Fallen man or part of the plan??

winner08 said:
Well Marsh, I will get trashed on this but Yes God did create evil. as He created everything in the universe.Nothing was made that He did not make. This includes evil.quote]




Jehovah God never causes what is bad. Indeed, "far be it from the true God to act wickedly."—Job 34:10.

he has allowed humans to pursue a bad course. God’s reasons involve two issues:
his sovereignty..... and the integrity of humans.



He "felt hurt at his heart" when badness filled the earth in the days of Noah. (Genesis 6:5, 6)

Does God feel differently today? No, for he does not change. (Malachi 3:6)

He detests injustice and hates to see people suffer.

The Bible teaches that God will soon undo all the harm that has resulted from human rule and from the influence of the Devil. ....1 JOHN 5;19....DANIEL 2;44


Religious leaders misrepresent God when they say that the tragedies we experience are his will. On the contrary, Jehovah longs to end human suffering. "He cares for you," says 1 Peter 5:7.

That is what the Bible really teaches!


​
Many are surprised to learn what the Bible actually says about who rules the world. For example, 1 John 5:19 states: "The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one." Who is this wicked one?

Jesus Christ identified him as Satan the Devil, whom he called "the ruler of the world." (John 14:30)

Now, does that not make sense? Satan is cruel, deceptive, and hateful—traits that underlie much of the suffering that people experience.

Why, though, does God allow Satan to rule?

By seducing Adam and Eve into choosing independence from their Creator, in effect, Satan founded a family that was not truly independent but under his authority.


Influenced, knowingly or unknowingly, by their "father," the Devil, this family would choose its own goals and standards of conduct. (John 8:44)

But would that way of life bring them true freedom and lasting happiness?

Jehovah knew full well that it would not. Still, he allowed the rebels to pursue their independent course, for only in this way would the issues raised in Eden be fully settled for all time.


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winner08 said:
I asked this question at one time. I will ask it again. I am still having a hard time understanding what has been mention here many times. The fall of man. It has been said here on many occasions that the first man Adam had disobayed God and sined therefore fallen. My question has always been, If God is foreknowing. Knows the end from the beginning, then how is it that man had fallen in the first place. God should have known excactly what Adam and eve would do, before they even thought it. If God knew that they would sin before He even created them, then Adam and eve did excatlly what God had planed on them doing. Now If God is a god of all knowing and we can do things like disobey him without His knowing before hand, then he is not God. Does anybody here see this? I mean really. The God I believe in does know everything before hand. The God I believe in knew Adam and Eve would sin before they were even created. I believe this was and is part of God's plan for man. I don't believe anything we do suprises God. Throws God for a loop. Oh I didn't see that one comming. Got me there Adam! If Adam and Eve sined and God had no idea that they would do what they did, then God is not God.
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I think the fall is primarily the result of Eve desiring self will (control) over G-ds will. Adam and Eve were told (Commanded) not to partake of the tree of knowledge (Whether it was a literal tree, or figurative) The point is that Eve chose her own desire/will over G-d's own.

We cannot live the lives G-d desires for us when we choose self over Him. I believe He wants us to be happy, and joyful, and loving, etc. But, I also believe that we, as a species, needed to realize that we cannot be in control.

There is only one G-d, and we are not Him. When we choose our will over G-ds. It is likened to saying we know better than Him. When we act on our own desires, we ultimately suffer, or cause suffering in another. I believe the knowledge of evil is to place ourselves above G-d, choosing our desires over His own.

I think this was His plan from the beginning. All things were made for His sons rule, (If I'm not mistaken). Had we not disobeyed G-d, and chose self over Him, then we would have no need for His son, whom is to be our Lord. Nor would we know evil, and recognize that we cannot control things ourselves.

Christ knew very well the consequences of choosing self over G-d. "Not my will, but thy will be done" He knew that if He chose His will over G-ds that all men would be left to their own devices. Christ fulfilled His charge as a man, embracing G-ds Spirit within Him, and made a way for all people to be reconciled back to our Creator.

Love for G-d, and love for our neighbors is the resounding will of G-d, imo. When we choose G-ds will, we show our love for Him, but when we choose our own, our we and our neighbors suffer. (The big picture) It is Selflessness Vs. Selfishness. It is either G-d will, or our own, and history is quite telling of what happens when we choose self over G-d. [IMHO]

(G-d is Love)

GK
 
That wasn't his question... He didn't say if man makes a machine will it have free will... Stop dodging bullets.... lol The question is, one creates something, that creation is faulty... Who's to blame.... The creator screwed up royally.... He is to blame :)
 
