Why Judaism and Christianity reject Koran

[c0de]

DIB + Slave of Allah

Salaam peepz


@ DIB

Dont forget, brother, that you have admitted
that you overlooked that when Mary peace be upon her came to her tribe, she was carrying her child, which implies the literal interpretation of the story, and the direct succession of events.

Ah but new evidence has come to light!!! And by the way, I never admitted to a DIRECT succession of events, and as you will see, such an interpretation (as I already stated) is COMPLETELY illogical.

Okay, first of all, the words "carrying him" does not mean that Mary PBUH was carrying Jesus PBUH in her arms. Compare the verse 9:92 when the Prophet PBUH has to send back some companions who wanted to accompany the Muslims because he could not find for them any animals on which they could ride. Check out these words: "I cannot find that on which to carry you". So in this new light we can see that Mary PBUH brought Jesus PBUH to her people carrying him on a mule/horse, basically it means that Jesus PBUH came with her. The next words in the verse state the displeasure of the audience (the elders) who were shocked that this young man claimed greater authority then them.

Getting back to the "direct succession" argument. It is clear now that these events were not part of a direct succession because look at everything that has happened in the story:

#1: Mary PBUH recieves revelation of a boy (before she is even pregnant)
#2: Mary PBUH goes to a secluded place
#3: Mary PBUH gives birth
#4: Mary comes back to her tribe

According to you, all of this happened in something like 10 minutes!!!!!!! Which OBVIOUSLY makes no sense.

.The essence from the verses, brother, is that both the creation of Adam and the virgin birth of Jesus peace be upon them both were miraculous. The verses want to say: why do you wonder about the virgin birth of Jesus pubh, and you dont wonder about the creation of Adam?!

Tell me something sis: if that is what the verses "want to say" then why don't they actually say it? I don't see anything about a virgin birth in this verse. You know why? Because you are taking that verse out of context. The passage in which that verse is mentioned has nothing to do with the virgin birth but clearing Jesus PBUH of the false charges against him that he claimed to be divine and allowed people to worship him.

Also notice that the verse is clearly metaphorical:

"The similitude (metaphor)of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was."





@ Slave of Allah

Hi dear brother c0de,

Adam peace be upon him had no father and Jesus had no father, too.

I believe that Jesus was created from dust like Adam peace be upon both.

And both of them had the spirit from the breath of the spirit of Allah Glory be to Him.

[3:59] The example of Jesus, as far as GOD is concerned, is the same as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, "Be," and he was.


Best wishes,
Assalamu Alykum.

My dear brother, please notice that no where in the Quran does it say that Jesus PBUH had no father. That is just an interpretation.

Salaam/PeAcE

 

[dailogue is the best]

Salaam DIB

Alaykom salam, c0de.

Ah but new evidence has come to light!!! And by the way, I never admitted to a DIRECT succession of events, and as you will see, such an interpretation (as I already stated) is COMPLETELY illogical.

Yes, you never did. I said you admitted that you overlooked that Mary pbuh came to her tribe carrying her child.

Okay, first of all, the words "carrying him" does not mean that Mary PBUH was carrying Jesus PBUH in her arms. Compare the verse 9:92 when the Prophet PBUH has to send back some companions who wanted to accompany the Muslims because he could not find for them any animals on which they could ride. Check out these words: "I cannot find that on which to carry you". So in this new light we can see that Mary PBUH brought Jesus PBUH to her people carrying him on a mule/horse, basically it means that Jesus PBUH came with her. The next words in the verse state the displeasure of the audience (the elders) who were shocked that this young man claimed greater authority then them.

DEAD interpretation, brother. Simply because " to carry sth/sb on sth" is not the same as "to carry sth/sb". I carry an umbrella means I hold it myself, but I carry my umbrella on my bike means it is on the bike.

Then, the clear meaning of the verse is that Mary peace be upon him was carrying her child by herself when she came to her tribe.

Getting back to the "direct succession" argument. It is clear now that these events were not part of a direct succession because look at everything that has happened in the story:

#1: Mary PBUH recieves revelation of a boy (before she is even pregnant)
#2: Mary PBUH goes to a secluded place
#3: Mary PBUH gives birth
#4: Mary comes back to her tribe

According to you, all of this happened in something like 10 minutes!!!!!!! Which OBVIOUSLY makes no sense.

