is conversion appropriate in this age?

[_Z_]

is conversion appropriate in this age?

why do people still try to convert others to their ways? surely it is better especially in our age, to exchange ideas without always having an agenda or any other kind of covert plan! even if open about it, what right do people have to convert? and what exactly is there to convert too? each of us has a subjective understanding of our world, surely then gods way or the way of truth in any context, is the way of the anarchist, eventually we will come to understand that no labels can define us, and there is no path.

welcome to the magic roundabout, da na na na nah nah, da na na na nah nah...

‘if one way is to give freedom, and another is to take freedom away, then the former may not give itself to the latter’

my way i hope is of freedom, i think we are living in an age when its truth is in the erasure of lines and divisions, ways and paths, where there is no absolute truth. it may be uncomfortable yet when we arrive there we find that suddenly everything is ok.

 

[arthra]

I think I understand your topic..

What right do people have to try to convert someone..

Usually some kind of pressure is used.. Maybe not physical pressure so much as social pressure or inducements.. Sales people use some of these approaches I believe and so do those who are trying to push their religion on others.

This I believe is behind door to door approaches.. Some people are lonely and want to talk to someone.. Maybe their loved one passed on some recently ..anyway they are generally pretty vulnerable.

I've noticed people who do this keep exact records of who they contact and what the responses are then they go back to them for follow up visits and so on...

The thing is though in a so-called free society people are allowed to walk around and talk to people but some of us don't really know they also have a right to slam the door or simply say to them "no, leave now" .. get out of my face when they are pestered.

I think there should be more of a willingness in people who are seeking say a new religion or belief system.. They approach with an interest or question.. They have the initiative..

It's people who are very vulnerable or shall we say very passive who should be left alone..but I know there are plenty of cases where a salesperson has a quota or a zealot is too aggressive..

- Art

 

[_Z_]

i agree, and i despise sales techniques a lot more than religious ones, at least with religion someone thinks they are helping others. in the main truth is there to be found, it doesn’t need to be preached ~ we don’t live in illiterate societies anymore.


good points there art

 

[path_of_one]

I always figured conversion isn't really so much about your beliefs or experience of God, but generally is about social loyalities. It's about choosing a particular religious institution to which to pledge attendance, cash, service, etc. I find nothing wrong with that- I mean, religion is a social endeavor, and people should be free to switch social groups when desired.

I do find the pressure some put forth to convert problematic, but no more so than other behaviors I find intrusive, like telemarketing. There will always be people who are vulnerable to whatever sales pitch is being made, be it new phone service or new church. Can't really help that and in a capitalist society, the freedom is there for anyone to sell you nearly anything.

 

[Nick_A]

is conversion appropriate in this age?

why do people still try to convert others to their ways? surely it is better especially in our age, to exchange ideas without always having an agenda or any other kind of covert plan! even if open about it, what right do people have to convert? and what exactly is there to convert too? each of us has a subjective understanding of our world, surely then gods way or the way of truth in any context, is the way of the anarchist, eventually we will come to understand that no labels can define us, and there is no path.

welcome to the magic roundabout, da na na na nah nah, da na na na nah nah...

‘if one way is to give freedom, and another is to take freedom away, then the former may not give itself to the latter’

my way i hope is of freedom, i think we are living in an age when its truth is in the erasure of lines and divisions, ways and paths, where there is no absolute truth. it may be uncomfortable yet when we arrive there we find that suddenly everything is ok.

Does this include the concerns of the bodhisattva:

Bodhisattva vows - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Bodhisattva does not seek bodhi (Awakening) solely for him/herself, but chiefly for the sake of freeing all other beings and aiding them into the bliss of Nirvana.

Of course it isn't appropriate and politically incorrect but again there could be another side.

Are you saying that the bodhisattva seeking to awaken humanity to the bliss of nirvana is wrong to take such a vow and should just accept everything as OK where one path is as good as another?

