Suicide in the name of Religion

[Resigned]

The most recent suicide bombing / mass murder to make the MSM involved the splodin’ of Afghan policemen in the nascent state of Taliban’istan. This one was relatively low yield in comparison to other, more spectacular splodins' and I was curious to know what dynamic others may think cause these acts to be so closely tied to one particular politico-religious ideology.


Bomber in police uniform kills 21 Afghan policemen

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090202/ap_on_re_as/as_afghanistan

KANDAHAR, Afghanistan – A suicide bomber in a police uniform detonated his explosives inside a police training center in southern Afghanistan on Monday, killing 21 officers and wounding at least 20, officials said. The Taliban claimed responsibility.

I think these martyr-murderers have squelched the issue of self-preservation (via their religion, which deceives them via a promise that cannot ever be proven to exist, i.e., paradise) and they are very much aware that being blown to bits pretty much snaps off the light switch with no time to register the fact that one is in pain or dead (academic argument, that last bit). Without getting into a theistic brawl, it is this aspect of much theism, to successfully implant a goal without proof or evidence of any kind, that gives rise to the endless chain of death we humans are amazingly willing to inflict upon one another.



I don't really understand the level of a mind that claims to worship a god of mercy and justice and then condemns anyone who disagrees with them to torture and death. On the one hand, this fits in exactly with much religious doctrine; life tends to be cheap in the theistic philosophy, mainly because the adherent's believe that life continues after death, or it is replaceable by the various gods. It is ultimately, even if only on a subconscious level, alright to kill people, because you are either,

a) "sending them to a better place", or so goes the thinking, or,

b) you are doing gods will by splodin’ the “____” ß-(add condescending description of choice aimed at competing religionist) which is, after all, the way god wants it.

This is why the alleged "holy books" tend to be filled with violence and calls to wars. I long for the day when the priest, pastor, mullah, or rabbi gets up in the pulpit and reads aloud the verses in their holy books that applaud rape, murder, and pillage. Of course, most theologians won't read out those passages of their holy books in their sermons -- but you can!

 

[GlorytoGod]

I don't really understand the level of a mind that claims to worship a god of mercy and justice and then condemns anyone who disagrees with them to torture and death.

maybe its not God that they worship.

On the one hand, this fits in exactly with much religious doctrine; life tends to be cheap in the theistic philosophy, mainly because the adherent's believe that life continues after death, or it is replaceable by the various gods. It is ultimately, even if only on a subconscious level, alright to kill people, because you are either,

Perhaps you could enlighten as to just what this religious doctrine is that you are alluding to ?

This is why the alleged "holy books" tend to be filled with violence and calls to wars. I long for the day when the priest, pastor, mullah, or rabbi gets up in the pulpit and reads aloud the verses in their holy books that applaud rape, murder, and pillage. Of course, most theologians won't read out those passages of their holy books in their sermons -- but you can!

and maybe some particular quotes where these holy books call for war and violence ?

 

[farhan]

Its ugly,...... what is uglier is Afghanistan becoming a province of global fascist empire of Americanistan. And you with your utter ignorance of ground realities only serve as a foot soldier for this global fascist ideology of loot & slaughter (you can label it freedom & democracy if you want to).

 

[greymare]