Well, brother, when I first talked with you about the virgin birth of Jesus peace be upon him, I didnt mean the direct succession of minutes. I meant the direct succession of natural pregnancy and giving birth. The interpretation of quick direct succession is of the prophet's cousin, and the outstanding learned companion: Ibn Abbass. The interpretation which I personally find no problem in accepting since it was all a miracle.

Tell me something sis: if that is what the verses "want to say" then why don't they actually say it? I don't see anything about a virgin birth in this verse. You know why? Because you are taking that verse out of context. The passage in which that verse is mentioned has nothing to do with the virgin birth but clearing Jesus PBUH of the false charges against him that he claimed to be divine and allowed people to worship him.

Also notice that the verse is clearly metaphorical:

"The similitude (metaphor)of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was."

Well, the fact that Quran did not state explicitly of the virgin birth of Jesus peace be upon him, it doesnt mean that he was not born via virgin birth.

Your interpretation that the purpose of the above verses is to clear Jesus pbuh from his claiming of divinity is not aproppriate. Why? Simply because the verse makes it clear that it compares creation, not anything else. "; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was." The comparison is about creation, not about claiming divinity, as the creation of Adam pbuh was miraculous as that of Jesus pbuh. The verse doesnt say anything about claiming divinity

Salaam/PeAcE

Alaykomsalam, and peace to you and yours

 

[17th Angel]

I thought we might go back to the OP topic, "Why Judaism and Christianity reject Koran?"

Here's a picture of Christianity "rejecting" the Koran:

It seems "rejection" takes many forms.

This is a thing that goes many ways... That one old bloke doesn't speak for every christian.... lol... Like the muslim sporting the all new spring fashion Islamic C4 jacket.... Doesn't speak for every muslim.....

And are you sure he is doing what you think he is doing? He might be blowing his nose? Or he might even be nibbling on it with comments such as "hmmm taste like chicken." and the other dude in the funky head dress is all like "oh noes! donts eats mai holy books!"

 

[c0de]

Salaam DIB

The comparison is about creation, not about claiming divinity, as the creation of Adam pbuh was miraculous as that of Jesus pbuh. The verse doesnt say anything about claiming divinity

The verse also doesn't say anything about the virgin birth. And those same words are used on other occasions in the Quran. When we observe their meaning in those verses, their "essence" becomes apparent:

"; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was."

God has used this term in other occasions to draw our attention to the creation of the heavens and the earth. Which means that the miracle is in the act of creation itself, not in the virgin birth. This is why evolution through Darwin's natural selection is still a miracle of God. This is why the Big Bang was a miracle as well. Natural processes are themselves miracles. That is the "essence" of that verse.

Well, the fact that Quran did not state explicitly of the virgin birth of Jesus peace be upon him, it doesnt mean that he was not born via virgin birth.

In other words: the whole argument is based on speculation/interpretation.

Well, brother, when I first talked with you about the virgin birth of Jesus peace be upon him, I didnt mean the direct succession of minutes. I meant the direct succession of natural pregnancy and giving birth. The interpretation of quick direct succession is of the prophet's cousin, and the outstanding learned companion: Ibn Abbass. The interpretation which I personally find no problem in accepting since it was all a miracle.

This means you are now admitting the possibility of the alternative argument. Because you are now considering allowing for the natural proccess to take place in their due time (because it is the only logical interpretations of these verses). Also, you admit that the direct succession of minutes comes from an interpretation, not from the words themselves.

DEAD interpretation, brother. Simply because " to carry sth/sb on sth" is not the same as "to carry sth/sb". I carry an umbrella means I hold it myself, but I carry my umbrella on my bike means it is on the bike.

Then, the clear meaning of the verse is that Mary peace be upon him was carrying her child by herself when she came to her tribe.

I will note this verse down and get a second opinion on the Arabic words inshAllah. In either case, this does not affect the core argument and is only a peripheral issue.


PeAcE

 

[dailogue is the best]

Salaam DIB

Alaykomsalaam, c0de

The verse also doesn't say anything about the virgin birth. And those same words are used on other occasions in the Quran. When we observe their meaning in those verses, their "essence" becomes apparent.
God has used this term in other occasions to draw our attention to the creation of the heavens and the earth. Which means that the miracle is in the act of creation itself, not in the virgin birth. This is why evolution through Darwin's natural selection is still a miracle of God. This is why the Big Bang was a miracle as well. Natural processes are themselves miracles. That is the "essence" of that verse.

