Why is it so diffucult to see the truth. Why is it so hard to look these mistranslations up in a concordence. every word in the bible is in any concordence and has the orginial word and what it means. as in Hell-hades, sheol. or forever and ever or eternity -aion ages. If one would look these words up for themselves instead of taking them on faith that this is what you were taught, that through the genrations this is what they were taught and so this is what you belive. Just like santa clause. when you were a baby you believe in santa toothfairy, easter bunny and what ever else. when one gets older he finds out there is no such things. Just as now one need to check this stuff out and see what is true and false. Hey do not take my word for it I know your not. look it up check it out. do the right thing. I know most or afarid that i might be right. If I am right then you will be suprised. Just think knowing your loved one are not in some hell burning your mom or dad brothers and sisters grandmothers and grandfathers. What a joy it would be to know that they are not in hell. Now if I am wrong then you have lost nothing. I have. What a joy it will be to know the truth. and the truth will make you free. Since I found out the truth I am very very happy. I know my family and friends even if they were non believers I know they are not in a hell burnning forever. I know that in the end they too will be save. Just as all of your family will. God will not loose one of His sheep. Just like Jesus said I will go get the one that strayed from the other99. Jesus said I will not loose one sheep. Check it out for yourselves.
Bad translations, Misinterpations add ons. What do we really know??
- Thread starter winner08
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Actually there are two terms, "sheol" and Hades. And I am quite familiar with both.
Hades (Greek for has many aspects to it, including Cerburus the Guard, the River Lethe, the River Styx, and lava flows, with meneses and other torturing spirits who coralled and tormented the unrighteous dead, while those of righteousness slept oblivious to everything. It is either considered the abode of all the dead in general, or a waiting place for the wicked awaiting judgement.
Sheol is the trash pit were the town's refuse and carcasses were dumped and burned, with the fire never going out because of the nature of smouldering coals banked and starved of most of the oxygen needed to complete the fire tetrahedrin. Besides the obvious trash, the fuel that maintained the fire was from the hydro carbon II (methane) and hydrogen sulfide gasses generated by decaying flesh, vegetation and other organics.
If one fell into Sheol (Hebrew for the Pit or grave), chances of survival were pretty slim. One either broke one's body, or burned or was overcome by the toxic gasses at the base of the pit. And there were of course the parasites and scavangers that lived in the pit.
Other terms for hell used in the original texts, are Gehenna (Hebrew), Tartaros (Greek), pharagga Ennom (Hebrew), Gehinnom (Aramaic) and Topoth (Aramaic for fire place, or place of fire and human sacrifice).
Being that Jesus spoke Aramaic, he most likely used "Topoth" or "Gehinnom" to describe the place of eternal torment to his followers. And they both mean misery, fire, torture and death.
Also, the concept of "hell" has been described 56 times in the OT and NT. The Dead Sea Scrolls get into detail about Belial and Hell:
“Be cursed without mercy because of the darkness of your deeds! Be damned in the shadowy place of everlasting fire!”
“And the visitation of all who walk in this spirit shall be a multitude of plagues by the hand of all the destroying angels, everlasting damnation by the avenging wrath of the fury of God, eternal torment and endless disgrace together with shameful extinction in the fire of the dark regions. The times of all their generations shall be spent in sorrowful mourning and in bitter misery and in calamities of darkness until they are destroyed without remnant or survivor.”
“Rise up, rise up, O God of Gods,
raise Thyself in mig{ht, King of Kings}! (4Q491)
May all the Sons of Darkness [scatter before Thee]
The light of Thy greatness [shall shine forth]
[on ‘go]ds’ and men.
It shall be like a fire burning
In the dark places of perdition;
It shall burn the sinners in the perdition of hell,
In an eternal blaze
…in all the eternal seasons” (War Scroll, Geza Vermes translation)
“And the gates [of Hell] shall open
[on all] the works of Vanity;
and the doors of the Pit shall close
on the conceivers of wickedness;
and the everlasting bars shall by bolted
on all the spirits of Naught” (Thanksgiving Hymn, Geza Vermes translation)
“…from your correction and you will establish yourselves to pronounce judgment ov[er…] and to see the faults of all the sinners of the ages…[to be cast] into the fire and the oceans and into all the cavities for…in the generations of truth.” (Testament of Qahat, 4Q542, Geza Vermes translation)
“…[and all the Sons] of Darkness will be dark. [For all the Sons of Light]…and by all their knowledge they will…and the Sons of Darkness will be burnt…For all folly and wicked[ness are dar]k, and all [pea]ce and truth are brigh[t].” (Testament of Amram, Geza Vermes translation)
These scrolls are in Aramaic, before the time of Christ. They are not translations, and they make no bones about "hell", and what it is like.
