Looking into Buddhism?

Snoopy said:
Regarding my OP:



"The essence of the Buddha's teaching can be summed up in two principles: the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path."

- The Noble Eightfold Path

s.
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Hi folks, I have been reading this thread and there are many interesting links for people just starting to learn about Buddhism. Thanks for posting them.

My first question about these resources is a very general one.

I asked a little about dogma in an earlier post, but I am still trying to understand it with respect to Buddhism.

Would you say that the Eightfold Path and Noble Truths are dogmatic principles ?

Also, I we discussed the idea of dogma in the quantum mechanics thread:

seattlegal said:
As for Zen being less dogmatic than other religions: yes, there can be dogmatic folks who call their practice Zen. However, Zen is about going outside of regular thought patterns, (dogma included?) so any dogma will eventually be challenged by Zen practice.
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So SG indicated that dogma would be challenged by Zen practice. Can you give me an example how that challenge would manifest ?

Thanks.
 
Avi said:
Does Buddhism have "dogma" ? If so, are the Eightfold Path and Noble Truths dogma ?

Some people think dogma is bad. Do you agree with that view ?
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Hey Avi,

I had to look up the definition of dogma just to make sure I wasn't steering you wrong. But according to the definition, the Four Noble Truths and the Eight-Fold Path do qualify as dogma.

I've never found them to be bad or limiting. They are the foundation of one's practice, but certainly not the end-all product. The end-all product is what's staring you right in the face this moment... and the next moment... and the moment after that.
 
Avi said:
So SG indicated that dogma would be challenged by Zen practice. Can you give me an example how that challenge would manifest ?
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One possible approach would be to look into Zen ethical relativism, which lent itself to the development of the fanatical military culture of imperial Japan, where we see monks assisting war criminals. There was also something about war as a means to enlightenment.

My impression of male Japanese culture is that it has elements that are authoritarian, militaristic, patriarchal, and abusive toward women. D.T. Suzuki considers Japanese culture to be Zen culture, and he is probably a credible source on this. He has written many books, including one that is specifically concerned with Zen and Japanese culture.
 
citizenzen said:
Hey Avi,

I had to look up the definition of dogma just to make sure I wasn't steering you wrong. But according to the definition, the Four Noble Truths and the Eight-Fold Path do qualify as dogma.

I've never found them to be bad or limiting. They are the foundation of one's practice, but certainly not the end-all product. The end-all product is what's staring you right in the face this moment... and the next moment... and the moment after that.
Click to expand...

Thanks for responding to my question about dogma, CZ. I realized after posting it, and after reading your response, that I am better off coming back to dogma later. I have been trying to deal with the issue of dogma in my own religion, Judaism, for about three years now, and have made little progress. So it is probably not a great place to start thinking about Zen, which I know nothing at all about :). It is a complex issue.

I have started reading the link that Snoopy provided to the Eightfold Path, and it is quite intriguing. I am very interested in the notion of ending suffering. But I have what I guess will be another naive question: don't most of our emotions play an important part in our survival and lives ? For example, we all learned as children, in elementary school, that pain plays in important role in our safety, right ? If we put our finger in the fire and it didn't hurt, we would burn like a candle. Isn't there an analogy to suffering ?

I have been reading about Bhikkhu Bodhi, who wrote the summary of the Eightfold Path provided in the link. He seems like quite a brilliant man. Would you say that his greatest contribution is putting these ideas about Zen into this readable form ?


Netti-Netti said:
One possible approach would be to look into Zen ethical relativism, which lent itself to the development of the fanatical military culture of imperial Japan, where we see monks assisting war criminals. There was also something about war as a means to enlightenment.

My impression of male Japanese culture is that it has elements that are authoritarian, militaristic, patriarchal, and abusive toward women. D.T. Suzuki considers Japanese culture to be Zen culture, and he is probably a credible source on this. He has written many books, including one that is specifically concerned with Zen and Japanese culture.
Click to expand...

NN, thank you also for responding to my question about an example of challenge to dogma. This is an interesting example, indeed. I have seen D.T. Suzuki quoted elsewhere on this thread, he looks like one of the luminaries.

