N
Nick_A
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True, but to become capable of distinguishing requires becoming open at the expense of the joyous feeling of self justification acquired through fighting windmills.
The great beast
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True, but to become capable of distinguishing requires becoming open at the expense of the joyous feeling of self justification acquired through fighting windmills.
Paladin
Purchased Bewilderment
You're right Nick, that was sarcastic and therefore I'm sorry about the tone. My expectation was that you would immediately see thatthere was a correlation between what I posted and what you had previously spoken of. Since you have offered just that alternative perspective now, can I surmise you could have framed it that way then? Having The expectation that you could have then probably isn't good of me either.
I responded in the way I did because it felt as if I was being herded into a specific response rather than an open one.
I like you Nick, but sometimes you tend to have a bull-in-the-chinashop way of communication that tends to make me bristle. I do of course own that reaction, but I don't think that asessment is far off the mark.
The model (if I may call it that) that you subscribe to is interesting and has many facets that correspond to other ideas and paths, but it is a model among many. It seems to me that you're agenda is to push this model as being superior to all others.
citizenzen
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Puhleaze! You do not have to apologize. Anybody who has the audacity to continually tell you what you're thinking and makes a hobby of putting thoughts in your head and words in your mouth deserves a little sarcasm.
N
Nick_A
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Just wait until you get married. This will be the norm and rather than being sarcastic, you will be appreciative.
citizenzen
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What would make you think that I'm not?
N
Nick_A
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I like you too. I know you are sincere in your beliefs.
The only herding I am concerned with is this ancient concept expressed both in Plato's cave analogy and the Buddhist parable of the Burning House. There are those that see the importance of leaving either the house or the cave and those that just seek to make cave life better for themselves.
The role of the bodhisattva is to help those wake up to the futility of cave life. I believe further that it is essential for the sake of the earth itself and all its creatures including man, that there be a sufficient conscious influence within it expressed through conscious individuality. Without it, I believe it is doomed. Naturally I support all efforts to develop conscious individuality: "To Be." It goes against the grain sometimes but to just be Mr. wonderful, would be meaningless as it pertains to recognition of the human condition.
We are in serious times where the influence of conscious individuality must serve to minimize the adverse effects of what technology makes us capable of such as destroying ourselves. There is no politically correct polite way to stress the importance of becoming aware of alternatives.
As part of a perennial tradition I've experienced the apparent wrath of a satguru. I say apparent because in reality it is not the case. These people wish to create free people and not slaves. If I value personal insult over understanding, I am useless. I've learned that the cause of insult is always within me. If I am willing to "know thyself" I must consciously experience where insult resides in me rather than blame another. As Simone said we have to be willing to annoy the Great Beast.
I am used to and respect this honest directness yet I can see if you're not used to it, it can be disconcerting.
The only model that is superior are the ones that further a person awakening to the restrictions of cave life in the context of human potential in a balanced fashion. They exist on the esoteric paths of all the ancient traditions initiating with a conscious source. I've seen the results of people getting involved with techniques for awakening at the exoteric level but in reality only wish to bolster their self esteem. I wouldn't wish some of the results I am aware of on my worst enemy.
Tell me honestly. Would you rather I just be Mr. Wonderful and say the usual cliches, or would you prefer sincerity even if it promotes a few growls?
In the meantime as a friendly gesture, we were referring to the soul. You might appreciate some of the insights as to "mirroring."
Reflections
citizenzen
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Personally I prefer honesty.
I'll dish out a few growls and take them too.
I see forums more like intellectual battlefields than lovefests.
I suppose there's still plenty of the beast in me.
N
Nick_A
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Many are like this. This struggle is the joy of chess. However the question becomes if this battlefied approach is profitable for those sharing in order to come to grips with higher reality - a quality of reality that Man is called to which is greater then ourselves. Then it is foolish to battle and essential to become able to mutually understand.
Paladin
Purchased Bewilderment
Actually, I see other possibilities than this.
citizenzen
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Fancy words coming from the man responsible for this post...
http://www.interfaith.org/forum/obamas-birth-certificate-9729.html#post185478
"higher reality"?
"quality of reality"?
I don't think you have a clue as what those words mean.
N
Nick_A
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We can have indications of these words but I agree they are beyond our experiential comprehension
You link to the BC discussion as it relates to the constitution. Let me ask you, have you ever considered what a real Man is? I don't mean a celebrated cog in a wheel but what a Man is? People don't normally ask this question and I've learned by experience that most define a man by secular societal standards.
I've come to accept the definition of a Man as one who is master of himself. For such a Man there is no contradiction between what belongs to Caesar and what belongs to God.
A Real Man that is master of himself has the soul capable to receive from above, God's world, and take the energy that is given and nourish the earth, Caesar's world, in order to contribute to its awakening. A real man then can assume any role to serve this purpose since such a person is not inhibited by convention or cultural concerns. Such a person has compassion for the human condition itself and serves as a connection between the higher and lower regardless of public opinion. We are not these men, I know I'm not, but we can at least intellectually grasp the potential and be humble enough to realize that we are not such men but yet recognize the potential.