Likewise the "Pesheeta" or Aramaic Bible (over 1700 years old), also describes Gehinnom and Topoth as a burning place of torment, for the wicked, for ever.
You were mentioning something about man made doctrines...?
No matter how it is written, spoken, or translated, "hell" is a bad place that we do not want to end up in...
TheKhan
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Wouldn`t it be enough if hell was just a scary place for the realistic people.. apparently not according to y`all except for Wil.
If I was put in a room with all you guys in this discussion, I`d just have to stand up, step aside and practice my putting stoke at the corner of the room...
I can see Bishadi getting all rev`d up because Winner08 almost seems like a long lost relative or something, LOL btw, you guys are soul brothers. and its amusing to see you guys getting all hot on the topic.. pardon me
Do any of us speak Aramaic? Is it even possible to construct something like an original bible? Because I`d be really interested in seeing the English version of something that resembles something like the original scriptures, possibly written by the apostles ideally. I`ll eventually check this out if its possible. Heck I`ll even learn Aramaic if that were the case, because I`m also interested in the exact sounds Jesus said.
If I was put in a room with all you guys in this discussion, I`d just have to stand up, step aside and practice my putting stoke at the corner of the room...
I can see Bishadi getting all rev`d up because Winner08 almost seems like a long lost relative or something, LOL btw, you guys are soul brothers. and its amusing to see you guys getting all hot on the topic.. pardon me
Do any of us speak Aramaic? Is it even possible to construct something like an original bible? Because I`d be really interested in seeing the English version of something that resembles something like the original scriptures, possibly written by the apostles ideally. I`ll eventually check this out if its possible. Heck I`ll even learn Aramaic if that were the case, because I`m also interested in the exact sounds Jesus said.
There are four bibles written within 275 years of Jesus' life. They are the coptic, Chaldean, Aramaic, and of course the Greek/Hebrew/Latin.Wouldn`t it be enough if hell was just a scary place for the realistic people.. apparently not according to y`all except for Wil.
If I was put in a room with all you guys in this discussion, I`d just have to stand up, step aside and practice my putting stoke at the corner of the room...
I can see Bishadi getting all rev`d up because Winner08 almost seems like a long lost relative or something, LOL btw, you guys are soul brothers. and its amusing to see you guys getting all hot on the topic.. pardon me
Do any of us speak Aramaic? Is it even possible to construct something like an original bible? Because I`d be really interested in seeing the English version of something that resembles something like the original scriptures, possibly written by the apostles ideally. I`ll eventually check this out if its possible. Heck I`ll even learn Aramaic if that were the case, because I`m also interested in the exact sounds Jesus said.
They all say the same thing as the Dead Sea Scroll and the Hebrew Pentaguant...there is a hell, and it is for ever.
I would rather live my life the way it is suggested in the New Testament, and avoid the possiblity of going to such a place. It's not going to harm me or those around me, to do so. That is realistic...
TheKhan
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Thank you very much for the info, I`m assuming that there is something wrong with the Aramaic version, like its new Aramaic and not the same Aramaic Jesus spoke or something..
I`d also appreciate it if someone could tell me if its possible to get a copy of the Aramaic bible (or Chaldean) in ancient form? Do those copies exist around us regularly by any chance? (I`ll eventually look this up too)
Best regards,
TK
p.s. if it gives anybody any peace of mind, I think hell is just in our minds, for obvious personal reasons. its already our decision to live in hell or heaven even now.
M
mee
Guest
the hebrew word Sheol ,and the Greek word Hades both mean the same , it means MANKINDS COMMON GRAVE simple as that.
but religious leaders have taught much falsehood about HELL.
