M
mee
Guest
thats the way to do it
john 17;3 and its all in the bible about Jesus and the true God JEHOVAH
The bible is most benefical to us 2 timothy 3;16-17
is conversion appropriate in this age?
- Thread starter _Z_
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john 17;3 and its all in the bible about Jesus and the true God JEHOVAH
The bible is most benefical to us 2 timothy 3;16-17
M
mee
Guest
very true
especially when you know that the God of the bible wants it to be advertized matthew 24;14 matthew 28-19-20
_Z_
from far far away
if god is infinite then all ways lead to him ~ or more that there are no ways to him as he is amongst us, hence no journey necessary.
so you all [christians] think christianity is ‘the’ way to god? so your purpose on these forums is not to be comparative but to keep saying you are right and everyone else are wrong?
i would be saddened if that were true. its just pure ignorance.
so you all [christians] think christianity is ‘the’ way to god? so your purpose on these forums is not to be comparative but to keep saying you are right and everyone else are wrong?
i would be saddened if that were true. its just pure ignorance.
M
mee
Guest
not so many people back then ,and just think in 1000 years i will be more perfect and my memory will be perfect also
Jesus Christ, when sending out first the 12 apostles and then the 70 disciples to preach in Israel, told them not to carry food pouches. (Mt 10:5, 9, 10; Lu 9:3; 10:1, 4)
Jehovah would care for their needs through the hands of fellow Israelites, among whom hospitality was a custom.
Just before his death Jesus indicated that circumstances would change as a result of official opposition, so he told his disciples to take along both purse and food pouch.
Nevertheless, they were to seek first God’s Kingdom instead of being anxious about material needs; thus they would give evidence that they depended upon Jehovah God to care for them in the ministry.—Lu 22:35, 36; Mt 6:25-34.
M
mee
Guest
matthew 24;14 matthew 28;19-20 thats right , thats when God is involved and behind it all. and great things are then accomplished in more ways than one
if God is involved then he will tell you where to go, who to speak to and what to say
M
mee
Guest
also any suggestion on how to deter Jehovah's Witnesses ?
they keep coming round on saturday mornings lol
matthew 24;14 And this GOODNEWS will be preached , and so it is being done by JEHOVAHS WITNESSES
And people can never say that they were not put on notice about the GOODNEWS OF THE KINGDOM.
Jehovahs people are doing it for all to see, regardless of the response to it
on with the work of the Lord
.
GlorytoGod
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M
mee
Guest
so that they can get through the GREAT TRIBULATION and go on to inherit a paradise earth revelation 7;14 matthew 5;5
and the only way to be saved is to respond to the GOODNEWS about the kingdom matthew 24;14
the most highJEHOVAH is having this great global preaching work done so that he can gather A great crowd FROM ALL NATIONS,
REVELATION 7;9-10
and it will be these ones that will get through the GREAT TRIBULATION REVELATION 7;14
yes the most high has a purpose and it is to bring all things together again in the christ , the things in the heaven and the things on the earth.
_Z_
from far far away
oh so the thread has now turned into a christian preaching session doh! or a load of tripe really. how can you all believe that stuff, ~ to not take any food pouches because god will look after you... how many people have died of starvation or thirst in this world?
have you ever met reality?
or a load of tripe really. how can you all believe that stuff, ~ to not take any food pouches because god will look after you... how many people have died of starvation or thirst in this world? have you ever met reality?
path_of_one
Embracing the Mystery
if god is infinite then all ways lead to him ~ or more that there are no ways to him as he is amongst us, hence no journey necessary.
so you all [christians] think christianity is ‘the’ way to god? so your purpose on these forums is not to be comparative but to keep saying you are right and everyone else are wrong?
i would be saddened if that were true. its just pure ignorance.
Some Christians believe Christianity is the only way. But then, Christianity is variously defined in Christian denominations.
Some Christians believe Christ is the only way (there is a difference). Christ is also variously defined.
Some Christians believe other religious/spiritual/philosophical paths also lead to Christ. Or to God. Or both, if the person in question believes Christ=God.
We're a rather diverse lot in how we see Christ, God, and Christianity... so you'll get all different sorts of answers and different views on conversion and salvation.
I don't believe all paths lead to God- those that lead to the ego, I believe, are leading away from the awakening to the true nature of the self, and thus away from God. Those that lead us into harming ourselves and others are not beneficial.