now, that stated above is ugly.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Islamic schools, many directly funded by Americas good friends the Saudis, in the Taliban catchment are poor in actual education and heavy on the kind of by rote repetitiveness that induces a kind of psychosis. Just looking at the images of children in class reciting passages of the Koran with kow-towing prostrations reminds me vividly of the behaviour of many psychotics. And I think that is how these schools work, the do everything they can to induce a psychosis. Evidently you have to be mentally incapacitated, often naturally - the mentally deficient are a trojan of choice, to blow yourself to bits and the absolutism of Islam lends itself nicely to producing such a state of mind. Many passages in the Koran are isolated and used to demonstrate justification yet even the most moderate of Muslims dare not call for their removal, each word is sacrosanct. We see something of the way Muslims are taught to think in the highlighting of the member here that likes to extract arbitrary words here and there to twist and manipulate his own thought processes to confirm his own thoughts to himself regardless of what is actually written. A mind that has been so formed is impenetrable to logic or reason from beyond its own narrow feedback loop. Some people are naturally more radical than others but predominantly they are young men bursting with testosterone and frustrated beyond straight thinking. Promised a bevy of virgins, ironically a parody of *western promiscuity*, they spend so much despising/envying and their need to escape the entrapment of what is after all a caged existance becomes so profound, that that body pack of explosives becomes irrisistable.
But what is more curious then these children of the Madrasses of Pakistan and beyond is the westernised Muslim who has had the choice and chance to see the falicy but rather than reject it embraces it. Here again invariably it is young men, bursting with testosterone and the indignity of impotence to change the world to suit their chosen notions.
American partenership with Saudi actively promotes, and invests heavilly financially, in supporting Islamic extremism. They do so because they are run by super-rich clans who's greatest business investments are in the arms industries that profit so handsomly from all this conflict. And in keeping their respective peoples from looking at just how manipulated they really are.

 

[wil]

Yes, most Muslims contend that suicide bombers and the radical terrorists are not Muslim, they are not exhibiting the five pillars, not following the Koran.

Again, those that decry religion as the bain of society point to those that are not religious but political fanatics and pawns of political fanatics.

 

[Resigned]

Islamic schools, many directly funded by Americas good friends the Saudis, in the Taliban catchment are poor in actual education and heavy on the kind of by rote repetitiveness that induces a kind of psychosis. Just looking at the images of children in class reciting passages of the Koran with kow-towing prostrations reminds me vividly of the behaviour of many psychotics. And I think that is how these schools work, the do everything they can to induce a psychosis. Evidently you have to be mentally incapacitated, often naturally - the mentally deficient are a trojan of choice, to blow yourself to bits and the absolutism of Islam lends itself nicely to producing such a state of mind. Many passages in the Koran are isolated and used to demonstrate justification yet even the most moderate of Muslims dare not call for their removal, each word is sacrosanct. We see something of the way Muslims are taught to think in the highlighting of the member here that likes to extract arbitrary words here and there to twist and manipulate his own thought processes to confirm his own thoughts to himself regardless of what is actually written. A mind that has been so formed is impenetrable to logic or reason from beyond its own narrow feedback loop. Some people are naturally more radical than others but predominantly they are young men bursting with testosterone and frustrated beyond straight thinking. Promised a bevy of virgins, ironically a parody of *western promiscuity*, they spend so much despising/envying and their need to escape the entrapment of what is after all a caged existance becomes so profound, that that body pack of explosives becomes irrisistable.
But what is more curious then these children of the Madrasses of Pakistan and beyond is the westernised Muslim who has had the choice and chance to see the falicy but rather than reject it embraces it. Here again invariably it is young men, bursting with testosterone and the indignity of impotence to change the world to suit their chosen notions.
American partenership with Saudi actively promotes, and invests heavilly financially, in supporting Islamic extremism. They do so because they are run by super-rich clans who's greatest business investments are in the arms industries that profit so handsomly from all this conflict. And in keeping their respective peoples from looking at just how manipulated they really are.

Perception is everything, of course, but I've always understood martyrdom to be based on dying for "the cause" at the hands of others...not the self-inflicted variety.


There is honor accorded those who willingly lay down their lives in defense of country and honor...the ultimate sacrifice. I'd guess that's the mainstream opinion as well, at least in western societies, where I was raised and live.

Suicide on the other hand, is taught to be the "coward's way out" and, from the theists' points of view, the usurpation of god's role in taking something that isn't really "yours".

To commit suicide in a fashion that also takes the lives of innocents is, of course, abhorrent to most societies...except fundamentalist moslems.

While they certainly didn't invent suicide bombing as a tactic, moslem extremists are the ones saying these heinous crimes are legitimate, even honorable and praiseworthy, simply because they have changed the definition of suicide to martyrdom.



Degrees of perversion is something I find occasionally troublesome to deal with.

