Looking into Buddhism?

[_Z_]

I put the OP in the Buddhist forum in order to maintain the content to a Buddhist perspective.

oh, i thought the author may have wanted a more rounded view.

ok debate amongst yourselves then.

ps i just looked at the link from post 32, i could take it apart at the seams i am afraid, however don’t get me wrong, i have my way you have yours. buddhism offers a very advanced way to enlightenment irrespective of such philosophical inconsistencies. mostly they are all in the wording, so there probably is no need to reevaluate them. sometimes one just has to understand what is meant right!

i will leave you be now.

 

[nativeastral]

so what gets rebirth in heaven Five pleasant things to be gained by acting skillfully

"These five things are welcome, agreeable, pleasant, and hard to obtain in the world. Which five? Long life... beauty... pleasure... status... rebirth in heaven... Now, I tell you, these five things are not to be obtained by reason of prayers or wishes. If they were to be obtained by reason of prayers or wishes, who here would lack them? It's not fitting for the disciple of the noble ones who desires long life to pray for it or to delight in doing so. Instead, the disciple of the noble ones who desires long life should follow the path of practice leading to long life. In so doing, he will attain long life, either human or divine...(Similarly with beauty, pleasure, status, and rebirth in heaven)..."
— AN 5.43


what gets reborn into samsara


?

 

[Snoopy]

oh, i thought the author may have wanted a more rounded view.

I can be as “rounded” as the next person but maybe I try to take too much account of which forum I am in.

ok debate amongst yourselves then.

As far as I am aware, none of nativeastral, bandit, bella, Eclectic Mystic, GloryToGod, seattlegal, Nick the Pilot, Nick_A and Netti-Netti (i.e. the majority of those who have so far posted here) would describe themselves as Buddhists.

ps i just looked at the link from post 32, i could take it apart at the seams i am afraid,

Perhaps I have got this all wrong. Is it OK to go to the Christianity forum to create “our” own definition of established terms and then proceed to take the Bible apart at the seams?

s.

 

[Snoopy]

so what gets rebirth in heaven Five pleasant things to be gained by acting skillfully

"These five things are welcome, agreeable, pleasant, and hard to obtain in the world. Which five? Long life... beauty... pleasure... status... rebirth in heaven... Now, I tell you, these five things are not to be obtained by reason of prayers or wishes. If they were to be obtained by reason of prayers or wishes, who here would lack them? It's not fitting for the disciple of the noble ones who desires long life to pray for it or to delight in doing so. Instead, the disciple of the noble ones who desires long life should follow the path of practice leading to long life. In so doing, he will attain long life, either human or divine...(Similarly with beauty, pleasure, status, and rebirth in heaven)..."
— AN 5.43


what gets reborn into samsara


?

Ah, as ever, a question where the answer depends entirely on who you ask! I think you are asking from the standpoint of a disinterested student yes? I would say that from the Pali canon as referred to, sentient beings will be reborn via samsara (endless wandering) into various realms (one of which is the human) dependent on past actions. See seattlegal’s post 15 and link for more detail.

I am, as ever, only speaking from my own limited, faulty understanding and viewpoint.

s.

 

[seattlegal]

seattlegal


bit of a getaround imho, ones karma would surely be linked to ones environment ~ which is the main cause of it to begin with. i feel certain that at our hearts centre is freedom, that the soul cannot be put in chains except by its own decree. or in simpler terms, karma only affects us if we want or allow it to.

i don’t see how karma glues itself to you or even if it is anything. sure there is action [judge a man by his deeds?] this is what we do, not who we are. to some degree we are actors playing our roles in this world, to this there is a level of detachment.

Some Buddhists say that the "self" is only a heap of karma.

citizenzen

well if the sun goes supernover, we all die, there would be nothing left to return to [hence no samsara]. with no way back we would enter into the only other reality available [irrespective of ones karma] ~ nirvana.