NOW THAT IS VERY BAD it is no wonder that false religion is near its end .
Hellfire teachings are offensive to the God of the bible .
Thats why Gods people are out of false religion . revelation18;4
yes Gods people are into the truth of the bible and what it REALLY teaches.
and yes Gods people are JEHOVAHS PEOPLE and they are his witnesses.
PSALM 83;18 Isiah 43;10
and they LISTEN to the voice of JESUS LUKE 9;35
So that makes them JEHOVAHS WITNESSES
And make no mistake about it they all feed from the hand of JESUS MATTHEW 24;45-47
And what is soooooo gooooood about it ,
there is no bad translation with them, and no add ons at all.
just good bible based words of truth.
they are into the TRUTH of the bible and what it REALLY teaches.
SEEK and you will find mee has ,and its a good place of concealment to be in ZEPHENIAH 2;2-3
but religious leaders have taught much falsehood about HELL.
NOW THAT IS VERY BAD
it is no wonder that false religion is near its end .Hellfire teachings are offensive to the God of the bible .
Thats why Gods people are out of false religion . revelation18;4
yes Gods people are into the truth of the bible and what it REALLY teaches.
and yes Gods people are JEHOVAHS PEOPLE and they are his witnesses.
PSALM 83;18 Isiah 43;10
and they LISTEN to the voice of JESUS LUKE 9;35
So that makes them JEHOVAHS WITNESSES
And make no mistake about it
they all feed from the hand of JESUS MATTHEW 24;45-47 And what is soooooo gooooood about it ,
there is no bad translation with them, and no add ons at all.
just good bible based words of truth.
they are into the TRUTH of the bible and what it REALLY teaches.
SEEK and you will find
mee has ,and its a good place of concealment to be in ZEPHENIAH 2;2-3the hebrew word Sheol ,and the Greek word Hades both mean the same , it means MANKINDS COMMON GRAVE simple as that.
but religious leaders have taught much falsehood about HELL.
NOW THAT IS VERY BAD
Hellfire teachings are offensive to the God of the bible .
Thats why Gods people are out of false religion . revelation18;4
yes Gods people are into the truth of the bible and what it REALLY teaches.
and yes Gods people are JEHOVAHS PEOPLE and they are his witnesses.
PSALM 83;18 Isiah 43;10
and they LISTEN to the voice of JESUS LUKE 9;35
So that makes them JEHOVAHS WITNESSES
And make no mistake about it
And what is soooooo gooooood about it ,
there is no bad translation with them, and no add ons at all.
just good bible based words of truth.
they are into the TRUTH of the bible and what it REALLY teaches.
SEEK and you will find
Hey mee where you been?
you so right. Hell is translated in the orignial greek manuscripts as hades. and you are correct. I looked up every text containing the word hell and looke up hell in strong's hebrew and greek dictionaries and they all heve the same meannings.
Hell-hades- properly unseen, that is hades or the place (state) of departed souls, grave, hell. strongs hebrew and the greek dictionaries. This is word for word. So yea grave or pit or hole. But it never has meant or Jesus ever meant hell to be or I should say hades a place where His Father will send non-believers for all eternity. Why do people insist on the latter. Do they get comfort in believeing that their love ones are burnning in hell?
The Aramaic Blog: O Father-Mother Birther of the Cosmos?! for some lord's prayer commentary.
and here is a link for the Lamsa Bible He's tried to translate from the original manuscripts..
bob x
Well-Known Member
No, he did not translate from any "original manuscripts". His particular hobby-horse was that the Aramaic translation of the New Testament (which was actually rather late) was the original.
bob x
Well-Known Member
This is extraordinarily garbled. I don't understand why you count "Greek/Hebrew/Latin" all as one, but the Coptic translation as something different; and "Chaldean" and "Aramaic" are not two different things ("Chaldean" is an old-fashioned term mistakenly used for "Aramaic", from the misapprehension that since "Daniel" is written in Aramaic, that must have been the language used in Babylonia or "Chaldea"; actually of course they had a very different language, into which the Bible was never translated).
The Dead Sea "Scrolls" (not "Scroll") are (aside from some manuscripts of the canonical Hebrew books) the writings of a dissident Jewish sect which expressed no particular viewpoint on hell or whether it was "forever".
