Judas hero or traitor??

W

winner08

Well-Known Member
Messages
415
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Christianity teaches that Judas was the betrayer of Christ. But was he really?? Like most of the teachings of this religions it is possible it is false. Judas done what he done only through Christ. Christ allowed him to do what he done. If God know everything He must of known that Judas was going to betray Christ. I don't believe Judas went on his own and betrayed Christ I believe that Jesus told Judas this is what he must do and Judas being loyal to Jesus did it. Judas had to be a very strong person and believer in Christ to do what he did. I believe that Judas was chosen to do what he did. Chosen by Jesus to hand Him over. Of course through the yrs. the christian put their twist on the story and made Judas to be evil.

It would be wise to question all things in the christian religion. Any teachings that tells us God is All loving and mercifull, yet He will put you in a barbaque pit where you will be torture for all enterinty. Yet we must worship this god. We must pray to this god if not you will burn forever. Yet he loves us. yea right.
 
winner08 said:
Christ allowed him to do what he done. ....I don't believe Judas went on his own and betrayed Christ I believe that Jesus told Judas this is what he must do and Judas being loyal to Jesus did it. ...I believe that Judas was chosen to do what he did.
Click to expand...
I agree, Jesus instructed him to leave and do what he must. No betrayal there, following the directions of his leader. I believe however Judas did not know the whole story, he was ready for Jesus to rise up and take a physical throne as King/Messiah/Annointed, not a spiritual throne. Hence his remorse after the fact.
winner08 said:
It would be wise to question all things in the christian religion.
Click to expand...
I don't think 'the christian' is required in that sentence.
winner08 said:
Any teachings that tells us God is All loving and mercifull, yet He will put you in a barbaque pit where you will be torture for all enterinty. Yet we must worship this god. We must pray to this god if not you will burn forever. Yet he loves us. yea right.
Click to expand...
I also believe in the loving forgiving G!d. And I don't live with a G!d that is so vain, so weak to require my prayers, praise or worship. No ring or foot kissing, I believe Jesus broke that concept with the washing of each others feet. And to finish on topic, he also washed Judas's feet.
 
A man in his wisdom once said: "People are the purse of history".

Why did Judas betray? Why did Peter deny? Why did Thomas doubt? Why did Philip not understand? Why did Paul persecute?

Because that is the way the world is. What they did, we recognise in ourselves, because that is the way the world is. They did nothing 'otherwordly' before the Pentecost, and even after, they, and us, remain in their humanity.

So hero or villain? I don't know. But tragic? Absolutely. Tragic for him, and tragic for us, when we recognise ourselves in him.

"There, but for the Grace of God, go I."

Thomas
 
Thomas said:
A man in his wisdom once said: "People are the purse of history".

Why did Judas betray? Why did Peter deny? Why did Thomas doubt? Why did Philip not understand? Why did Paul persecute?

Because that is the way the world is. What they did, we recognise in ourselves, because that is the way the world is. They did nothing 'otherwordly' before the Pentecost, and even after, they, and us, remain in their humanity.

So hero or villain? I don't know. But tragic? Absolutely. Tragic for him, and tragic for us, when we recognise ourselves in him.

"There, but for the Grace of God, go I."

Thomas
Click to expand...

But Thomas that is the kicker. In Plato's cave we lack the grace of God. So all that you've described is in you and me as well including the dominating concern with appearance of the Pharisees Jesus referred to. To "Know thyself" is not to change it but rather to consciously experience it from a conscious human perspective. Change comes from the light allowing the experience.
 
Thomas said:
Why did Judas betray?
Click to expand...
Namaste Thomas,

I still don't see the betrayal. Judas, the treasurer, trusted with the money, Judas the Escariot, a zealot? ready for war? sword ready? His leader, his master, his lord, told him to go and do what he must.

He along with others was ready to see his king take over, he thought he was being clever, following the dictate of Jesus and getting 30 pieces of silver in the till in the bargain. Same reason the ear was lopped off, the rest were ready (if you don't have sword sell your clothes and get one) same reason they brought a cabal (600 men) to arrest him, everyone was prepped for a fight.