Um, Z, did you miss the link about the other realms?
Here's another:
The Thirty-one Planes of Existence

 

[nativeastral]

hi s,
disinterested? no

it is true l do not label myself anything since l do not follow any way religiously [a term coined in the 19th century by linguists, am not bound by anything except the mortal coil itself].

Just want to learn more of how others understand their 'religion' [way of life that is bound to be observed/practised] and to be better informed.

l do know that there is great diversity in all and so even the definitions of exact terms may not be as straightforward as seems [due usually to different culture/language/previous beliefs in different area].

l am aware of anatta no-self, similar to Satres concept of conscousness in existentialism [generally speaking!].

There has been numerous studies of reincarnation, l watched a documentary which left me in no doubt, a belief l hold anyway, that some [especially children, some with marks on their body] did live before and could remember enough to trace back to an event which was plausibly verifiable [these were in 'Buddhist countries].

So my question was what was reborn if not a soul, a part of spirit which had memory?

Or is it a heap of karma [vibrations of] which coagulate into another physical body- sorry for my ignorance....

 

[Snoopy]

disinterested? no

Ah, it appears this word has two meanings! I meant disinterested as in having no stake in the outcome, not what I would call "uninterested".

Anyway, linguistics aside...

So my question was what was reborn if not a soul, a part of spirit which had memory?

The most general answer I can provide is a stream of mental energy, which is not the most insightful answer I would concede.

I gleaned this from Buddhist Studies: Rebirth

as I am looking to provide general answers which is difficult, given that (as this article goes on to say), different traditions explain the process in different ways. You would really need to investigate particular traditions to see what they espoused. A common analogy is a flame passing from one candle to another. What is this new flame? Is it the same one? (Such questions are not looking for a scientific answer I think). For myself, I don't know is my rock solid position; I accept the "moment by moment" rebirth notion. I would also say (even more unhelpfully ) that to look at any one notion in isolation is difficult if not impossible. One cannot understand a thing without seeing its whole; and one cannot understand a whole without understanding the things of which it is composed.

s.

 

[nativeastral]

hi s
l never bother with posts l am uninterested or disinterested in as that would be wasting precious time

from your buddhanet source on theory of karma :
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]KARMA AND VIPAKA [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Karma is action, and Vipaka, fruit or result, is its reaction. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Just as every object is accompanied by a shadow, even so every volitional activity is inevitably accompanied by its due effect. Karma is like potential seed: Vipaka could be likened to the fruit arising from the tree – the effect or result. Anisamsa and Adinaya are the leaves, flowers and so forth that correspond to external differences such as health, sickness and poverty – these are inevitable consequences, which happen at the same time. Strictly speaking, both Karma and Vipaka pertain to the mind. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] As Karma may be good or bad, so may Vipaka, - the fruit – is good or bad. As Karma is mental so Vipaka is mental (of the mind). It is experienced as happiness, bliss, unhappiness or misery, according to the nature of the Karma seed.

l think naming my dog karma was good as l never say 'bad karma' therby perpetuating that energy! though actions speak louder than words, it is the mental that affects the actions. as you say, the particular cannot be isolated from the whole,as with all religions and philosophies for fullest understanding but now and then one can comprehend the whole in the part if you believe/perceive in that sort of way.
cheers

the flame/candle analogy l am familiar with as it is used elsewhere;


[/FONT]

 

[Netti-Netti]

from your buddhanet source on theory of karma :

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]KARMA AND VIPAKA [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/FONT]....[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]As Karma may be good or bad, so may Vipaka, - the fruit – is good or bad.
[/FONT]

It can also be neutral.

 

[nativeastral]

as in dispassion in compassion? steering the middle way, not faint hearted nor weak minded. Having no expectation of outcome, like karmayoga? not much hope for a blob of emotion like me but certainly buddhism's main tenets accord well with western intellectual sensibilities for those that have no need for a deity.

 

[Snoopy]

The Buddha classifies kamma into four groups:
(i) dark with a dark result,
(ii) bright with a bright result,
(iii) dark and bright with a dark and bright result,
(iv) neither dark nor bright with a neither dark nor bright result.