And: "the Hebrew Pentaguant"??? You seem to have mashed together "Pentateuch" (Greek name for the five books from Genesis to Deuteronomy, in Hebrew called the "Torah") with "Septuagint" (early Greek translation).
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
I don't know that he suggests he copied from original manuscripts, more that he translated from the scripts written in the original Aramaic language that Jesus would have spoken, which supposedly was preserved by Armenian Christians.
What Lamsa *does* do is provide a wealth of insight into various figures of speech and colloqialisms that speakers of Aramaic would have been familiar with, the gist and nuance of which is lost in translation to English via Greek and Latin.
*That* is what I remember Lamsa's hobby-horse as being, hence the reason I include his translation in my library, right next to my other study Bibles.
No, there is nothing wrong with the Aramaic. It's just a dead language (like Latin). The Bible's I've seen are hundreds of years old, but still in use in Eastern Christian Churches that have services in Aramaic. I'll look around, however, the History channel has a series of episodes on these very bibles and languages. The Priests were quite open about the history of their little parts of Christianity (left alone by the big churches) lol, their books weren't subject to translations into other languages. So, I think if one cares to research, they may find Bibles that are pretty darn close to the way they were written orignally, just after Jesus' death and ressurection.
There are groups out their now finally translating the Pesheeta, for example, into english and other languages, and their cause is online. You might try "photos of the Pe s h i t ta bible in ancient form". And "Churches that have mass in Aramaic". The Chaldeans are still around, so you could try the same thing with that, as well as the Egyptian Coptic churches. Don't forget the Ethiopian churches as well... all pretty much left intact.
v/r
Q
In accordance with the Jehovah's Witnesses and their bible's translation...the hebrew word Sheol ,and the Greek word Hades both mean the same , it means MANKINDS COMMON GRAVE simple as that.
but religious leaders have taught much falsehood about HELL.
NOW THAT IS VERY BAD
Hellfire teachings are offensive to the God of the bible .
Thats why Gods people are out of false religion . revelation18;4
yes Gods people are into the truth of the bible and what it REALLY teaches.
and yes Gods people are JEHOVAHS PEOPLE and they are his witnesses.
PSALM 83;18 Isiah 43;10
and they LISTEN to the voice of JESUS LUKE 9;35
So that makes them JEHOVAHS WITNESSES
And make no mistake about it
And what is soooooo gooooood about it ,
there is no bad translation with them, and no add ons at all.
just good bible based words of truth.
they are into the TRUTH of the bible and what it REALLY teaches.
SEEK and you will find
But according to the Hebrew Pentatuch they do not mean the same thing, nor do they mean the same thing in Aramaic.
That's why folks are trying to get to the original script so they can see for themselves (which is good since they will have to learn a bit about the original languages in order to satisfy their need to know).
They want the original, not a copy of a copy of a copy and so on.
Not quite accurate. Chaldean is not Aramaic (old Aramaic).
Yeah I screwed up the five Hebrew books, title (thinking along too many lines at once.
And I'm aware of the number of scrolls and jars that contained them, again, I was thinking faster than I could type.
Wouldn`t it be enough if hell was just a scary place for the realistic people.. apparently not according to y`all except for Wil.
If I was put in a room with all you guys in this discussion, I`d just have to stand up, step aside and practice my putting stoke at the corner of the room...
I can see Bishadi getting all rev`d up because Winner08 almost seems like a long lost relative or something, LOL btw, you guys are soul brothers. and its amusing to see you guys getting all hot on the topic.. pardon me
Do any of us speak Aramaic? Is it even possible to construct something like an original bible? Because I`d be really interested in seeing the English version of something that resembles something like the original scriptures, possibly written by the apostles ideally. I`ll eventually check this out if its possible. Heck I`ll even learn Aramaic if that were the case, because I`m also interested in the exact sounds Jesus said.