 

[_Z_]

hi path

...generally is about social loyalities. It’s about choosing a particular religious institution to which to pledge attendance, cash, service, etc. I find nothing wrong with that- I mean, religion is a social endeavor, and people should be free to switch social groups when desired.

they are not free as the same conditions which coerced them to join are still there. surely choice is non existent here ~ unless someone come to you [a given church etc] to join that is.

i wouldn’t go to far with the marketing analogy, buying a telly is not the same as giving your life and family over. as i say it is fine if the choice is really free.

Nick_A, hi

Does this include the concerns of the bodhisattva:

maybe, is an offering the same as a conversion. buddhist missionaries did go around converting though, when really if it is just a philosophy as people say, then there would be no converting.

i would say one path is as good as another yes ~ and as bad, better to be without paths and societal conditioning and to have universal understanding perhaps.


_______

in the past people genuinely thought all may one day be converted, is that ever going to happen now? what exactly is being achieved?

 

[_Z_]

hmm thinking about it....

if i said to a christian; you are right so i convert, then to a buddhist; you are right so i convert, then to a muslim; you are right so i convert, to a hindu; you are right so i convert, to a taoist; you are right so i convert.

what then am i? i would have to convert one or the other ~ and my wife and family would have to convert too [in most cases].

so even if i agree with them it leaves me in a muddle, i certainly couldnt say one religion is right over another, yet that is what all of them are saying!!!! otherwise why are they not asking us to join to all.

 

[Nick_A]

hi path


they are not free as the same conditions which coerced them to join are still there. surely choice is non existent here ~ unless someone come to you [a given church etc] to join that is.

i wouldn’t go to far with the marketing analogy, buying a telly is not the same as giving your life and family over. as i say it is fine if the choice is really free.

Nick_A, hi

Does this include the concerns of the bodhisattva:

maybe, is an offering the same as a conversion. buddhist missionaries did go around converting though, when really if it is just a philosophy as people say, then there would be no converting.

i would say one path is as good as another yes ~ and as bad, better to be without paths and societal conditioning and to have universal understanding perhaps.


_______

in the past people genuinely thought all may one day be converted, is that ever going to happen now? what exactly is being achieved?

What does it mean to be converted? I'll stick with Buddhism since Christianity has bad connotations in respect to this idea.

If the bodhisattva is right, we live both individually and collectively in unnecessary suffering, blind to reality. It is really the same idea as Plato's cave. So the bottom line is assuming such an equality and universal understanding is impossible for such a chaotic mindset. So even though it sounds nice, in reality, if the bodhisattva is right. it is imposible. The human condition could never allow it.

So converting for the bodhisattva means to help a person to awaken to the unfortunate human condition and to agree to prctice the Eightfold Path that would lead to freedom from the human condition.

However, depending on the time within a person's life, the human condition is not so easy to recognize. Some guy on vacation with a six pack and a cute blonde with his feet up by the pool would be annoyed if a bodhisattva starts explaining the human condition. Yet for the bohisattva, he has taken a vow to aid in awakening which means changing a mindset people would call conversion.

As we know Christian proselytizing is a big no no. Yet at the time the essential expression of Christian love is aiding in the awakening of another. Some student in seminary school could write a thesis on the depth of this distinction between the egositic expression of proselytizing and the profound love of one who has begun awakening that aids in awakening of another and a community working together in this cause that many don't recognize.

There really are many sides to your question IMO.

 

[mee]

is conversion appropriate in this age?

why do people still try to convert others to their ways? surely it is better especially in our age, to exchange ideas without always having an agenda or any other kind of covert plan! even if open about it, what right do people have to convert? and what exactly is there to convert too? each of us has a subjective understanding of our world, surely then gods way or the way of truth in any context, is the way of the anarchist, eventually we will come to understand that no labels can define us, and there is no path.

welcome to the magic roundabout, da na na na nah nah, da na na na nah nah...