Is it somehow better, or less sick, if the enablers for suicide bombings recruit a middle aged man to go and detonate himself on a school bus? After all, the bomber in that case is an adult who knows only too well the results of his actions. He can visualize those lives rendered forever bittersweet by the loss of a beloved child. He can, and perhaps does, empathize with his targets. But he relishes the agony he is about to inflict.

The vicious bile that is spoon fed to children under the guise of "education" in the PA, for example, is the true source of this iniquity. Palestinian parents hold collective responsibility for this crime against their own offspring. It is no use expecting any law enforcement to step into the breach when you have allowed your child to be indoctrinated into the ideology of religiously sanctioned murder/suicide. And I fear they will find it impossible to turn back the clock on the most formative years of their children’s' lives. They have crafted a situation which demands that their young people must remain forever "walled off" from the rest of the world, because their savagery is only too clear.

 

[greymare]

Ummmmm, not defending suicided bombers...... but its not only the muslims who kill innocents.

 

[Resigned]

maybe its not God that they worship.

That would conflict with the statements made by those notable jihad superstars who, when issuing their video messages calling for the destruction of whatever entity is currently on the “most hated” list, close their threats with the “god willing” invocation.

You’ll get yours – a universally sustaining benediction that’s issued by the more excitable believers.

I don’t believe in any ultimate justice to be meted out by a god or gods. That’s ultimately unfair. Any crime I might commit in this realm is applicable only to other humans, thus, humans should be the arbiters of that justice.

Perhaps you could enlighten as to just what this religious doctrine is that you are alluding to ?



and maybe some particular quotes where these holy books call for war and violence ?

So God says to Abraham, in Gen. 19, "I'm going down to Sodom and wipe 'em out!" But Abraham's cousin Lot, who doesn't have a lick of sense, lives in Sodom. So Abraham begins to "dicker" with God: "God, if I can find 50 good men in Sodom, will you spare the place?" God replies, "Okay, if you can find 50, I'll spare the whole city." Abraham raises (or lowers) the ante: "Lord, how about 30? or 20? Lord, if I can find 10 good men, will you spare Sodom?" And God says, "Yes, I will spare the city for 10 men's sake." Alas, Abraham couldn't find even 10, so God delivered Abraham's kin and made Sodom look like Nagasaki. No, he didn't ultimately change the fate of Sodom; but he was willing to, if Abraham did a certain thing. He was willing to change his mind.

 

[Resigned]

Ummmmm, not defending suicided bombers...... but its not only the muslims who kill innocents.

That’s true. But the purpose of the thread was to explore suicide bombing.

I’ll offer that it’s fair and equitable to assign responsibility to those who chose a specific action, calculated to inflict as much damage and death as possible. It’s important to ask what motivates someone to drive a bomb laden car into a crowd of school children and destroy themselves while attempting to maim or destroy those innocent civilians. I suggest the answer to that question is:

1.) the religious convictions throbbing away and,

2.) Indoctrination in a belief that paradise awaits in the afterlife. The decision was taken consciously and with explicit calculation to bypass non-violence in their struggle. Many, many other peoples have desperate circumstances but do not resort to mass murder/suicide to try to alleviate them.

Individuals may act one way, and groups of them act another. This statistic doesn't take into consideration what the larger group approves of. Not all people have to actually commit a particular act to approve of it. I’m not likely to dismiss the motivations that compel the “tiny minority” to fly commercial airliners into buildings, to bomb bus and subway trains and to slaughter innocent people out for an evening’s meal at a restaurant. That sort of argumentation is merely an attempt to divest oneself of any responsibility from the consequences of the ideology.

 

[c0de]

That’s true. But the purpose of the thread was to explore suicide bombing.

If you were truly "exploring" the issue of suicide bombing, then you would
not have avoided exploring the greatest example of suicide bombing in history:
The Kamakazi pilots in WWII.

Seems you are more interested in attacking religion by using
suicide bombers as a launch platform...

I suggest the answer to that question is:

1.) the religious convictions throbbing away and,

2.) Indoctrination in a belief that paradise awaits in the afterlife. The decision was taken consciously and with explicit calculation to bypass non-violence in their struggle. Many, many other peoples have desperate circumstances but do not resort to mass murder/suicide to try to alleviate them.

