vast majority, in fact I know of no exception, of neolithic cave art there is absolutely no evidence at all to infer on them any ritual meaning. They could easily be just graffiti or art or markers. It is the overwhelming influence of religion in modern society that pushes people to assign them significance they are familiar with. There is no evidence to support it. It is all conjecture. Now if you had ever bothered to read on the subject, as opposed to quoting names, you would know that.

wait wait ......

I can't believe this...

Did you actually just tell me to take your word over ALL OF THESE SOURCES?


R O F L M A O !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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