Article: Athiest believes Africa needs God

[Dondi]

As an atheist, I truly believe Africa needs God

Before Christmas I returned, after 45 years, to the country that as a boy I knew as Nyasaland. Today it's Malawi, and The Times Christmas Appeal includes a small British charity working there. Pump Aid helps rural communities to install a simple pump, letting people keep their village wells sealed and clean. I went to see this work.
It inspired me, renewing my flagging faith in development charities. But travelling in Malawi refreshed another belief, too: one I've been trying to banish all my life, but an observation I've been unable to avoid since my African childhood. It confounds my ideological beliefs, stubbornly refuses to fit my world view, and has embarrassed my growing belief that there is no God.
Now a confirmed atheist, I've become convinced of the enormous contribution that Christian evangelism makes in Africa: sharply distinct from the work of secular NGOs, government projects and international aid efforts. These alone will not do. Education and training alone will not do. In Africa Christianity changes people's hearts. It brings a spiritual transformation. The rebirth is real. The change is good...

What do you think about the implications of introducing socialogical change along with humanitarian aid in undeveloped countries, rather than aid alone? Should we try and chance a society in order to induce positive change to their lifestyle, or should we leave their traditions and culture alone, even if it means stagnation?

 

[Paladin]

Hi Dondi,

As usual your oversized heart wants to bring the peace and charity you feel to everyone. Thats one of the things I like about you, but I fear it isn't always practicable. Societies and cultures rarely change much in the short term, and not at all when something new is seen as being foisted upon them, look at what happened in Iraq. Democracy is a level above the meme they operate under, which is still warlike, ethnocentric and theocentric.
If we looked at cultures using the Spiral Dynamics model we would see them at red-blue, while democracy would be orange-green.

 

[17th Angel]

As an atheist, I truly believe Africa needs God



What do you think about the implications of introducing socialogical change along with humanitarian aid in undeveloped countries, rather than aid alone? Should we try and chance a society in order to induce positive change to their lifestyle, or should we leave their traditions and culture alone, even if it means stagnation?

They don't need a god... They need man to stop being such a greedy materialistic bunch of gits....... Man could easily fix Africa... Yes, easily.... But it "cost money" and oh how we love our money... It is so pathetic I can do nothing but laugh....

 

[Dondi]

Hi Dondi,

As usual your oversized heart wants to bring the peace and charity you feel to everyone. Thats one of the things I like about you, but I fear it isn't always practicable. Societies and cultures rarely change much in the short term, and not at all when something new is seen as being foisted upon them, look at what happened in Iraq. Democracy is a level above the meme they operate under, which is still warlike, ethnocentric and theocentric.
If we looked at cultures using the Spiral Dynamics model we would see them at red-blue, while democracy would be orange-green.

I don't think you can compare this with the situation in Iraq. We went in there guns ablazing. Of course there are repercussions when you force the issue. But it's a difference atmosphere when what's peacably being done in the example in Africa.

Your wiki reference about Spiral Dynamics even points out that meme "refers to a core value system, acting as an organizing principle, which expresses itself through memes (self-propagating ideas, habits, or cultural practices) [emphasis mine]." The war in Iraq and the subsquent efforts to democracize wasn't something that was self-propagating with the tribal culture in Iraq. This is something that was overlooked in planning an exit strategy (if a plan was even in place in the start of the war). Did the people of Iraq want a democracy? Were they ready to endure a cultural change? Were the seeds planted and groundwork laid that would induce change? I think for the most part, the Iraq debacle is a result of poor planning. We didn't anticipate the resistance because we didn't understand the particularities of the Muslim culture and the demographics of the factions between the Muslim sect that live over there. And resistence is there because the extremists don't want us to win, don't want us to succeed.

On the otherhand, despite the continuing troubles we are having there, many people in Iraq are open to the democratic way. I think there are a lot of growing pains because they don't yet know how to run their country. Plus, if youy are only looking at the negativity of the resistence, you will tend to overlook what's going on behind the scenes as improvements in some of the intrastructure, education, and human rights are being changed. You forget that Iraq under Saddam was pretty harse.

In Africa, the meme is filtering into the mindset of the people on a grassroots level. And in doing so, has the potential to grow. Look at the Civil Rights movement in the 50s and 60s. MLK insisted that the peacable approach was the method to go, and he was right, even though violence was sufferred.

 

[Dondi]

They don't need a god... They need man to stop being such a greedy materialistic bunch of gits....... Man could easily fix Africa... Yes, easily.... But it "cost money" and oh how we love our money... It is so pathetic I can do nothing but laugh....

The author's point is that purely humanitarian efforts (i.e. hospitals, schools, basic substinance aid) are not bringing the social change needed to bring a paradigm change. That something more has to affect the "philisophical/spiritual framework".

How do you think Man can fix Africa?