Well, brother, I am following your argument step by step. Now, you admit that the "essence" of the verse is creation. Right? This is another admission.

So, why is the comparaison between the creation of Adam and Jesus peace be upon them in that verse?! Simply to present a more miraculous creation of man, which is that of Adam peace be upon him. If some cant accept the virgin birth of Jesus peace be upon him (and I dont mean you. I know that is possible for you), then what about the creation of Adam with no parents?

It is like the following verse: "[40:57] The creation of the heavens and the earth is even more awesome than the creation of the human being, but most people do not know."

Here also, God presents a more miraculous creation which is that of heavens and earth for those who argue about the creation of man.

The Quran answers our queries with stronger proofs of the same nature:

*Some argue about the virgin birth of Jesus pbuh, then what about the creation of Adam pbuh.

*Some argue about the creation of man, then what about the creation of heavens and earth

In other words: the whole argument is based on speculation/interpretation.

Well, brother, it is not a speculation/interpretation. How?! Well, I am gonna explain it. Look, if someone says that he has bioligical parents doesnt it mean that he was born via natural relationship?!! Of course, it means that he was born via natural realationship.

Now, we come to Mary pbuh. She says plainly:"How can I have a son, when no man has touched me; I have never been unchaste." What does this mean, brother? She has no husband. Your story that she has a husband next day is not acceptable as there are many obstacles stand in front of it:

*why then the angel Galbriel didnt tell her that God is going to bestow on you a husband, and then a child that would be a prophet?!!

*What was the use of frightening Mary pbuh by telling her that she was gonna have a child while she was still vrigin if she was going to marry as you hold?!

*the Quranic story shows a natural sequence of events as Mary pbuh came to her tribe carrying her child, and her tribe were really wondering about that as they knew she was not married.

There is no space for metaphor here, brother. As I told you before, I tried to make your argument live, but it faces many blocks that cant be removed. No way, brother.

Jesus pbuh was born via virgin birth is not a speculation. It is a fact.

This means you are now admitting the possibility of the alternative argument. Because you are now considering allowing for the natural proccess to take place in their due time (because it is the only logical interpretations of these verses). Also, you admit that the direct succession of minutes comes from an interpretation, not from the words themselves.

Well, brother. I cant admit the alternative argument which doesnt say of the virgin birth of Jesus pbuh. Yes, I may hold that Mary pbuh went into the natural process of giving birth of 9 months. And that I was believing in before hearing of Ibn Abass's interpretation. but I will never accept that Jesus pbuh was not born via virgin birth. The Quran makes it clear he was born via virgin birth.

I will note this verse down and get a second opinion on the Arabic words inshAllah. In either case, this does not affect the core argument and is only a peripheral issue.

Good luck, brother. You cant say that the meaning of the word doeant change anything because it then shows many things:

*Mary was not able to answer her tribe as she was ordered because she was puzzled how to explain it. She wasnt married.

*Jesus pbuh really spoke as he was in the crib. He defended his mother, and did not speak of any father.

Which all implies the virgin birth of Jesus peace be upon him.

PeAcE

PeAcE inside and outside now and forever

 

[c0de]

Salaam DIB

[/b]
Well, brother, I am following your argument step by step. Now, you admit that the "essence" of the verse is creation. Right? This is another admission.

So, why is the comparaison between the creation of Adam and Jesus peace be upon them in that verse?! Simply to present a more miraculous creation of man, which is that of Adam peace be upon him. If some cant accept the virgin birth of Jesus peace be upon him (and I dont mean you. I know that is possible for you), then what about the creation of Adam with no parents?

It is like the following verse: "[40:57] The creation of the heavens and the earth is even more awesome than the creation of the human being, but most people do not know."

Here also, God presents a more miraculous creation which is that of heavens and earth for those who argue about the creation of man.

The Quran answers our queries with stronger proofs of the same nature:

*Some argue about the virgin birth of Jesus pbuh, then what about the creation of Adam pbuh.

*Some argue about the creation of man, then what about the creation of heavens and earth

None of this answers the points raised in the last post sis.

but I will never accept that Jesus pbuh was not born via virgin birth. The Quran makes it clear he was born via virgin birth.

If it makes it so clear, then where is it stated?

