The great beast

So, tell me,, this is an open invitiation... what exactly is this great beast that particularly 2 posters often refer too.........
go on...
Im all ears........
Oh, and in simple terms if you please. :D

I haven't a clue, greymare .... I never was much on the book of Revelation, so please forgive my ignorance on the subject. I'm less concerned about the beast referred to that book, and much more concerned with the one living inside of me.

"Beware of the dog"

GK
 
The thing is Grey, the beast has no real power because it is merely an intersubjective construct. In other words it is something we experience within ourselves but doesn't really exist in an objective sense.

Like most ideas it only has the power we give it.
I see what you mean. But I disagree with the implication that thoughts are illusory and lacking substance. I would say that they are attributes of the soul and that they have a karmic charge to them. To reduce sin to a psychosocial artifact is in effect to deny that spiritual energy and karmic matter are ontological realities.

My view of it is along the lines of Jainism, which suggests that karma is an actual material substance that has a lifespan and that, while active, directly interferes with attaining liberation. Different kinds of sin have different karmic densities and longevities and thus differentially influence the progress of the soul. Some are very heavy duty and cause long-term bondage.
 
ok,,, so who are the "minority willing to make the necessary efforts..?"
and how do we tell them from everyone else who thinks that they are "making the necessary efforts??"

It is hard to explain these things if you're not used to them. Paladin is right to suggest that we create the beast and give it its power. It isn't an objective reality.

Where Man should have a conscious contact with higher consciousness that helps Man's conscious evolution, it has been lost as a result of the fallen human condition. The result is that imagination feeds egotism and collectively creates the Great Beast that is society and takes the place of the potential God/Man connection.

Only a minority can come to experience how their potential individuality is being sacrificed to the Beast. But there are a minority that have acquired an inner awareness in what is being lost so strive to "awaken" so as to become more then a cell in the Beast.

We are asleep in Plato's cave so cannot experience what awakening is. This is why there are so many New Age practices that refer to awakening but without any real experience, just remains in imagination

I cannot get into this now but for those interested you can read the following article on the Beast

Simone Weil On Society and Solitude - Articles - House of Solitude - Hermitary

First notice how the Beast is described:

In an aphorism of "The Great Beast," Weil begins the transition from analyzing society to discovering a solution or antidote. Here her thoughts hearken to anthropological thinking circulating in the early twentieth century, which maintained that society is a project of individual relationships, a projection given life and meaning separate from those relationships, a projection to which power and thought and authority is renounced. This is not a renunciation to the fictional cooperative called "society" but to individuals as authorities, who then contrive the symbols, ploys, and coercive social structures. Anthropology called these "totems"--Weil does not use the term--which define God, religion, and the norms of society via the power of institutions to interpret and sanction.
According to Weil, the person's accession to society, the individual's renunciation of values to the collective as defined by a small group, is based on ignorance and fear, fear that without society (which is to say the state), people will collapse into crime and evil. The social and collective is seen as transcending individuals, as a supernatural entity from which nationalism and war is as normal as science, progress, and consumption. All of these evils are taking place simultaneously in a social context. The individual has probably never reflected on these issues at all, never acknowledged his or her degree of complicity in this system. But, say the apologist for the Great Beast, the individual need have no direct responsibility,
The collective is the object of all idolatry, this it is which chains us to the earth. In the case of avarice, gold is the social order. In the case of ambition, power is the social order.
Thus society itself is the Great Beast, not some particular product of society, not even the state, the mode of production, the capitalist class, or any other social product. The weight of humanity is a heavy and ponderous gravity, a force but a contrived force to which the individual remains oblivious.
As long as one accepts the "totem," and subordinates all values to the collective, the contrived dichotomy of good and evil will trap individuals in fear. But the solution to the dilemma Weil depicts is not Nietzsche's transcendence of morality but a simple perception of the nature of society, of the nature of the "Great Beast."
It is the social which throws the color of the absolute over the relative. The remedy is in the idea of relationship. Relationship breaks its way out of the social. It is the monopoly of the individual. Society is the cave. The way out is solitude.
Alluding to the allegory of the cave in Plato's Republic, where reality is seen second-hand as shadows on the wall rather than directly in the light of reality, Weil points to the compelling truth that everything people do or believe is based on a second-hand source: society. As long as individuals substitute society's view of reality for their own discoveries of reality -- so that the relationship to self, others, nature, and the universe is direct, immediate, intuitive, and accountable -- the individual will remain oppressed.
Conscience is deceived by the social. Our supplementary energy (imagination) is to a great extent taken up with the social. It has to be detached from it. That is the most difficult of detachments.
The most difficult of detachments , yet it can begin, not with action but with reflection.
Meditation on the social mechanism is in this respect a purification of the first importance. To contemplate the social is as good a way of detachment as to retire from the world. That is why I have not been wrong to rub shoulders with politics or society.
Weil was modest in this passage. Her activism was thorough-going. In 1930's France and Spain, she took breaks from teaching to work in factories, on farms, with labor unions, and to visit the front in the Spanish Civil War to learn first-hand the nature of society, power, and politics. She worked among the republican forces in Barcelona, and witnessed the atrocities against civilians. Later, she wrote to the Catholic writer Georges Bernanos, who witnessed the atrocities of the nationalists against civilians. Though Bernanos was a social conservative he and Weil came to share a similar revulsion to war and ideology. She wrote to him:
My own feeling was that when once a certain class of people has been placed by the temporal and spiritual authorities outside the ranks of those whole life has value, then nothing comes more naturally to men that murder. ... For the purpose [of the whole struggle] can only be defined in terms of the public good, of the welfare of men -- and men have become valueless. ... One sets out as a volunteer with the idea of sacrifice, and finds oneself in a war which resembles a war of mercenaries, only with much more cruelty and with less human respect for the enemy.
Of course, Weil's experience can be extrapolated to any modern war, with its contrived pretexts and goals. In this regard, her reflections in the thirties are prophetic. She added to Bernanos that she knew of no one else who had understood the ramifications of war on human morality. Such was the "rubbing of shoulders" she so modestly mentioned.
In the 1940's, Simone Weil returned to activism as a resistance member in England after exiling with her family from Vichy France through Casablanca to New York City. She was no armchair philosopher or writer but combined deep reflection with direct experience of the complexities of the world she analyzed. Weil witnessed evil on all sides and summarized it all as "the service of the false God, of the social Beast under whatever form it may be."

The point here is that for a person to become more then a cog in the wheel of the beast, they have to become psychologically capable of "detachment." It is a concept I've read both in Eastern traditions and in Esoteric Christianity.

A person has to be capable of "solitude." The article has a section on solitude which is difficult to explain to anyone unfamiliar with this basic idea of the contrast between the conscious individual and the cog in the wheel.
Impersonality is only reached by the practice of a form of attention which is rare in itself and impossible except in solitude, and not only physical but mental solitude. This is never achieved by those who think of themselves as members of a collectivity, as part of something which says "We."
Solitude is thus a separation for the sake of productivity or individual self-expression. But more importantly, solitude is permanent enough to both sever that sense of subordination to social groups and constructive enough to achieve a renunciation of ego, what Weil calls "impersonality."
Moreover, solitude has a moral and ethical component that the collectivity or group lacks, or, more specifically, cannot claim. To desire absolute good but then seek it in the world of externals fails because the world of externals is the realm of merely relative goods. Weil describes the problem in terms of how one relates to others, again summarized in a Platonic image already quoted above.
Relationship breaks its way out of the social. It is the monopoly of the individual. Society is the cave. The way out is solitude. ... To relate belongs to the solitary spirit. No crowd can conceive relationship: "This is good or bad in relation to..." "in so far as ..." That escapes the crowd. A crowd cannot add things together. One who is above social life returns to it when he wishes; not so one who is below. It is the same with everything.
Weil extrapolates her concept of solitude into the realm of the sacred. She concludes that just as everything sacred in the individual is impersonal, so society is its opposite: profane, idolatrous, the realm of falsity. Yet human beings live and work in this realm.
The collective is the object of all idolatry, this is which chains us to the earth. In the case of avarice, gold is of the social order. In the case of ambition: power is of the social order. Science and art are full of the social element also. And love? Love is more or less an exception: that is why we can go to God through love, not through avarice or ambition.
Solitude is not loneliness in this sense since people interact. Solitude here means sacrificing the dependence on and the ease of group think for developing the conscious mind which connects the above and below which I believe to be the next step in man's evolution. It is not easy and takes both the need for reality and the courage to experience it. Dreams and habits are easier and initially more satisfying and self justifying.