(…from the Kukkuravatika Sutta).


- The Buddha's Words on Kamma

s.

 

[nativeastral]

oops and me banging on about no deity!
19. ...of the gods of the Realm of the Thirty-three...3
20. ...of the gods that have Gone to Bliss...
21. ...of the Contented gods...
22. ...of the gods that Delight in Creating...
23. ...of the gods that Wield Power over others' Creations...
24. ...of the gods of Brahma's Retinue...
25. ...of the Radiant gods...
26. ...of the gods of Limited Radiance...
27. ...of the gods of Measureless Radiance...
28. ...of the gods of Streaming Radiance...
29. ...of the Glorious gods...
30. ...of the gods of Limited Glory...
31. ...of the gods of Measureless Glory...
32. ...of the gods of Refulgent Glory...
33. ...of the Very Fruitful gods...
34. ...of the gods Bathed in their own Prosperity...
35. ...of the Untormenting gods...
36. ...of the Fair-to-see gods...
37. ...of the Fair-seeing gods...
38. ...of the gods who are Junior to None...
39. ...of the gods of the base consisting of the infinity of space...
40. ...of the gods of the base consisting of the infinity of consciousness...
41. ...of the gods of the base consisting of nothingness...

 

[citizenzen]

The Buddha classifies kamma into four groups:
(i) dark with a dark result,
(ii) bright with a bright result,
(iii) dark and bright with a dark and bright result,
(iv) neither dark nor bright with a neither dark nor bright result.

Even after the Buddha achieved perfect enlightenment, he still had to choose when to eat, when to sleep, when to stand up and when to walk. All of these acts require volition, but the Buddha did not experience karma.

Life still presented the Buddha many experiences and trials but they were not karmic. To be alive is to encounter challenge. But when one struggles against these challenges, or tries to ward them off, or weighs their value by them, then karma takes hold.

In the book, The Heart of the World: A Journey to the Last Secret Place a member of an expedition of the Tsangpo Gorge in Tibet came upon a large fallen tree that blocked his path. It was not something that could easily be detoured. He tried to climb over it, but the tree was slippery and he fell back into the mud a number of times. This made him quite angry.

He knew that another member of the expedition, a buddhist lama, should be arriving soon to that very spot. He wanted to see what would happen when the lama encountered the tree, so he hid in the bushes.

The lama also had a very difficult time trying to get over the tree. But instead of getting angry, every time the lama fell back into the mud he let out a burst of uproarious laughter. The more the tree thwarted him, the funnier it seemed.

+++

So we will always use volition and choice as tools to help us navigate through life.

But how we meet the challenges put before us will determine whether we become saddled with karma or are free of it.

 

[Snoopy]

Deities. No deities.

s.

 

[Snoopy]

In the book, The Heart of the World: A Journey to the Last Secret Place a member of an expedition of the Tsangpo Gorge in Tibet came upon a large fallen tree that blocked his path. It was not something that could easily be detoured. He tried to climb over it, but the tree was slippery and he fell back into the mud a number of times. This made him quite angry.

He knew that another member of the expedition, a buddhist lama, should be arriving soon to that very spot. He wanted to see what would happen when the lama encountered the tree, so he hid in the bushes.

The lama also had a very difficult time trying to get over the tree. But instead of getting angry, every time the lama fell back into the mud he let out a burst of uproarious laughter. The more the tree thwarted him, the funnier it seemed.

Good one.


s.

 

[nativeastral]

north american indian? attitude of gratitude
a glad heart maketh a cheerful countenance!

all those g#ds a a multitude of mindless not mindful metaphors then...

 

[Dream]

As far as I am aware, none of nativeastral, bandit, bella, Eclectic Mystic, GloryToGod, seattlegal, Nick the Pilot, Nick_A and Netti-Netti (i.e. the majority of those who have so far posted here) would describe themselves as Buddhists.

This raised some questions in me: What are Buddhist credentials? What are Buddhist children like?