Now, we come to Mary pbuh. She says plainly:"How can I have a son, when no man has touched me; I have never been unchaste." What does this mean, brother? She has no husband. Your story that she has a husband next day is not acceptable as there are many obstacles stand in front of it:

*why then the angel Galbriel didnt tell her that God is going to bestow on you a husband, and then a child that would be a prophet?!!

*What was the use of frightening Mary pbuh by telling her that she was gonna have a child while she was still vrigin if she was going to marry as you hold?!

*the Quranic story shows a natural sequence of events as Mary pbuh came to her tribe carrying her child, and her tribe were really wondering about that as they knew she was not married.

There is no space for metaphor here, brother. As I told you before, I tried to make your argument live, but it faces many blocks that cant be removed. No way, brother.

All of this has already been dealt with sis. This is all circumstantial and based on a rigid interpretation. You yourself admitted that you do not believe in the 10 minute interpretation on Ibn Abbass. You believe in a less rigid version of events, and I believe in an even lesser rigid and metaphorical interpretation.

Jesus pbuh was born via virgin birth is not a speculation. It is a fact.

A fact that is not present in the Quran???

Well, brother. I cant admit the alternative argument which doesnt say of the virgin birth of Jesus pbuh. Yes, I may hold that Mary pbuh went into the natural process of giving birth of 9 months.

Then you admit that "fa" does not mean right at the next second. Which means there is space in between the events for other NATURAL events to take place.

Good luck, brother. You cant say that the meaning of the word doeant change anything because it then shows many things:

*Mary was not able to answer her tribe as she was ordered because she was puzzled how to explain it. She wasnt married.

*Jesus pbuh really spoke as he was in the crib. He defended his mother, and did not speak of any father.

Which all implies the virgin birth of Jesus peace be upon him.

Exactly! It "implies" a virgin birth. Which is what I have been saying all along, there are only implications. Just as there are implications for the opposite interpretation. The biggest implication being that nowhere does the Quran actually state that Jesus PBUH was born via a virgin birth.


PeAcE sis

 

[dailogue is the best]

Salaam DIB
All of this has already been dealt with sis. This is all circumstantial and based on a rigid interpretation. You yourself admitted that you do not believe in the 10 minute interpretation on Ibn Abbass. You believe in a less rigid version of events, and I believe in an even lesser rigid and metaphorical interpretation.
PeAcE sis

Alaykomsalaam c0de,

I think we both make ourselves understood now, c0de. You conclude everything. (By the way,I dont say that I dont believe in Ibn Abass's interpretation. I am fully open to it.)

Peace forever,c0de

 

[c0de]

@ DIB

Now I'm sad... I was hoping you would bring your sugar-free Moroccan sweets sis... especially now that I am cutting back on my sugar intake...

 

[Bandit]

This is a thing that goes many ways... That one old bloke doesn't speak for every christian.... lol... Like the muslim sporting the all new spring fashion Islamic C4 jacket.... Doesn't speak for every muslim.....

And are you sure he is doing what you think he is doing? He might be blowing his nose? Or he might even be nibbling on it with comments such as "hmmm taste like chicken." and the other dude in the funky head dress is all like "oh noes! donts eats mai holy books!"

ROFL! I will remember that the next time I see them kissing the legs and hands of all those statues they make and of course the other funky head dress when they all kiss the pshtorah as well! How to say...Don't eat my holy book in...

 

[dailogue is the best]

@ DIB

Now I'm sad... I was hoping you would bring your sugar-free Moroccan sweets sis... especially now that I am cutting back on my sugar intake...

Dont frown, brother

Now, that you are cutting back on your sugar intake, I will bring my full sugar Moroccan sweets....

By the way, what is the ocassion for such a hope!!!

 

[17th Angel]

How to say...Don't eat my holy book in...

*giggles*

لايأكلهايكتابيمقدّسة

 

[dailogue is the best]

*giggles*

لايأكلهايكتابيمقدّسة

hhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...Good job, Alex.


Correction: لا تأكل كتابي المقدس
Result: 8/10.....

Decision: you pass with distinction

 

[c0de]

By the way, what is the ocassion for such a hope!!!

err... occasion??? hmmm didn't you hear? Its... a... the Holy... day of.... a... Distributing Sweets! Yea, thats right... Holy Sweet Day! Its my favourite holiday sis. Check you calendar... i'm sure its listed.