‘if one way is to give freedom, and another is to take freedom away, then the former may not give itself to the latter’

my way i hope is of freedom, i think we are living in an age when its truth is in the erasure of lines and divisions, ways and paths, where there is no absolute truth. it may be uncomfortable yet when we arrive there we find that suddenly everything is ok.

well for mee i think it was more a case of recognizing the truth of the bible and then converting myself , it has to come from ourselves , but as the bible says ,


However, how will they call on him in whom they have not put faith? How, in turn, will they put faith in him of whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent forth? Just as it is written: “How comely are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!”
acts 10;14-15


its all part of Gods purpose to send out those who have good things to declare, and its all GOODNEWS .


but the response has to come from you , and only you . those sent forth are only the messengers

 

[mee]

I've noticed people who do this keep exact records of who they contact and what the responses are then they go back to them for follow up visits and so on...


- Art

think about the amount of houses that Jehovahs witnesses call on , if i didnt make a note of the house number or road i would forget where that interested person lived .

and if i didnt note down what the response was ,i might end up going back and saying hello mr brown, when really his name was mr white up the road , its just to make sure we have the right address and name for when we go back .

and if someone had just lost a loved one it would be really nice to show that person FROM THE BIBLE that there was a really nice hope for the future to see their loved one again .


but if i didnt write things down i might by mistake go back to that person thinking that their loved one was just at work , and say something to offend . its good to get the facts right .

 

[GlorytoGod]

There is only one way to God.

John 14:6 (New International Version)

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

 

[bananabrain]

no.

no to the last two posts particularly - and, generally, no. although what i am against is evangelising and going out there to convert people in order to "save" them. that is based on a triumphalist point of view that i consider to be, technically speaking, total bollocks.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[nativeastral]

all paths lead to one, practise what you preach, walk the talk and talk the walk, lead by example dont shove it down ppls mouths and some may convert gladly and naturally if they are open to that 'way of believing' anyway. l always say l'm into tarot and astrology when someone comes to my door evangelising and that usually makes them bid a hasty retreat.

 

[Thomas]

all paths lead to one...

I agree in almost every respect, but for the above ... this is a dictum of the New Age ... but sadly is founded on nothing more than naive sentimetalism and romantic (if I might quote my honourable friend) 'bollocks'.

It's patently obvious that all paths do not lead to the same goal — the path of the egoist does not lead to the same goal as the altruist, for example.

Furthermore, to even claim such requires a complete and existential knowledge of the goals of every path.

Having said that, nor do I endorse triumphalism as bananabrain presents it, and rightly so. However, could one accuse Judaism of being triumphalist in the sense that they are the Chosen People of God, and the rest of us are not ... ? Not a serious point, however.

And I do echo the Nativeastral's "practise what you preach, walk the talk and talk the walk, lead by example ... " That's the best rule.

+++

The good, as the philosophers say, seeks to communicate itself.

One of the tragedies of the schism between East and West in Christianity was the West was left to follow its own course, and could not help but be subject to a certain latinate and juridical emphasis residual of the Roman Empire — to the point where the the philosophical notion of 'the good seeks to communicate itself' ended up as the big stick of 'this is for your own good', a means by which every wrong action is exonerated.

The medicine of this was Gaelic Christianity ('Celtic Christianity' is too diffuse a term — all Europe was Celtic to some degree), but as events unfolded, the light of the Emerald Isle itself became subject to the litigious West.

Christianity is still working to see itself apart from a Eurocentric theological vision.

The New Age itself is stuck in its traces ... it needs to disengage itself from the Romance Movement of the 19th century on the one hand, and an ill-informed infatuation with all things Oriental on the other.

Thomas

 

[Dondi]

Coming from a Christian background, mind you:

As Christians we are called to present the Gospel to every creature. It is plain in scripture. So if our desire is to serve the Lord we must also care about people, for their spiritual condition.

