Looking into Buddhism?

seattlegal said:
That is true. It can be dangerous.
Clinging to the letter of doctrine, rather than the spirit of the doctrine can actually become a hindrance in transforming the kleshas.

Letting go​
Two monks were returning to the monastery in the evening. It had rained and there were puddles of water on the road sides. At one place a beautiful young woman was standing unable to walk accross because of a puddle of water. The elder of the two monks went up to a her lifted her in his arms and left her on the other side of the road, and continued his way to the monastery.
In the evening the younger monk came to the elder monk and said, "Sir, as monks, we cannot touch a woman ?"
The elder monk answered "yes, brother".
Then the younger monk asks again, " but then Sir, how is that you lifted that woman on the roadside ?"
The elder monk smiled at him and told him " I left her on the other side of the road, but you are still carrying her "
​
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So the younger monk was clinging to "helpfulness doctrine"?
 
Netti-Netti said:
So the younger monk was clinging to "helpfulness doctrine"?
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The younger monk was allowing the idea of helpfulness to be obscured by not recognizing the spirit behind their monastic vows. He even continued to carry this hindrance with him even after he saw the older monk follow the spirit behind their vows by helping the woman.
 
seattlegal said:
The younger monk was allowing the idea of helpfulness to be obscured by not recognizing the spirit behind their monastic vows. He even continued to carry this hindrance with him even after he saw the older monk follow the spirit behind their vows by helping the woman.
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Oops....I guess I still have a few things to learn....:D
 
Avi said:
Oops....I guess I still have a few things to learn....:D
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I believe Netti-Netti was just asking me to to chew his food for him. (Or he wanted to make sure I was properly chewing my food.) :p

{Reminds me of when I asked a Sufi why getting information out of a Buddhist was like pulling teeth, and he answered, "Buddhism is like pulling teeth." However, my observation is that Zen is often not like that in the way that other types of Buddhist practices can be, imo.}
 
seattlegal said:
Reminds me of when I asked a Sufi why getting information out of a Buddhist was like pulling teeth...
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This would be true if it weren't for that fact that Americans like me can't keep their mouths shut. :eek:
 
seattlegal said:
I believe Netti-Netti was just asking me to to chew his food for him.
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No I was not and sorry for the misunderstanding. There's more than one interpretation of the story. I thought since this was a discussion forum, it might help to get more than one view on it.

I see your interpretation is kind of "Christian" in the sense that you see the story as an illustration of "Healing on the Sabbath" where legalistic concerns interfere with effectuating the law of love.

I'll tell you what the story means to me when I have a chance.
 
Netti-Netti said:
No I was not and sorry for the misunderstanding. There's more than one interpretation of the story. I thought since this was a discussion forum, it might help to get more than one view on it.
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Yes, there is also "skillful means," knowing when to grasp and when to release.

I see your interpretation is kind of "Christian" in the sense that you see the story as an illustration of "Healing on the Sabbath" where legalistic concerns interfere with effectuating the law of love.
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That would make sense, as I am a Christian. :)

I'll tell you what the story means to me when I have a chance.
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Looking forward to it. :)
 
Avi said:
I have been reading about Bhikkhu Bodhi, who wrote the summary of the Eightfold Path provided in the link. He seems like quite a brilliant man. Would you say that his greatest contribution is putting these ideas about Zen into this readable form ?
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Bhikkhu Bodhi is a Theravadan monk I believe, not quite sure what you mean by "these ideas about Zen."...

s.
 
Avi said:
I am very interested in the notion of ending suffering. But I have what I guess will be another naive question: don't most of our emotions play an important part in our survival and lives ? For example, we all learned as children, in elementary school, that pain plays in important role in our safety, right ? If we put our finger in the fire and it didn't hurt, we would burn like a candle. Isn't there an analogy to suffering ?
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..which is why I think "suffering" is an unhelpful translation of dukkha. You can be as "enlightened" as you like but it's still going to be painful when you stick your finger in a fire.

What I think needs to be addressed is the mis-match between reality and that which we have constructed. Herein lies our dukkha, I think. :)

s.
 