Well, allow me to question your "suggestion" on the following grounds:


1) You have completely ignored the desperate circumstances that
these kids find themselves in. Whenever someone is desperate, he is
much more vulnerable to brainwashing by those offering any type of
an escape. So for all you know their prime motivation could
be a need to escape their material circumstances, not to further
their spiritual goals.

2) The idea that religious conviction is a prime motive is totally refuted
by the fact that Islam forbids suicide. So if these kids really were
spiritual mystics inspired by religious convictions, don't you think they
would have listened to the Quran over the word of their real worldly
masters?

3) The idea that only people who commit such acts are those who
are searching for 72 virgins in heaven (an idea which has nothing to
do with the Quran in the first place) is completely refuted by the
historical example of the Japanese WWII pilots. Those kamakazis had
no hope for any virgins waiting for them. I doubt many even believed
in a heaven. So then, what compelled them to commit suicide?
Certainly not any of these two suggestions that you suggested.

4) Religious conviction is an unquantified factor. You have no way
of actually measuring its influence on the subjects. So again,
for all you know, their prime motivation could be totally material.

5) Consider the influence of monetary gain for these kids. If they
commit such acts, they are promised that their families will be given
much wealth and status in their respective societies. Such bribes
are very attractive if your familly is under the threat of starvation
via unemployment.

And these points are just off the top of my head... if you persist in
these suggestions of yours, I am sure me and others here can easily come up
with more objections to your thesis.

Individuals may act one way, and groups of them act another. This statistic doesn't take into consideration what the larger group approves of. Not all people have to actually commit a particular act to approve of it. I’m not likely to dismiss the motivations that compel the “tiny minority” to fly commercial airliners into buildings, to bomb bus and subway trains and to slaughter innocent people out for an evening’s meal at a restaurant. That sort of argumentation is merely an attempt to divest oneself of any responsibility from the consequences of the ideology.

If you are truly concerned about the victims of these bombs
and are not just looking to use their victim hood to support your
anti-religious agenda, then I suggest that you start looking at the
deeper causes of the conflicts. Instead of just looking at the act of
suicide bombing, why not look at the MATERIALISTIC causes behind
them? Such as the political situations which create such desperate
circumstances?

We already touched on this subject before once, but you left our
previous discussion on this issue without giving a reply.
I am referring to the atheists refuted thread here.
I wonder if your going to finish what you start this time...

 

[GlorytoGod]

That would conflict with the statements made by those notable jihad superstars who, when issuing their video messages calling for the destruction of whatever entity is currently on the “most hated” list, close their threats with the “god willing” invocation.

Allah is not God.






So God says to Abraham, in Gen. 19, "I'm going down to Sodom and wipe 'em out!" But Abraham's cousin Lot, who doesn't have a lick of sense, lives in Sodom. So Abraham begins to "dicker" with God: "God, if I can find 50 good men in Sodom, will you spare the place?" God replies, "Okay, if you can find 50, I'll spare the whole city." Abraham raises (or lowers) the ante: "Lord, how about 30? or 20? Lord, if I can find 10 good men, will you spare Sodom?" And God says, "Yes, I will spare the city for 10 men's sake." Alas, Abraham couldn't find even 10, so God delivered Abraham's kin and made Sodom look like Nagasaki. No, he didn't ultimately change the fate of Sodom; but he was willing to, if Abraham did a certain thing. He was willing to change his mind. [/quote]

and maybe some particular quotes where these holy books call for war and violence ?

so where is the call for war and violence ? I think the deal Sodom was the judgment of God, not a call for war and violence amongst men.

 

[Resigned]

Allah is not God.

I honestly don't know where most people stand on that issue. I have heard contradictory claims from both camps.