 

[Paladin]

I don't think you can compare this with the situation in Iraq. We went in there guns ablazing. Of course there are repercussions when you force the issue. But it's a difference atmosphere when what's peacably being done in the example in Africa.

Your wiki reference about Spiral Dynamics even points out that meme "refers to a core value system, acting as an organizing principle, which expresses itself through memes (self-propagating ideas, habits, or cultural practices) [emphasis mine]." The war in Iraq and the subsquent efforts to democracize wasn't something that was self-propagating with the tribal culture in Iraq. This is something that was overlooked in planning an exit strategy (if a plan was even in place in the start of the war). Did the people of Iraq want a democracy? Were they ready to endure a cultural change? Were the seeds planted and groundwork laid that would induce change? I think for the most part, the Iraq debacle is a result of poor planning. We didn't anticipate the resistance because we didn't understand the particularities of the Muslim culture and the demographics of the factions between the Muslim sect that live over there. And resistence is there because the extremists don't want us to win, don't want us to succeed.

On the otherhand, despite the continuing troubles we are having there, many people in Iraq are open to the democratic way. I think there are a lot of growing pains because they don't yet know how to run their country. Plus, if youy are only looking at the negativity of the resistence, you will tend to overlook what's going on behind the scenes as improvements in some of the intrastructure, education, and human rights are being changed. You forget that Iraq under Saddam was pretty harse.

In Africa, the meme is filtering into the mindset of the people on a grassroots level. And in doing so, has the potential to grow. Look at the Civil Rights movement in the 50s and 60s. MLK insisted that the peacable approach was the method to go, and he was right, even though violence was sufferred.

You make a good point Dondi. Perhaps in Africa a wiser, gentler approach would be best. If I understand your point of view correctly we are talking about enlivening the currently held memes to grow over a period of years into something more egalitarian, peaceful, thoughtful and generally in line with the essential zeitgest of most religions?

 

[wil]

How do you think Man can fix Africa?

Who says Africa needs fixing?

My sister was in Benin for the peace corp...prior to colonization there were three tribes...the ones on the water, fishing, shipping, then ones in the flat land, and the ones in the mountain...they traded, the warred, they each had something the other thought they wanted...but for millenia they coexisted, each with their particular skill sets for their area...

the colonists came and drew lines in the sand and created three countries....vertically, perpendicular to the coast. Where there were three tribes horizontally parallel to the coast...Now all three countries contain all three tribes and the new boundaries are supposed to supercede the ancient lines...

Man fixed it.

She was there to fix it too. Her assignment was to teach and while there for two years, get a concrete block, tin roof school house built. At first she taught in the oustide open air, thatch roof area with benches...

So they built the school house..(long story) got it finished. But come rainy season, it was too loud in a tin roof to teach school, and most of the year too hot...so they moved back to the thatch roof.

If white man wants to fix Africa, they should move out.

 

[arthra]

Dondi wrote:

The author's point is that purely humanitarian efforts (i.e. hospitals, schools, basic substinance aid) are not bringing the social change needed to bring a paradigm change. That something more has to affect the "philisophical/spiritual framework".

Baha'is have been involved in Africa for quite a few years.

In South Africa since 1911 and even under apartheid, Baha'is had integrated meetings and provided a model of the oneness of humanity.

Since 1968 there was a rapid expansion of Baha'i communities in Sub saharan Africa.. There are educational and social and economic developement projects inspired by Baha'is in Africa.

The Unity Foundation has funded some of projects in Africa..

Projets - Unity Foundation - Organisation Non-Gouvernementale depuis 1991

Baha'is I think see the importance of both a humanitarian and spiritual appraoch to the issues in Africa.

- Art

 

[Dondi]

You make a good point Dondi. Perhaps in Africa a wiser, gentler approach would be best. If I understand your point of view correctly we are talking about enlivening the currently held memes to grow over a period of years into something more egalitarian, peaceful, thoughtful and generally in line with the essential zeitgest of most religions?

Yes, indeed, with a spirit of community.

 

[Dondi]

Who says Africa needs fixing?

My sister was in Benin for the peace corp...prior to colonization there were three tribes...the ones on the water, fishing, shipping, then ones in the flat land, and the ones in the mountain...they traded, the warred, they each had something the other thought they wanted...but for millenia they coexisted, each with their particular skill sets for their area...

the colonists came and drew lines in the sand and created three countries....vertically, perpendicular to the coast. Where there were three tribes horizontally parallel to the coast...Now all three countries contain all three tribes and the new boundaries are supposed to supercede the ancient lines...

Man fixed it.

She was there to fix it too. Her assignment was to teach and while there for two years, get a concrete block, tin roof school house built. At first she taught in the oustide open air, thatch roof area with benches...

So they built the school house..(long story) got it finished. But come rainy season, it was too loud in a tin roof to teach school, and most of the year too hot...so they moved back to the thatch roof.