OK whats wrong with having a soul brother? I am I mistaken it saying that the original manuscripts of the New Testemant were written in Greek. And that the word Hell is translated in the orginial manuscript in Greek as hades. And Hades is never once meant (physical place) where God will send non believers to burn and be torture for ever for all eternity. Wouldn't this be an example of a bad translation. A terribe translation that has had a terrible effect on peoples beliefs. I mean instead of fear and dread of thinking about ones family burnning in hell. How about love. love and mercy the true God has. A God that judges with mercy and love. That no ones family members are burnning in a hell. Is not this great news. Hey like I said If I am right, everbody wins no one is burnning. If I am wrong then I be there burnning with alot of others.
TheKhan
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Thanks y`all on the ancient information.
Chaldean somehow sounds really familiar. I wonder who put the bells in churches sometimes..
Nothing. If I attacked you, Bishadi would be climbing my back so I`d refrain any further comment on this .. LOL on, LOL again.. You are funny guy.
I see your point. You`re against any kind of hellfire preaching, that somewhat contradicts the fundamental teachings of Christ.
A good question might be to ask, then should hellfire and the entire concept be deleted from the scriptures?? As there is a good chance that it was added later on. I think this was all intended to raise heads for those Christians who have no clue about Christianity, btw.
TK
Chaldean somehow sounds really familiar. I wonder who put the bells in churches sometimes..
Nothing. If I attacked you, Bishadi would be climbing my back so I`d refrain any further comment on this .. LOL on, LOL again..
You are funny guy.I see your point. You`re against any kind of hellfire preaching, that somewhat contradicts the fundamental teachings of Christ.
A good question might be to ask, then should hellfire and the entire concept be deleted from the scriptures?? As there is a good chance that it was added later on. I think this was all intended to raise heads for those Christians who have no clue about Christianity, btw.
TK
Marsh
Disagreeable By Nature
Marsh
Disagreeable By Nature
I think you hit it right on, Winner. Even the biggest *******s of the OT didn't end up in the Hell of pop-culture; they just "slept with their fathers" like everyone else up until Jesus opened the way to Heaven. People assume that if there is a Heaven there must be a Hell, but I have read the Bible through many times and I've never seen any support for the idea that Satan rules over a place called Hell right now, and that "bad" people go there when they die. Hell is simply a big stick that religious authorities have used for centuries to keep people in line (the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom). However, a belief set without this kind of Hell is much more consistent with the teachings and person of Jesus Christ, who taught about love and forgave even the nastiest people.
And just think of the implications of how this single issue has affected and does affect Christian faith. How many people do you know who have objected to Christianity because, when you combine the concept of Hell with Jesus' claim that the path to God is through him, the conclusion is that non-Christians burn in Hell? All of the sudden that goes right out the window where it belongs, and we're left with a loving God who rescues people in this life, and in the next.
B
Bishadi
Guest
What's that you were saying to Winner about humility?
that humilty requires honesty and integrity...........
if someone claims a position of fact and cannot back it up, is not humble to not knowing.....
that is the difference between the o8 and a winner
existence only operates ONE way, the winner knows this and does the homework before making claims
and then if existence only works in a single pure form, and a person can represent that into the universal language, and it be true, then be certain, that knowledge is beyond any belief, science or 'accepted knowledge'...
then to further than and know what the various theologies have mentioned, then it is easy to see how to recognize the 'good guy' the whole of humanity is awaiting...
because then each can UNDERSTAND!
it is why the knowledge 'gives life'
it is why the 'name' is the last word
as the 'name' is the frame within the universal language (math) to define existence, pure to existence.....
TheKhan
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I should have known this, but when I saw this in words it struck me. I kind of always assumed that God ruled over Heaven and Hell if it existed. Maybe due to buddhism. How can a fallen angel rule over anything? Thats why I always think Christians give s*tan with a small-case "s" too much credit! Why not make him into a little guy, or at least nothing beyond what the top angels are to us. Our top angels don`t have kingdoms to rule(or maybe not).. but why should a fallen angel have his own domain?
Are Christians sure they are not surrendering power needlessly?
TK
p.s. in buddhism hell is managed by a legitimate entity much like a prison. And all the demons in hell work for the top guy who is like the commissioner, so buddhist hell is gruesome but the management is clean cut. Evil is nothing but small in buddhism, by no means is it worth idolizing, which I think should be the way it is. It`s ultimately all God`s creation isn`t it?