 

[dailogue is the best]

err... occasion??? hmmm didn't you hear? Its... a... the Holy... day of.... a... Distributing Sweets! Yea, thats right... Holy Sweet Day! Its my favourite holiday sis. Check you calendar... i'm sure its listed.

oh! brother, sorry for disappointing you. Yet, we dont celebrate such holiday in Morocco. That's why my calendar is bitter.hhhhhhh

Happy Sweet Day, c0de...with my best wishes of sweet life

 

[17th Angel]

hhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...Good job, Alex.


Correction: لا تأكل كتابي المقدس
Result: 8/10.....

Decision: you pass with distinction

lol, thanks *prints and puts on wall.*

 

[Out There]

Why Judaism and Christianity reject the KoranQuote



There has been many discussions by Jews and Christians regarding the Koran. In recent times there has been an emphasis on Koran and violence and Koran and freedom and Koran and women. Although I have dealt with the issue of violence and freedom in my other posts, I will talk about another issue which I think is absolutely crucial in understanding why the Jews and Christians can never accept the Koran. There are of cource many other reasons why people question the Koran, and certainly in the history and current reality of many adherents of the so called Islamic faith do raise issues regarding frredom and women and violence. But my main concern is about these two religious traditions and why the real issues that seperate them from the Koran are rarely highlited.

Though these two religions reject each other and are odds with one another but they do have one thing in common regarding the Koran. My purpose here is to explain the role of Jesus in shaping the attitude these two religioons have regarding the Koran.

Those who pay attention can notice that there is constant attempt by Christians, and here I mean the orthodoxy, to paint Islam as somehow different from either Christianity or even Judaism. Muhammad is never compared with any of the prophets you read in the Bible. There is always an attempt even to distance themselves from the God of the Koran. The reality is these differences they try to propagate are fakes. Because the real difference and point of contention between the Koran and these two religions is on what they believe about Jesus and what the Koran says about Jesus. Both these religious traditions could never accept the Jesus reality as presented in the Koran. Once again these are not the only issues, but as a Koranist who does not confirm to Sunni/Shia sectarianism, my intention is to highlight their rejection of the Koran. I will show how regardless of any other issues, the Jesus of the Koran stand in stark contradiction to the central theological core of these two faiths, Judaism and Christianity as practiced and understood by the orthodoxies.

The Koran says it came to confirm the previous scriptures:

5.46. And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear God.

"It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong)," (3:3).

2.41 And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.

2.89 And when there comes to them a Book from God, confirming what is with them,- although from of old they had prayed for victory against those without Faith,- when there comes to them that which they (should) have recognized, they refuse to believe in it but the curse of God is on those without Faith.

If the Koran came to confirm the Torah and Gospel and speaks of them as Divine revelations, why would both the Jews and Christians have a serious problem with the Koran? The answer is Jesus.

The Christian orthodoxy is built around the divinity of Jesus, and the Jewsih orthodoxy is built on the awaiting of the Messiah and their rejection of Jesus as the Messiah and indeed of his miraculous birth. Although these are not the only issues the orthodoxies are structured around, without them the orthodoxy can not maintain itself as it is.

So what does the Koran say about Jesus?

When the angel said, "Mary, God gives you a good tidings of a Word from Him whose name is messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, -high honoured shall he be in this world and the next, near stationed to God. He shall speak to men in the cradle, and of age, and righteous he shall be, "lord" said Mary "How shall I have a son, seeing no mortal has touched me? "Even so, he said "God creates what He will". When he decrees a thing He but say to it, "Be", and it is. (Al-Imran 3:45-47)

"Then she brought the child to her folk, carrying him, and they said, "Mary, you have surely committed a monstrous thing. Sister of Aaron, your father was not a wicked man, nor your mother a woman unchaste. Mary pointed to the child; but they said, 'Hoe shall we speak to one who still in the cradle, a little child. And he said, 'Lo, I am God's servant, God has given me the Book and made me a Prophet Blessed He has made me ,wherever/may be; and He has enjoined me to prayer, and to give the alms so long as I live, and likewise to cherish my mother; He has not made me arrogant and wicked. Peace be upon me, the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I am raised up alive. "Maryam 19:29-33)

5.110.Then will God say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'

This will be absolutely rejected by the Jewish Rabbis. This not only confirms the miraculous birth of Jesus but also confirms he was the awaited messiah as promised in the Hebrew Bible. The Jews rejected Jesus and still do and these verses alone are more than enough to convince the Judaic orthodoxy to reject the Koran outright. Nothing stands against the Judaic orthodoxy more than these verses.