If white man wants to fix Africa, they should move out.

I commend your sister for at least making an effort. You almost make it sound like her efforts were fruitless. Why didn't they just put some kind of material over the tin roof to buffer the sound?

 

[wil]

I commend your sister for at least making an effort. You almost make it sound like her efforts were fruitless. Why didn't they just put some kind of material over the tin roof to buffer the sound?

Because the buildig was unsuitable for the climate...And now for the rest of the story....Small country village...few hundred people. They have a town meeting with the elders and all discussing the Peace Corp project. The town decides to facilitate and approves her building it. So she provides the material list and says they have credit at whatever supply house in the next town 30 miles away... The next day all the women are giving her dirty looks..and she notices there are no men in town. They all left, walked (no cars in the village) to go get the supplies. A couple days later they come back up the road, carrying concrete blocks, mortar, cement, wood, tin, nails, etc...set the stuff down, stay the night and the next morning they are gone again...they kept making trips till they had all the material...incredible.

Our ways simply do not correlate to right and worthy everywhere in the world...heck, with the highest incarceration rate in the world...I find it funny we should think we can improve things elsewhere.

 

[Dondi]

Our ways simply do not correlate to right and worthy everywhere in the world...

And you are basing all this primarily on your sister's antedotal?

heck, with the highest incarceration rate in the world...I find it funny we should think we can improve things elsewhere.

Maybe we're just better at catching crooks than other countries.

 

[bob x]

Africa has never made it from ancient times to medieval times. It cannot make it to modern times in one leap, so introducing some medievalism, however backwards that would be in other places, would be a help in Africa.

 

[Dream]

Malawi made several failed attempts at finding a year-round agricultural solution for its region before coming up with its current success story. Once a small number of farms were successful with it, then others saw the possibilities. Like Malawi, most of Africa has diverse regional technical and political challenges that strangle its populations. One of the biggest things that holds back any innovation is the perception that something is too difficult or that it does not make a big enough difference. Remove those perceptions, and people make the effort.

Africa's animals, plants and weather are unlike most mechanized countries. Almost the entire African continent has rare and endangered species (like man eating ants); and there is pressure from various governments to preserve exotic species there. Most other mechanized regions have never faced such an obstacle to technological development. Europe got rid of its endangered man-eating bears and tigers early on, so not a problem for it. The only deadly creatures Europe still has are mosquitoes and smokers. USA is not much different. So what should an African farmer do when his main concerns are ranging elephants and wild zebras? 'Innovate!'

 

[citizenzen]

Should we try and chance a society in order to induce positive change to their lifestyle, or should we leave their traditions and culture alone, even if it means stagnation?

Can we please stop trying to dictate the progress of every culture different than ours?

40 years ago most people would not have bet that India and China would be poised to become the next superpowers.

Who knows where Africa will be in 100 or even 200 years? That's not stagnation. It's just progress at a pace that's too slow for you.

Let other people live their lives. Let other nations determine their course.

 

[wil]

And you are basing all this primarily on your sister's antedotal?

Maybe we're just better at catching crooks than other countries.

No our egocentric view is incredibly myopic. I think we are better at warehousing our societal ills instead of facing them.

Africa has never made it from ancient times to medieval times. It cannot make it to modern times in one leap, so introducing some medievalism, however backwards that would be in other places, would be a help in Africa.

lagos nigeria


capetown south africa...need more? Unlike you bob...

Can we please stop trying to dictate the progress of every culture different than ours?

40 years ago most people would not have bet that India and China would be poised to become the next superpowers.

Who knows where Africa will be in 100 or even 200 years? That's not stagnation. It's just progress at a pace that's too slow for you.

Let other people live their lives. Let other nations determine their course.

here here...

 

[wil]

Maybe we're just better at catching crooks than other countries.

Yeah, that's the ticket...check it out

The two judges who led the Luzerne County Court for the last seven years took $2.67 million in payoffs for helping a private juvenile detention center reap millions from county contracts, with one of the judges going so far as to sentence children to detention over the objections of juvenile probation officers to benefit the center, federal prosecutors alleged Monday

You know sending kids to juvie just about guarentees they'll learn a trade from the others...

 

[YO-ELEVEN-11]

Seems that the 3c's may be involved in Africa being "poor".
Christianity, commerce and civilisation. hmm...

 

[citizenzen]

Seems that the 3c's may be involved in Africa being "poor".
Christianity, commerce and civilisation. hmm...

4th 'c'... colonization
1st 'e'... exploitation

 

[YO-ELEVEN-11]

4th 'c'... colonization
1st 'e'... exploitation

yep..

I always thought that the bible said it would be hard for the rich man to enter into heaven. (or words to that effect..) If thats true, then Africa is on the winning end of the "salvation" situation.