Jesus fight ended in the garden, and then full realization on the cross, Father, is this what you saved me for.
 
wil said:
I agree, Jesus instructed him to leave and do what he must. No betrayal there, following the directions of his leader. I believe however Judas did not know the whole story, he was ready for Jesus to rise up and take a physical throne as King/Messiah/Annointed, not a spiritual throne. Hence his remorse after the fact. I don't think 'the christian' is required in that sentence. I also believe in the loving forgiving G!d. And I don't live with a G!d that is so vain, so weak to require my prayers, praise or worship. No ring or foot kissing, I believe Jesus broke that concept with the washing of each others feet. And to finish on topic, he also washed Judas's feet.
Click to expand...

Yea your right there was no need to single out christian when questioning the truths Or false teachings they teach. I should have said all religions.

I agree also about Judas not knowing the whole story. Not knowing what was about to happen to Christ. He probable thought He would be punished but not put to death. what you say??

also like you said Judas thought as did all the disciples that Jesus would rise up and pverthrow the Romans. Man it must of been a real shock when Jesus died.
 
It isn't so much that Judas pointed Jesus out, but that he accused him. Without Judas, it might have been impossible for Jesus to be prosecuted for blasphemy. The Jewish system is one in which there is due process, and someone close to Jesus was needed to accuse him. Though this was a hanging and not a stoning, Judas is the one who 'Cast the first stone' at Jesus. In Moses law a false witness caught testifying against an innocent incurred that same punishment they would have caused. Poor Judas was accursed, since he had tried to accuse Jesus of blasphemy. That is why he was 'Doomed', and because of that he could no longer be an apostle of Jesus. It is also why some of the accounts have him being hanged. Keep in mind that instead of adding a thirteenth apostle, the eleven actually replaced Judas.
 
Thomas said:
A man in his wisdom once said: "People are the purse of history".

Why did Judas betray? Why did Peter deny? Why did Thomas doubt? Why did Philip not understand? Why did Paul persecute?

Because that is the way the world is. What they did, we recognise in ourselves, because that is the way the world is. They did nothing 'otherwordly' before the Pentecost, and even after, they, and us, remain in their humanity.

So hero or villain? I don't know. But tragic? Absolutely. Tragic for him, and tragic for us, when we recognise ourselves in him.

"There, but for the Grace of God, go I."

Thomas
Click to expand...

Thomas you said that it was tragic for him and us. Thomas i would have to disagree on that word tragic. First of all I (just me) believe that Judas will be very high up in Gods kingdom. I believe that Jesus chose Judas for that mission. I believe that Judas will be great in the kingdom. Saying that remember it is just my own opinion. It was God's plan from the beginning that His Son would died for our sins. Jesus was sent to save the world. It had to happen the way it did. I would say that it was Jesus purpose. To live, teach and die in the way He did. Everything happen in order, In God's order. Jesus had to died. This was the only outcome for Him. Jesus knew what His mission was from the beginning. Tragic, no. necessary yes. If not for Jesus death we would be up the creek without a paddle.
 
wil said:
Namaste Thomas,

I still don't see the betrayal. Judas, the treasurer, trusted with the money, Judas the Escariot, a zealot? ready for war? sword ready? His leader, his master, his lord, told him to go and do what he must.

He along with others was ready to see his king take over, he thought he was being clever, following the dictate of Jesus and getting 30 pieces of silver in the till in the bargain. Same reason the ear was lopped off, the rest were ready (if you don't have sword sell your clothes and get one) same reason they brought a cabal (600 men) to arrest him, everyone was prepped for a fight.

Jesus fight ended in the garden, and then full realization on the cross, Father, is this what you saved me for.
Click to expand...

I thought it was,"Father forgive them for they not know what they do"

I can just imagin what the disciples felt and thought when they realized that their Lord and Master was dead. Just as Jesus told them that they would abandon Him at the end. With Peter's denial and the rest of the disciples in hiding and fearing for their lives. Jesus proved that what He says will come to pass.
 
Dream said:
It isn't so much that Judas pointed Jesus out, but that he accused him. Without Judas, it might have been impossible for Jesus to be prosecuted for blasphemy. The Jewish system is one in which there is due process, and someone close to Jesus was needed to accuse him. Though this was a hanging and not a stoning, Judas is the one who 'Cast the first stone' at Jesus. In Moses law a false witness caught testifying against an innocent incurred that same punishment they would have caused. Poor Judas was accursed, since he had tried to accuse Jesus of blasphemy. That is why he was 'Doomed', and because of that he could no longer be an apostle of Jesus. It is also why some of the accounts have him being hanged. Keep in mind that instead of adding a thirteenth apostle, the eleven actually replaced Judas.
Click to expand...