As far as the Christian orthodoxy:


"And they say, The All-Merciful has taken unto Himself a son. You have indeed advanced something hideous. As if the skies are about to burst, the earth to split asunder and its mountain to fall down in the utter ruin for that they have attributed to the All-merciful a son; and behaves not the All-merciful to take a son. None there in the heavens and earth but comes to the All-Merciful as a servant" (Maryam 19:88-93)

Truly the likeness of Jesus, in God's sight is as Adam's likeness; He created him of dust, then He said upon him, 'Be' and he was. (Al-Imran 3:59)

People of the Book, do not go beyond the bounds in your religion, and say nought as to God but the Truth. The messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only the messenger of God, and his word that he committed to Mary, and a spirit originating from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not 'Three'. Refrain, better is for you. God is only one God. Glory be to him-that He should have a son! To Him belongs all that is in the Heavens and in the Earth; God suffices for a guardian.(4.171)

This is of course in stark contrast and indeed a denounciation of the Christian orthodoxy which is structured on the divinity of Jesus and the Trinity. These verses alone completely nullifies that orthodoxy in its core theological understanding.

So both these religions can not accept that Jesus was the awaited Messiah born of a miraculous nature but yet human and completely unassociated physically with the Almighty. Yet these issues are never discussed and distractions are usually presented. of course these are not the only issues since Islam has a sectarian component as represented by the Sunni/Shia religions which rely on oral traditions, known as hadiths, that dominate their religions and in many cases contradict the Koran. But the verses I presented today I am sure will clearly indicate that theverses about Jesus in the Koran by itself is enough for the Judiac and Christian orthodoxy to reject the Koran outright.

So there you have it.

Also see:

What Koran says about war and fighting

[link to liberalforum.org]

What Koran says about freedom of religion

[link to liberalforum.org]

What Koran says about the Torah and Gospel

[link to www.conflictingviews.com]

Reject Sunni/Shia sectarianism. Real Islam is only Koran. These sects follow the so called prophetic tradition(oral traditions) that were compiled 2 to 3 centuries after Muhammad which they believe "explains" the Koran or "suppliments" the Koran. They call them hadiths. Shariah law of theirs is based on these hadiths. Hadiths have the same place in Islam as the Talmud has on Judaism. Jesus condemned the Talmud in Mark 7 and so did the Koran. Real Islam is only Koran.

[link to free-minds.org]

The Qur'anic verses that you have cited do not actually endorse the Bible per se. Rather, they convey the established Islamic position that the Qur'an came to confirm things that are true and clarify those things that have been changed(in the previous scriptures).

I'm sorry my friend. But the assertion that you make at the end of your post is erroneous to say the least. Historically, the ahadith or sayings(of the Prophet s.a.w.) were compiled even during the time of the Prophet s.a.w. e.g. Al-Sahifah Al-Sadiqah of Abdullah ibn Amr r.a. There are documented evidence of hadith collection in the early first century of the Muslim era. The idea that hadith was compiled 2 centuries after Muhammad is a fantastic false claim made by Christian missionaries that has no place in real history. The following is from Asst. Prof. Dr. Jonathan Brown of the University of Washington who is a scholar of hadith,
"I have never been more impressed with anybody in history in my life than with Muslim ḥadīth scholars. I mean, when I first started studying ḥadīth I was very skeptical, I though it was all made-up and bogus but the more you study it the more you just appreciate the intense brain power of these people. I mean they memorized thousands and thousands of books and then they were able to recall all the different versions of ḥadīth from these books, and then they were able to analyze them and put them all together and figure-out where they all connect and make judgments about the authenticity of these ḥadīth. I mean even nowadays with electronic databases, and computers and word processing, I have hard time following even their discussions of the ḥadīth - let alone their original mastering that they were drawing on. It's almost unbelievable... It's almost unbelievable, and if you didn't have the books in front of you that they wrote, I wouldn't believe it personally...."

 

[Out There]

The Christians and Jews reject the Qur'an because it departs from many of the things said in their books. For example, Lot in the Old Testament is presented as having had sexual intercourse with his daughters. The Qur'an removes this horrendous depiction and exhonerate Lot to the level of an esteemed and righteous Prophet of God.