I don't believe in high pressure evangelism. Generally when I go out on visits for my church it's to present the Gospel to them and give them an open invitation to come to Christ without pressure. We also invite them to church, but we don't try and pressure them to come either. If they are already attending a church we aren't trying to pry them away. Basically, we are looking for those who aren't already members of a church who might be interested.

You'd be surprised how little people about Christ, even the fundamentals of Christianity, even if they have a church background. And how many respond to the Gospel once it's presented in a clear fashion.

Many folks in our church will testify how God has dramatically changed their lives. How relationships have been restored, marriages restored, reconciliation with parents, how they have gotten free from alcoholism and drugs, and had their lives cleaned up. More than that they now have a genuine faith in God that affects their daily lives, all because someone took the time to knock on their door one day and shared the Good News about Jesus Christ.

Why would anyone object to a plan that helps people in their spiritual walk? Or even providing a choice for that spiritual walk that they never heard or considered before? There are a lot of needy people that just need to be shown that someone cares for them, cares for their soul, even cares for their needs. Many times when members have knock on doors, they not only have the opportunity to present the Gospel, but often are able to provide their services for physical needs. For instance, on one visit one lady's heater wasn't working and she was having to open her oven just to keep warm. But one of our members who is a mechanic was able to provide free of charge the needed part to repair her heater. Another family we helped move into a townhouse.

Now you might be saying that if people wanted religion they would have come to church already. But many folks just aren't inclined to just show up for church unless they are invited. I mean, it's a daunting thing to step into a church to a group of people you don't even know. But if you know someone, like say someone who came to your door and invited you, and will meet you at the church, at least then you'd be familiar with someone.

Is it salesmanship? Maybe. If you had something that has worked in your life and in the lives of people you know, wouldn't you want others to know? Wouldn't you want to advertise it?

 

[arthra]

Mee wrote above:

"...but if i didnt write things down i might by mistake go back to that person thinking that their loved one was just at work , and say something to offend . its good to get the facts right ."

My comment:

I can see Jesus telling His disciples

and He instructed them that they should take nothing for their journey,

except a mere staff--

no bread,

no bag,

no money in their belt--

"But.. wait!

Take a pad and pencil so you remember who you talked to!"

 

[arthra]

He warn't no social worker..

Dondi wrote:

Is it salesmanship? Maybe. If you had something that has worked in your life and in the lives of people you know, wouldn't you want others to know? Wouldn't you want to advertise it?

My comment:

I knew this guy who was an Avon Christian.. If he wasn't selling Avon it was Christianity.. He had the same premise you apparently do..

Well he happened to work in my office and he was a "social worker" .. more like a community worker actually..

People would go out to lunch with him and he'd be selling the waitress..

She'd come over to take his order and he'd ask her if she'd been saved.. well this went on for awhile..

Eventually we'd get complaints from the public..

He was selling Christianity to the clients and inviting them to church if that wasn't a go, he'd sell them Avon.

I talked to him and said ya know.. You'd make maybe a good salesman but you're not doing your job.. so he got transferred quickly to some other office.

I don't know by now he might be a general manager for Avon or maybe he's top dog soul catcher of a hugh mega church but he warn't no social worker.

- Art

 

[GlorytoGod]

I remember listening to a sermon and this guy was saying that the holy spirit needs to be involved for evangelism, if not then its just you trying to persuade someone else to your point of view



if God is involved then he will tell you where to go, who to speak to and what to say and thats when you see people being saved and coming into the Kingdom

​

 

[GlorytoGod]

also any suggestion on how to deter Jehovah's Witnesses ?

they keep coming round on saturday mornings lol

 

[Postmaster]

The question is why do people try to convert people? This to me has a thousand answers. One particular one I notice is converting someone to a different ideology is almost similar to a courtship ritual of trying to seduce, and maybe a subconscious drive to practice this valuble skill set.