Snoopy said:
Bhikkhu Bodhi is a Theravadan monk I believe, not quite sure what you mean by "these ideas about Zen."...

s.
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Namaste Snoopy,

thanks for the post.

you are correct regarding Bhikku Bodhi.

i'm going to suggest that perhaps Avi was using the term "zen" in it's practice context i.e. zazen and as zazen is one of the two types of meditation (samatha and vispassana... zazen is samatha) it is found in all three Vehicles and to the extent that Bhikku Bodhi writes about samatha meditation i would tend to agree that his exposition is quite insightful.

it is, of course, possible that Avi is simply using the moniker "zen" to encompass all of the Buddha Dharma or it is possible that he/she is actually referring to the Soto or Rinzai Zen schools in which case i'd have to say that i've not read anything from Bhikku Bodhi regarding those particular schools.

metta,

~v
 
Originally Posted by seattlegal: " It's the spirit behind the doctrine that is important."

To which you responded:
citizenzen said:
Amen, SG...
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So what is the spirit of Zen?

According to DT Suzuki, Zen is about will power. To me that conjures up
images of self-propelled, authoritarian/disciplinarian types whose idea of
making their presence known is to impose their will on others.
 
Netti-Netti said:
Originally Posted by seattlegal: " It's the spirit behind the doctrine that is important."

To which you responded:


So what is the spirit of Zen?

According to DT Suzuki, Zen is about will power. To me that conjures up
images of self-propelled, authoritarian/disciplinarian types whose idea of
making their presence known is to impose their will on others.
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Perhaps will power in the sense of being mindful, but that's just the image that this attribution conjures up for me.
 
seattlegal said:
Perhaps will power in the sense of being mindful, but that's just the image that this attribution conjures up for me.
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As an aside, I thought the emphasis on strength of will was discontinuous with the Taosist roots of Buddhism. Wu Wei is not willful.
 
Snoopy said:
Bhikkhu Bodhi is a Theravadan monk I believe, not quite sure what you mean by "these ideas about Zen."...

s.
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Thank you, you are right, I meant Buddhism.


Snoopy said:
..which is why I think "suffering" is an unhelpful translation of dukkha. You can be as "enlightened" as you like but it's still going to be painful when you stick your finger in a fire.

What I think needs to be addressed is the mis-match between reality and that which we have constructed. Herein lies our dukkha, I think. :)

s.
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I appreciate your explaining the concept of dukkah. Interestingly, wiki uses the translation - "disquietude", which is an interesting expression as well.

Vajradhara said:
i'm going to suggest that perhaps Avi was using the term "zen" in it's practice context i.e. zazen and as zazen is one of the two types of meditation (samatha and vispassana... zazen is samatha) it is found in all three Vehicles and to the extent that Bhikku Bodhi writes about samatha meditation i would tend to agree that his exposition is quite insightful.

it is, of course, possible that Avi is simply using the moniker "zen" to encompass all of the Buddha Dharma or it is possible that he/she is actually referring to the Soto or Rinzai Zen schools in which case i'd have to say that i've not read anything from Bhikku Bodhi regarding those particular schools.

metta,

~v
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Thank you for clarifying the two types of meditation.

Because I am new to studying Buddhism, I did mean "Zen" in the more general context, but thanks for explaining which schools it is not part of.

Incidentally, I am a male. My screen name, Avi, is a contraction of Avraham, a common Jewish name.

My interest in Buddhism is based on my understanding that Buddhism is compatible with other religions, Judaism for example. I have been told that there are people that consider themselves JuBu's (or JewBu's I am not sure of the spelling :)).
 
Snoopy said:
..which is why I think "suffering" is an unhelpful translation of dukkha. You can be as "enlightened" as you like but it's still going to be painful when you stick your finger in a fire.

What I think needs to be addressed is the mis-match between reality and that which we have constructed. Herein lies our dukkha, I think. :)

s.
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Avi said:
I appreciate your explaining the concept of dukkah. Interestingly, wiki uses the translation - "disquietude", which is an interesting expression as well.
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Interestingly, wu wei has been described as creative quietude.


Avi said:
My interest in Buddhism is based on my understanding that Buddhism is compatible with other religions, Judaism for example. I have been told that there are people that consider themselves JuBu's (or JewBu's I am not sure of the spelling :)).
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I think it is, especially if you look at the Buddha as a therapist.
 
Avi said:
Because I am new to studying Buddhism, I did mean "Zen" in the more general context, but thanks for explaining which schools it is not part of.


My interest in Buddhism is based on my understanding that Buddhism is compatible with other religions, Judaism for example. I have been told that there are people that consider themselves JuBu's (or JewBu's I am not sure of the spelling :)).
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There are those who would say that Zen is Taoist Buddhism, but there have been Taoists who have said that Taoism and Buddhism teach the same thing. :)
 
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