Regarding question 1
In terms of rituals or cultural things what can Buddhists can usually rely upon in each other that seem hit-or-miss among non Buddhists? Suppose I need to disguise myself as a Buddhist for maybe a day or two, and I've paid you to help me out. I'm aiming for: what are Buddhists to each other? What if all the Buddhists decide to skip lunch and go do something religious?

Regarding question 2
What should Buddhist children learn to help them find their way in life, that makes them Buddhist? I have not been a Buddhist adult, but at some point I did have something in common with Buddhist children, since I have been a child. What did Buddhist children get that I, as a non-Buddhist, probably missed, say up through age 12? (Stop before age 12 if the question is too broad.)

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Dream,

thank you for the post.

This raised some questions in me: What are Buddhist credentials?

like what makes one a Buddhist? generally speaking, the formal method requires the going forth to Refuge in the Triple Jewel in the presence of two Buddhists.. there are some different requirements for monastics as you may well imagine.

informally, i would suspect that anyone that professes their refuge in the Triple Jewel, i.e. self identifies as a Buddhist, would be a Buddhist.

What are Buddhist children like?

like children everywhere, individual differences notwithstanding.

Regarding question 1
In terms of rituals or cultural things what can Buddhists can usually rely upon in each other that seem hit-or-miss among non Buddhists? Suppose I need to disguise myself as a Buddhist for maybe a day or two, and I've paid you to help me out. I'm aiming for: what are Buddhists to each other? What if all the Buddhists decide to skip lunch and go do something religious?

i'm not sure i understand the gist of the question... but i think you are asking something about how a being would behave to blend into a group of Buddhists. to that answer i would say that it would strongly depend on the group of Buddhists in question... a group of Tibetan nuns will have different behaviors than a group of Sri Lankan laypeople so the actions that a being would employ to blend into the group would vary quite drastically. i have a feeling that this is more to do with culture than religion per se.

Regarding question 2
What should Buddhist children learn to help them find their way in life, that makes them Buddhist?

meditation. though such practice does not make one a Buddhist. indeed, as paltry as my own practice is i would strongly recommend meditation to every being irrespective of their religious or non-religious orientation. as for something specifically Buddhist, i would have to say the Triple Jewel once again, the Buddha, the Dharma and the Sangha but, of course, this is simply my view.

I have not been a Buddhist adult, but at some point I did have something in common with Buddhist children, since I have been a child. What did Buddhist children get that I, as a non-Buddhist, probably missed, say up through age 12? (Stop before age 12 if the question is too broad.)

meditation, more than likely. further it would depend on if this Buddhist child is in a monestary or not. in a monastic setting it is a combination of scholastics and sutra study, so they would have been exposed to the religious literature which you've not been. in a non-monastic setting it would certainly tend to be more culturally related, i.e. a lay Buddhist child in Nashville will have a different experience than a lay Buddhist child in Johannesburg, what they will share, more than likely, is a practice of meditation.

metta,

~v

 

[seattlegal]

Children's guided meditations.
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/med-guided2.pdf

 

[Netti-Netti]

This raised some questions in me: What are Buddhist credentials?

My initial reaction would have been that Buddhism without Buddhist ethics is kind of a mentalistic head game involving a lot of abstract psychological/philosophical concepts that are complicated by exotic sanskrit terminology. Upon closer inspection, it seems Buddhists were smart in practical ways and saw this was going to be an issue.

It seems they also saw that meditation without insight to give motive force to meditation as a practice is likely to be a stylized, superficial, fake-it-till-you-make-it practice with no assurance of getting results. For all these reasons, Prajna would seem to be the most important Buddhist practice. The other Buddhist practices - ethics and meditation - almost make no sense without it.

Prajna basically means Perfection of Wisdom and seem to include a general lifestyle involving having a decent grip on mental distortions/delusions/afflictions and the tendency to generate karmic offenses via insight into situations by which those tendencies -- and the fear and disappointment that go along with them -- are maintained.