Sorry Dream you are so worng on your statement that Judas had tried to accuse Jesus of Blasphemy. Your said that someone close to Jesus had to accuse Jesus. Wrong again. Your statements are nothing but your own opinion. You should try reading the Bible on this subjuct as I did and then state your remarks. This is how falshoods spreads. Here is the truth backed by scripture.

Matt26:59-60 Now the chief priest, the elders and all the council sought false testimony against Jeaus to put Him to death, but found NONE. But at last two false witnesses came forward and said, "This fellow said I am able to destroy the temple of God and to build it in three days.
nothing about judas accusing Jesus here.

two false witnesses not Judas.

Matt. 27:3-4 Judas His betrayer seeing that he (Jesus) had been condemned was remorseful and brought th silver back Saying I have sinned by betrayer of innocent blood. (This is why he killed himself) Not because he could no longer be an apostle I think he knew he was out of the circle when he gave Jesus up.

Matt 27:5 Then He threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed and went and hanged himself.

Matt 27:11 Now Jesus stood before the governor. and the governor asked Him saying "Are you the king of the Jews?

So you see Judas hanged himself before Jesus went before went in front of pilate. And the hight priest had two false witnesess to accuse Jesus of blasphemy. NO Judas.



It is the same in the rest of the Gospels. Judas was need to identifyJesus to the romans that was it He took no part in accusing Jesus of anything. Now if you can show me scripture to back up your statement that would be great.
But if not, you should not say these things. they are falsehoods, it can lead some astry.
 
Winner_08 said:
Now if you can show me scripture to back up your statement that would be great. But if not, you should not say these things. they are falsehoods, it can lead some astry.
Click to expand...
It doesn't surprise me that I'm being corrected about something, and I respect your zeal for truth. There is nothing wrong about being wrong and putting your opinion into an open forum. It doesn't lead people astray. What really leads people astray is something else. Besides, I have you to correct me when I make mistakes; and you have me.
 
Winner_08 said:
Matt26:59-60 Now the chief priest, the elders and all the council sought false testimony against Jeaus to put Him to death, but found NONE. But at last two false witnesses came forward and said, "This fellow said I am able to destroy the temple of God and to build it in three days.
nothing about judas accusing Jesus here.

two false witnesses not Judas.

Matt. 27:3-4 Judas His betrayer seeing that he (Jesus) had been condemned was remorseful and brought th silver back Saying I have sinned by betrayer of innocent blood. (This is why he killed himself) Not because he could no longer be an apostle I think he knew he was out of the circle when he gave Jesus up.

Matt 27:5 Then He threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed and went and hanged himself.

Matt 27:11 Now Jesus stood before the governor. and the governor asked Him saying "Are you the king of the Jews?

So you see Judas hanged himself before Jesus went before went in front of pilate. And the hight priest had two false witnesess to accuse Jesus of blasphemy. NO Judas.
Click to expand...
Ok, so he went and hanged himself. Here is what I am thinking: As a Zealot he must have been familiar with Scripture. Didn't he know that a hanging is for those who are accursed by God? It was not enough that a man be condemned to death, because he must also be made an example of God's displeasure to the entire nation. Those who were executed were hanged on trees to show that God did not approve of their actions. That is why they were called 'accursed'. Jesus was also hung upon a tree, but he was approved of God by his resurrection. Therefore the curse was reversed and fell upon the false witnesses, of whom Judas was the most important. It was not the two false witnesses they found who were called the 'betrayer of innocent blood' but Judas -- Judas who hanged himself (or fell headlong and exploded or both Acts chapter 1, Matthew 27:5). True, it seems Judas didn't go before Pilot; but Pilate was a mere formality. He was not Jewish.

Acts 1:25-26 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Deuteronomy 19:18-19 And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother; Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.

Deuteronomy 21:21-23 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.
 
wil said:
Namaste Thomas,

I still don't see the betrayal. Judas, the treasurer, trusted with the money, Judas the Escariot, a zealot? ready for war? sword ready? His leader, his master, his lord, told him to go and do what he must.