Concern for the constitution is a concern for a means that protects freedom. It is a concern for the quality of Caesar's world. This is the world that connects yesterday with tomorrow. God's world is vertical to it in time. It is the recognition of the value of the conscious quality of "NOW" which connects us to a higher level of reality.
I simply support both the purpose of the constitution and the creation of "Men." I believe the world needs these very rare individuals far more then it can know.
citizenzen
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Yes Nick, I have.
Every man is a real man. Every man within the wide spectrum of "maleness" is a "real man".
I don't care if you are the master of yourself or the slave to everybody, every man is a real man, even if only for a brief and fleeting moment.
N
Nick_A
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Very politically correct and New Agey but without any awareness of "objective quality."
A broken clock is right two times a day but does that make it equal to a finely tuned functioning clock?
You don't know what a real man could be since you have no feel for what life for a man not inhibited by unwarranted fear and imagination, a man who functions as a conscious integrated whole of mind, body, and spirit could be like..
For those like me that have come to accept that though it is insulting to consider that the "Wretched Man" described by Paul is not a real Man, this humility is essential for enough men to need to awaken.
This is the effect of the Beast on collective humanity that comprises it. The living kernel of life within them that can become a living soul is starved out by the dominance of a lie.
The potential real man or "conscious" man recognizes this in himself and strives to become able to awaken to reality so as to nourish this healthy kernel of life within.
He is describing a real man; one no longer living as part of the Beast in Plato's cave. They are rare but humanity needs their influence for its evolution regardless of how much they are scorned.
Dream
Well-Known Member
When people start talking about the Beast, they might be talking about it like SG & Paladin - like a sort of principle in humanity. That is not everybody though. A lot of people think of it as a person or group. It usually comes down to what that person thinks about the book Revelation/Apocolypse. Revelation should be read and its storyline grasped. At the same time there's no point in trying to form an opinion about what it means until you learn everything else, particularly the OT (Old Treasure). The first theory you hear about Revelation and 'The Beast' will always sound the best (Until you hear the next one).
I've seen five major ways of interpreting Revelation. Futurist, Preterist, Continuous Historic, Catholic, and None_of_the_above. They all star different roles for the Beast! The Preterist point of view says that events in Revelation were complete by AD100 or so. Preterists somehow synch their view with the prophecy made by Jesus in Matthew 24. None_of_the_above's tend towards the gnostic spectrum. Early Protestants like Martin Luthor or Jonathan Edwards were mostly Continuous Historic, so they identified the symbols in Revelation with major historic events (and said the Beast was the RC). The Futurist perspective is the most popular nowadays and you can learn it easily by reading pop books about the rapture, like books called 'Fly Away' etc. A Futurist puts most of the symbolic events in Revelation in the future and takes a lot of the symbols in Revelation literally instead of symbolically. Tim LaHay is a futurist author, and he sees the beast more as a future super-powered Satanic person coming as a fake Jesus someday. Sunni Muslims have a similar concept in their religion, but I do not know if they get this from reading Revelation or not.
I've seen five major ways of interpreting Revelation. Futurist, Preterist, Continuous Historic, Catholic, and None_of_the_above. They all star different roles for the Beast! The Preterist point of view says that events in Revelation were complete by AD100 or so. Preterists somehow synch their view with the prophecy made by Jesus in Matthew 24. None_of_the_above's tend towards the gnostic spectrum. Early Protestants like Martin Luthor or Jonathan Edwards were mostly Continuous Historic, so they identified the symbols in Revelation with major historic events (and said the Beast was the RC). The Futurist perspective is the most popular nowadays and you can learn it easily by reading pop books about the rapture, like books called 'Fly Away' etc. A Futurist puts most of the symbolic events in Revelation in the future and takes a lot of the symbols in Revelation literally instead of symbolically. Tim LaHay is a futurist author, and he sees the beast more as a future super-powered Satanic person coming as a fake Jesus someday. Sunni Muslims have a similar concept in their religion, but I do not know if they get this from reading Revelation or not.
Revelation 22:7 said:
citizenzen
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I talk about like it's a steaming pile of crap. But I am in the minority here.
Being someone who appreciates Zen irreverence, I'm with your minority.
earl
N
Nick_A
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Being someone who appreciates Zen irreverence, I'm with your minority.
The Great Beast smiles his approval and relief. Reading these comments he knows his dominace in Plato's cave is assured. He has even condescended to buy a round of drinks for the house in appreciation.
He does have his good side. Just stay in line and don't cross him and you will get what you deserve.
Dream
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A lot of people equate caviar with crap, but it just depends upon whom you ask. I haven't tasted either one. These are the major known viewpoints on the Revelation. I think Nick falls into the Gnostic or the None_of_the_above spectrum. So do all of you Zenanthropist folk. I have made it so that even your interpretation of Revelation falls into one of my 5 categories.
citizenzen
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Just for the heck of it I Googled Zenanthropist and it came up blank. Then I found a few links for Zen Anthropic.
Is this your pic Dream?
If it is, I must say you're a mighty handsome man.
N
Nick_A
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But if the cave and the beast within it represent a fallen level of reality for Man artificially cut off from its connection to a higher conscious level of reality, then it can have only one meaning. All the other meanings will just be interpretations at our normal every day level of reality and we pick and choose which feels better for us normal for creating our own reality.