"A test of what is real is that it is hard and rough. Joys are found in it, not pleasure. What is pleasant belongs to dreams." Simone Weil
-- Gravity and Grace

This really is explaining what is meant by being "in the world but not of it."

Rather then me going on, I'm beat so I'm going to bed but invite you to consider what Shakespeare said: "To be or not to be, that is the question." Most are content to be part of the Beast. A minority wish "To Be" and for that they have to experience the methods of the Beast in themselves that deny us becoming ourselves and consciously connecting the higher with the lower within our common presence before being able to acquire freedom from it.
 
I see what you mean. But I disagree with the implication that thoughts are illusory and lacking substance. I would say that they are attributes of the soul and that they have a karmic charge to them. To reduce sin to a psychosocial artifact is in effect to deny that spiritual energy and karmic matter are ontological realities.

My view of it is along the lines of Jainism, which suggests that karma is an actual material substance that has a lifespan and that, while active, directly interferes with attaining liberation. Different kinds of sin have different karmic densities and longevities and thus differentially influence the progress of the soul. Some are very heavy duty and cause long-term bondage.
Karma is like the weak nuclear force and radioactive decay?
 
to have the understanding about the beasts in the book of revelation you would have to go to the channel that Jesus is revealing things too.



matthew24;45-47

A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place
revelation 1




those slaves are given insight and understanding indeed



And the ones having insight will shine like the brightness of the expanse; and those who are bringing the many to righteousness, like the stars to time indefinite, even forever.
daniel 12 ;3


the Author of the Holy Bible uses beasts to symbolize world powers



The wild beast comes out of “the sea,” which is a fitting symbol of the turbulent masses from which human government springs. (Isaiah 17:12, 13)


 
I see what you mean. But I disagree with the implication that thoughts are illusory and lacking substance. I would say that they are attributes of the soul and that they have a karmic charge to them.
Karma has charge and substance only because we give it charge and substance.

A Buddha still has events happen to him/her. Life still challenges them with trials and blesses them with gifts. Illness and old age still debilitate them. Death still is the end of their life.

But enlightenment ends karma and suffering because these moments are now seen as just moments, not connected to ones being, ones place in the cosmos, not tied to their self worth or soul... just moments.
 
Karma has charge and substance only because we give it charge and substance.

A Buddha still has events happen to him/her. Life still challenges them with trials and blesses them with gifts. Illness and old age still debilitate them. Death still is the end of their life.

But enlightenment ends karma and suffering because these moments are now seen as just moments, not connected to ones being, ones place in the cosmos, not tied to their self worth or soul... just moments.
My view of it is that the moments are no longer mine: they no longer reflect my own petty egoic intentions. Instead, they belong to my Creator, who is continually configuring my time-space realities.

Karma can be seen as interference. In Jainism we see explanations of how dense the interference can be.


Karma is like the weak nuclear force and radioactive decay?
Could be.
 
Isn't there a subtle dualism to the concept of Truth?


"From the first, not a thing is" - Hui Neng
 
Isn't there a subtle dualism to the concept of Truth?


"From the first, not a thing is" - Hui Neng
Like this?

There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true.
~Niels Bohr
 
Like this?
There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true.
~Niels Bohr





Oh yes, very much so. I have always loved that quote. :)

Within this relative world there are good and evil, truth and falsehoods, but ultimately there can only be that which is.

I know it sounds so terribly advaitic (sp?) but the understanding that is happening here, in this body/mind seems to accept no less.

( I'm keeping open on the whole thing though;) )
 
In Buddhism, that interference is entirely created in the mind, therefore illusion.

When you come to see how skilled you are in creating this interference assuring your place as a representative of the "Great Beast," it will be a step in the right direction
 
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