So God says to Abraham, in Gen. 19, "I'm going down to Sodom and wipe 'em out!" But Abraham's cousin Lot, who doesn't have a lick of sense, lives in Sodom. So Abraham begins to "dicker" with God: "God, if I can find 50 good men in Sodom, will you spare the place?" God replies, "Okay, if you can find 50, I'll spare the whole city." Abraham raises (or lowers) the ante: "Lord, how about 30? or 20? Lord, if I can find 10 good men, will you spare Sodom?" And God says, "Yes, I will spare the city for 10 men's sake." Alas, Abraham couldn't find even 10, so God delivered Abraham's kin and made Sodom look like Nagasaki. No, he didn't ultimately change the fate of Sodom; but he was willing to, if Abraham did a certain thing. He was willing to change his mind.

so where is the call for war and violence ? I think the deal Sodom was the judgment of God, not a call for war and violence amongst men.[/quote]
I was referring to the more pedestrian or non-specific "kill'em all" kind of violence.

 

[GlorytoGod]

I was referring to the more pedestrian or non-specific "kill'em all" kind of violence.

You should try to read in context.

 

[iBrian]

There is honor accorded those who willingly lay down their lives in defense of country and honor...the ultimate sacrifice.

This is the contradiction, though, isn't it?

It's fine for people from the West to sacrifice themselves for even a political cause, but if anyone else sacrifices themselves against the West, it's "evil".

That's not to say that suicide bombings are in any way defensible, but I would also argue the actions and policies of the US and UK in Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan are equally reprehensible.

When the West makes such a point of shafting other people, to expect no reaction would be ignorance beyond measure.

In the meantime, observe while the next wave of suicide bombers prepares in Gaza after the slaughter there; see how long it takes for yet another Afghan wedding party to be hit with an airstrike; and observe how in Iraq the only priority for troops has been to secure the oil supplies.

The people who condemn the actions of these people when they react are are often very quiet at condemning civilian murder by their own side or interests.

In the meantime, there are plenty of political predators happy to coerce the naive into continuing conflict for their own ends.

2c.

 

[Resigned]

You should try to read in context.

Actually, I was. I happen to include such things as humanity-wiping global floods as suggestive of violence. Unless, of course, one chooses to redefine that as an act of justice and mercy.

 

[GlorytoGod]

Actually, I was. I happen to include such things as humanity-wiping global floods as suggestive of violence. Unless, of course, one chooses to redefine that as an act of justice and mercy.

perhaps you can explain the context of this particular scripture to me then please.

 

[Resigned]

perhaps you can explain the context of this particular scripture to me then please.

I don’t know that I could even hope to. In the context of a just,
loving father destroying his children because they were a disappointment
to him, the terms justice and loving tend to become a bit strident.

Although in context, we’re told that only Noah and his immediate family
survived the adventure cruise. In context, that means only Noah and his
immediate family were left to repopulate the earth. In context, that
suggests some implications regarding procreation that are… how shall we say... Kinda` creepy.

 

[GlorytoGod]

I don’t know that I could even hope to. In the context of a just,
loving father destroying his children because they were a disappointment
to him, the terms justice and loving tend to become a bit strident.

Although in context, we’re told that only Noah and his immediate family
survived the adventure cruise. In context, that means only Noah and his
immediate family were left to repopulate the earth. In context, that
suggests some implications regarding procreation that are… how shall we say... Kinda` creepy.

perhaps you could start by explaining the context of this particular scripture that you were originally talking about Gen 19 I think you said. I am interested to hear your view.

So God says to Abraham, in Gen. 19, "I'm going down to Sodom and wipe 'em out!" But Abraham's cousin Lot, who doesn't have a lick of sense, lives in Sodom. So Abraham begins to "dicker" with God: "God, if I can find 50 good men in Sodom, will you spare the place?" God replies, "Okay, if you can find 50, I'll spare the whole city." Abraham raises (or lowers) the ante: "Lord, how about 30? or 20? Lord, if I can find 10 good men, will you spare Sodom?" And God says, "Yes, I will spare the city for 10 men's sake." Alas, Abraham couldn't find even 10, so God delivered Abraham's kin and made Sodom look like Nagasaki. No, he didn't ultimately change the fate of Sodom; but he was willing to, if Abraham did a certain thing. He was willing to change his mind.

 

[c0de]

Allah is not God.

This a very offensive statement.
Not to mention: a false statement.



p.s. Mr. Resigned, you have some unanswered objections on your thread.