He along with others was ready to see his king take over, he thought he was being clever, following the dictate of Jesus and getting 30 pieces of silver in the till in the bargain. Same reason the ear was lopped off, the rest were ready (if you don't have sword sell your clothes and get one) same reason they brought a cabal (600 men) to arrest him, everyone was prepped for a fight.

Jesus fight ended in the garden, and then full realization on the cross, Father, is this what you saved me for.
Click to expand...
The "treasurer" was also a thief. His error was in assuming God would do what Judas wanted, when he wanted it.

Judas tried to play God (something we all do), and lost what he cherished most...his best friend and mentor...
 
Thomas said:
A man in his wisdom once said: "People are the purse of history".

Why did Judas betray? Why did Peter deny? Why did Thomas doubt? Why did Philip not understand? Why did Paul persecute?

Because that is the way the world is. What they did, we recognise in ourselves, because that is the way the world is. They did nothing 'otherwordly' before the Pentecost, and even after, they, and us, remain in their humanity.

So hero or villain? I don't know. But tragic? Absolutely. Tragic for him, and tragic for us, when we recognise ourselves in him.

"There, but for the Grace of God, go I."

Thomas
Click to expand...

Yours is a profound observation, Thomas.

I have heard it said that Judas did what he did in an attempt (in his own mind) to bring about Jesus' Messiahship *on earth*, but it backfired. I forget the details of how this was supposed to come about, but I do remember it being pointed out that there are a couple of versions of Judas' suicide, one version of which he obviously had some help... ;) In the Middle East I don't believe it was customary to disembowel oneself, yet Judas' bowels burst onto the field (while he was supposedly hanging?).

From this I have long thought Judas meant well (and certainly filled a role he was meant to play), but that he paid dearly for following his own path and trying to do things his own way.

As for whether or not Judas will rot in hell for eternity...I'll leave that up to
G-d. Treason, particularly of family and friends, is not to be viewed lightly. Yet, without the actions of Judas the whole stage would not have been set for Jesus' execution and subsequent resurrection.

That Judas was chosen to fill the role he played is something of an honor, a dubious one perhaps, but just the same we remember his name almost as well as we remember that of Jesus himself.
 
winner08 said:
Christianity teaches that Judas was the betrayer of Christ. But was he really?? Like most of the teachings of this religions it is possible it is false. Judas done what he done only through Christ. Christ allowed him to do what he done. If God know everything He must of known that Judas was going to betray Christ. I don't believe Judas went on his own and betrayed Christ I believe that Jesus told Judas this is what he must do and Judas being loyal to Jesus did it. Judas had to be a very strong person and believer in Christ to do what he did. I believe that Judas was chosen to do what he did. Chosen by Jesus to hand Him over. Of course through the yrs. the christian put their twist on the story and made Judas to be evil.

It would be wise to question all things in the christian religion. Any teachings that tells us God is All loving and mercifull, yet He will put you in a barbaque pit where you will be torture for all enterinty. Yet we must worship this god. We must pray to this god if not you will burn forever. Yet he loves us. yea right.
Click to expand...

LOL. Are you in love with Judas, and what planet are you from? :)

You sure did a lot of deep thinking on the subject.
Ultimately spreading Christian love (even to Judas).

While I understand your point on skepticism about old literature, I don`t think it would be too wise to question a lot of things in the bible, although you make it very clear that you enjoy it.

If you didn`t know, I think you should know that the bible was put together by a handful of Christian authorities on orders of a Roman emperor.

You really cracked me up with this one though :D
I look forward to hearing more about your adventures.
 
We all have the hero and betrayer in us. Judas is not a hero in this story. To say that God wanted or even commanded Judas to betray Jesus, or that Jesus gave him his marching orders or consent, is to say that God is really a puppetmaster and a cruel one at that.

The only way I can see out of that conclusion is that you believe both that God was demanding a sacrifice for atonement and that God can and will override our free will.
 
lunamoth said:
We all have the hero and betrayer in us. Judas is not a hero in this story. To say that God wanted or even commanded Judas to betray Jesus, or that Jesus gave him his marching orders or consent, is to say that God is really a puppetmaster and a cruel one at that.

The only way I can see out of that conclusion is that you believe both that God was demanding a sacrifice for atonement and that God can and will override our free will.
Click to expand...

Quite the conundrum.

Yet, how would Judas be able to perfectly time the event to G-d's plan?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top