Alex P said:
That wasn't his question... He didn't say if man makes a machine will it have free will... Stop dodging bullets.... lol The question is, one creates something, that creation is faulty... Who's to blame.... The creator screwed up royally.... He is to blame :)
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Is the machine us, or creation? Either way, I don't don't view either to be 'faulty'. I think evil is necessary for growth. Why complain about evil when we can use it to our advantage? (Not that you're complaining) It is part of becoming complete and lacking nothing. We need to experience certain things before we are able to realize that worthy of pursuit. [IMO]

Jas 1:2 Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds,
Jas 1:3 for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness.
Jas 1:4 And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

God allowed Adam & Eve the opportunity to become perfect. They were morally significant, and sinless, but not perfect - They were very good. With the introduction of evil, we have all been given the opportunity to be complete. (Knowing good & evil - 'Perfect')

Some may not like the way things are, but God has allowed us to know evil for our benefit. We could not truly know evil if we never experienced it first hand, correct? We could not be complete beings without this knowledge.

Adam and Eve chose to shoot for completeness; they chose knowledge over life. It had to be done - Evil is an necessary evil, and existing to benefit us as a species [IMO]

GK
 
Perhaps, but, I wasn't relating it to religion lol.... The Machine was a machine in his question, and he asked if it malfunctions/so faulty.... In this example the creator/inventor is at fault :p

And I guess to a degree aye, you cannot really make a fair comparision between his question and what he is suggesting....
 
Alex P said:
Perhaps, but, I wasn't relating it to religion lol.... The Machine was a machine in his question, and he asked if it malfunctions/so faulty.... In this example the creator/inventor is at fault :p

And I guess to a degree aye, you cannot really make a fair comparision between his question and what he is suggesting....
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LOL :p

I don't think it is a fair comparison at all ....
 
Dondi said:
I'm sorta on board with soliel on this point.

Adam and Eve could have frolocked in the fields of Eden indefinitely, but they wouldn't have learned much. How would God know if Adam and Eve are truly loving Him back with all of their heart.

Or look at it another way. Suppose you are a parent of a young child. And of course you love this child with all your heart. And so you give a warning to the child not to touch the hot electric stove because he will get burned. Well, the child looks at the stove and he sees it's not red hot, like when it is turned all the way up. So in his mind, he's very curious. The commandment not to touch the stove drove that curiousity. Is he going to touch it to see if Mom was right? Now Mom doesn't want to see him get burned. But one day when she's not looking, the kid goes and touches the stove. Of course, he ends up crying and in pain because he the tip of his index finger now has 2nd degree burns. Mom comforts the child and dresses his wound and give him a hug and kiss. Now the kid knows why Mom gave that warning, so his inclination is to obey.



But God didn't create us to be a machine. He created us to love.
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first of all A&E could not have frolocked in the garden forever. Second of all you can not compare what a human parent would do to what God the almighty would do. People do such a diservise to God when they put Him down to a human level. A human thought. You said How would God know if Adam and eve truly loved Him. WHAT? do you here what you said. How would God really know. I don't know about your God But my Gdd knows everything.
 
Gatekeeper said:
Is the machine us, or creation? Either way, I don't don't view either to be 'faulty'. I think evil is necessary for growth. Why complain about evil when we can use it to our advantage? (Not that you're complaining) It is part of becoming complete and lacking nothing. We need to experience certain things before we are able to realize that worthy of pursuit. [IMO]

Jas 1:2 Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds,
Jas 1:3 for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness.
Jas 1:4 And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

God allowed Adam & Eve the opportunity to become perfect. They were morally significant, and sinless, but not perfect - They were very good. With the introduction of evil, we have all been given the opportunity to be complete. (Knowing good & evil - 'Perfect')

Some may not like the way things are, but God has allowed us to know evil for our benefit. We could not truly know evil if we never experienced it first hand, correct? We could not be complete beings without this knowledge.

Adam and Eve chose to shoot for completeness; they chose knowledge over life. It had to be done - Evil is an necessary evil, and existing to benefit us as a species [IMO]

GK
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Gatekeeper where oh where does it say in the bible that Adam and eve were sinless?
 
mee said:
A machine does not have freewill
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I don't believe man has a free will. God works His will through us. Free will. a will without cause. a free will to choose without something or someone causeing you to choose that way. every choice one makes has a cause to it. something or someone causes the choice we make, therefore it is not free.
 
winner08 said:
I don't believe man has a free will. God works His will through us. Free will. a will without cause. a free will to choose without something or someone causeing you to choose that way. every choice one makes has a cause to it. something or someone causes the choice we make, therefore it is not free.
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Technically correct, Winner. But there's a distinction to be made in being motivated to make a choice (i.e. self-directed), and in making no choice at all (i.e. God directs you). A self-directed soul that chooses to do God's will is, I think, more rewarding than an automaton soul that God moves like a puppet.
 
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