 

[bananabrain]

the established Islamic position that the Qur'an came to confirm things that are true and clarify those things that have been changed(in the previous scriptures).

you mean, to assert that they have been changed without offering any reason why this should be the case other than "they changed it" - for which there is no evidence, of course.

The idea that hadith was compiled 2 centuries after Muhammad is a fantastic false claim made by Christian missionaries that has no place in real history.

really? isn't there any research by "real" historians?

"I mean, when I first started studying ḥadīth I was very skeptical, I though it was all made-up and bogus but the more you study it the more you just appreciate the intense brain power of these people. I mean they memorized thousands and thousands of books and then they were able to recall all the different versions of ḥadīth from these books, and then they were able to analyze them and put them all together and figure-out where they all connect and make judgments about the authenticity of these ḥadīth. I mean even nowadays with electronic databases, and computers and word processing, I have hard time following even their discussions of the ḥadīth - let alone their original mastering that they were drawing on. It's almost unbelievable... It's almost unbelievable, and if you didn't have the books in front of you that they wrote, I wouldn't believe it personally...."

switch the word "hadith" for "halakhah" and you have word-for-word the process by which the Oral Torah began to be recorded. i say "began to be", because we're still at it, not having closed the "gates of ijtihad", d'ye see. yet we are supposed to believe that somehow the islamic process is infallible and the jewish process is "corrupt". what tendentious, self-serving claptrap.

The Christians and Jews reject the Qur'an because it departs from many of the things said in their books.

i don't know about the christians, but jews reject the Qur'an because it is superfluous to our requirements. we don't need it - we already have the Torah. why should we suddenly believe that we need a new Divine Revelation? we didn't need jesus either, or the new testament. and don't you reject the writings of the baha'i for the same reason? why is one different from the other?

For example, Lot in the Old Testament is presented as having had sexual intercourse with his daughters. The Qur'an removes this horrendous depiction and exhonerate Lot to the level of an esteemed and righteous Prophet of God.

you mean, it whitewashes him. i don't know about you, but i find prophets of G!D to be more believable as human beings, not as perfect angels. i think it's a bit more likely that you're the people editing the Divine Message than us.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[koranist]

you mean, to assert that they have been changed without offering any reason why this should be the case other than "they changed it" - for which there is no evidence, of course.


really? isn't there any research by "real" historians?


switch the word "hadith" for "halakhah" and you have word-for-word the process by which the Oral Torah began to be recorded. i say "began to be", because we're still at it, not having closed the "gates of ijtihad", d'ye see. yet we are supposed to believe that somehow the islamic process is infallible and the jewish process is "corrupt". what tendentious, self-serving claptrap.


i don't know about the christians, but jews reject the Qur'an because it is superfluous to our requirements. we don't need it - we already have the Torah. why should we suddenly believe that we need a new Divine Revelation? we didn't need jesus either, or the new testament. and don't you reject the writings of the baha'i for the same reason? why is one different from the other?


you mean, it whitewashes him. i don't know about you, but i find prophets of G!D to be more believable as human beings, not as perfect angels. i think it's a bit more likely that you're the people editing the Divine Message than us.

b'shalom

bananabrain

The Jews did not need Jesus because he did not want anything to do with the Talmud(Pharisees) and the Jews did not want anything to do with the Torah.

The Christians brought the Trinity and Muslims the Sunnah.

Torah, Gospel and Quran is from God.

Talmud, Trinity and Sunnah is from man.

So who do you trust?

Quran confirms the Torah and Gospel but attacks the Talmud and Trinity

Koran says Torah and Gospel not corrupted - ConflictingViews.com - Political forum, Discussion Board, Religious forum, forum's forum

Quran is peace!

 

[bananabrain]

koranist,

the Jews did not want anything to do with the Torah.

you are talking bollocks.

Torah, Gospel and Quran is from God.
Talmud, Trinity and Sunnah is from man.

i appreciate how much this cosy little dualism appeals to you, but it is pretty clear from what you are saying that you have absolutely no understanding of the structure of the Written and Oral Torahs and their interrelationship and only this can excuse the stupidity of this line of argument. you simply haven't answered any of the points that have been made, you've just gainsaid them with a set of assertions with nothing to back them up. directing me to some sectarian propaganda site is not making a case.

b'shalom

bananabrain