Tao_Equus said:
I have been "looking into Buddhism". I have left it alone here on this forum so far but that is going to change very soon. It is every bit as insidiously disempowering as any of the Abrahamics and just as bloodthirsty. I have long held 'opinions' of my own that cast a dark shadow on Buddhism yet lacked the specific detail to be able to substantiate my views. I have, in the interests of fairness and impartiallity, sought to rectify that.
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Oh, and I had missed this part earlier, it looks like this thread was more fun than I realized :D.
 
Avi, one Zen master I highly recommend is Thich Nhat Hanh. He's written many, many books, and the ones that I have read have been very clear and easy to understand. He's also quite eclectic in his approach to Zen and Buddhism, so his teachings really resonate across a broad spectrum of cultures. :)
 
On the issue of dogma:
Do not be idolatrous about or bound to any doctrine, theory, or ideology, even Buddhist ones. Buddhist systems of thought are guiding means; they are not absolute truth.

~Thich Nhat Hanh

​
That was at the top of the list....
The Fourteen Precepts of Engaged Buddhism

​
 
Netti-Netti said:
On the issue of dogma:
Click to expand...

When I told Avi that the Four Noble Truths and the Eight-Fold Path were dogma I was applying this definition from Merriam-Webster.com...

2. a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church
​

But in reality, and in practice, I totally agree with your post.

A Buddhist quickly learns that doctrine is not the Way.

Thich Nhat Hanh rocks. But if I met him on the road, I'd probably have to kill him too.
 
citizenzen said:
When I told Avi that the Four Noble Truths and the Eight-Fold Path were dogma I was applying this definition from Merriam-Webster.com...
2. a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church
​
But in reality, and in practice, I totally agree with your post.

A Buddhist quickly learns that doctrine is not the Way.

Thich Nhat Hanh rocks. But if I met him on the road, I'd probably have to kill him too.
Click to expand...

Right CZ, this is one of the problems that I have been considering with respect to dogma. So, for example, if there are relatively simple "doctrines, beliefs, axioms, principles, rules", etc. It seems to me that they are dogmatic.

On the other hand, if these relatively simple concepts can be expanded to have much deeper meaning, then they are no longer dogmatic. So it seems to me that it depends on how the individual interprets and uses these "doctrines" in their own way to determines whether the ideas are dogmatic. Do you agree with that perspective ?
 
SG, CZ and NN, thank you for the resources that you have suggested. They look like very interesting materials for study. :)
 
Avi said:
So it seems to me that it depends on how the individual interprets and uses these "doctrines" in their own way to determines whether the ideas are dogmatic. Do you agree with that perspective ?
Click to expand...

I'll agree with that. For me, Buddhist "dogma" is not something to focus on in a day to day way. It's more like a touchstone to return to now and again to test one's understanding and see how it and you have changed over time.
 
Avi said:
Right CZ, this is one of the problems that I have been considering with respect to dogma. So, for example, if there are relatively simple "doctrines, beliefs, axioms, principles, rules", etc. It seems to me that they are dogmatic.

On the other hand, if these relatively simple concepts can be expanded to have much deeper meaning, then they are no longer dogmatic. So it seems to me that it depends on how the individual interprets and uses these "doctrines" in their own way to determines whether the ideas are dogmatic. Do you agree with that perspective ?
Click to expand...
It's the spirit behind the doctrine that is important. If you are not guided by the spirit behind the doctrine, then the doctrine becomes an empty shell. Veneration of an empty shell is idolatry, is it not?
Do not be idolatrous about or bound to any doctrine, theory, or ideology, even Buddhist ones. Buddhist systems of thought are guiding means; they are not absolute truth.

~Thich Nhat Hanh
Click to expand...
 
Netti-Netti said:
That concerns me! The problem is that nonattachment to doctrine can mean moral relativism.
Click to expand...
That is true. It can be dangerous.
Clinging to the letter of doctrine, rather than the spirit of the doctrine can actually become a hindrance in transforming the kleshas.


Letting go​
​
Two monks were returning to the monastery in the evening. It had rained and there were puddles of water on the road sides. At one place a beautiful young woman was standing unable to walk accross because of a puddle of water. The elder of the two monks went up to a her lifted her in his arms and left her on the other side of the road, and continued his way to the monastery.
In the evening the younger monk came to the elder monk and said, "Sir, as monks, we cannot touch a woman ?"
The elder monk answered "yes, brother".
Then the younger monk asks again, " but then Sir, how is that you lifted that woman on the roadside ?"
The elder monk smiled at him and told him " I left her on the other side of the road, but you are still carrying her "
​
 
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