BUT, I believe all people end up in God. It's just a matter of time, in my opinion. We can resist a long time, but God is eternal and infinite. We're bound to eventually run out of steam in our egoic lives and come to terms with the Divine. I believe God is patient by nature. By virtue of God's infinite and eternal Being-ness, by virtue of God's love, mercy, and justice... well, there is no rush from His/Her part. Time is on God's side.
And for those that would say this is too nicey-nice, there is nothing nice about spending lives separated (by one's own choice) from God. Anyone who experiences God could tell you that being separate from God is torturous and painful. I maintain that those who are not in this experience perhaps have just not realized how miserable they actually are. This is not a slight against those who don't believe. There is a difference between experience of God and belief in Him/Her. Experience is life-altering, but it can be framed in a variety of interpretations, including an atheist one.
In every moment, which is really all we definitively have (all else is just an idea we have)... heaven is right here with us. Hell is right here with us. We choose- that is the power given to us by God... the power of us as observers to become conscious, to become awake to our power to create with God. Our power to create our reality, to unite with God or to deny God. To unite with all other beings or to deny this union. To see ourselves and Christ and God in all beings or to separate them out and reify our ego. It's really a tremendous thing- this bit about the Kingdom of God among us, within us.
Anyhoo, my two cents.
N
Nick_A
Guest
Z
This is why Simone wrote what she did:
People defend fighting over partial truths: false gods.
The question becomes if there is any value in awakening to our attachments to false gods and sacrifice the self justifications they offer? I would agree with Simone and say yes. The human condition has allowed us to accept an unnatural life explained in Buddhism through the parable of the Burning House and in Christianity By Paul as the "wretched man" and by Plato as the Cave analogy. The experience of human meaning and purpose only comes as a result of this sacrifice of false gods. Those that are committed to their beliefs will say no. A person must choose and continue from there.
Where you seem to be asserting the value of accepting all false gods as eqaul and "one", I believe that "ONE" is at a higher level of psychological reality beyond the scope of false gods and something we must awaken to.
yes there are many sides to the question, as indeed there are many different answers [see my last post]. there is nothing wrong with telling people ones truth, as long as they ask. believe me, if anyone can say what the truth is then we would all come flocking to that truth.
unfortunately reality is a tad more complex than any particular understanding and indeed language itself.
i think there are many truths to be learned from all faiths, the problem only comes with the labels.
if a christian or jew could marry a muslim or a pagan and bring up their children without indoctrination, then all is well.
This is why Simone wrote what she did:
People defend fighting over partial truths: false gods.
The question becomes if there is any value in awakening to our attachments to false gods and sacrifice the self justifications they offer? I would agree with Simone and say yes. The human condition has allowed us to accept an unnatural life explained in Buddhism through the parable of the Burning House and in Christianity By Paul as the "wretched man" and by Plato as the Cave analogy. The experience of human meaning and purpose only comes as a result of this sacrifice of false gods. Those that are committed to their beliefs will say no. A person must choose and continue from there.
Where you seem to be asserting the value of accepting all false gods as eqaul and "one", I believe that "ONE" is at a higher level of psychological reality beyond the scope of false gods and something we must awaken to.
M
mee
Guest
its good how those who respond to GOODNEWS can have a complete personality change .
and when they look back at how they acted in the past they feel a real fool.
make no mistake about it , Jehovahs witnesses meet alsorts in the door to door work and nothing shocks them.
they have seen it all before.
and the funny thing is
the ones who come to your door could have more than likely been doing all those silly things themselves BEFORE they became
JEHOVAHS WITNESSES .
But they have now put on the new personality.
and it is the mind of Christ ,now that is much better
Dondi
Well-Known Member
path_of_one said:
I understand your position well, path. And I'm cool with that.
I don't think I'm anyone special either. Nor would anyone in my church. But I have a God who I think is special, precisely because He changed my life. And I absolutely agree that we have the testimony of our life style. But it's not my life style that I'm trying to lift up. It Jesus Christ who I'm trying to lift up. Because my life wouldn't have changed without Him and His Love. Are we to sit quietly and let them guess? Are we hiding our light under a bushel by keeping silent?
Our personal testimony is perhaps the greatest witness, but we aren't presenting the whole story of how God changed us if we don't let people know how we got there.
I don't convert anyone either. We aren't the converters, the Holy Spirit is. So we need to be sensitive to the Holy Spirit's leading. Sometimes, a person is just ready. They are ripe for the harvest. They simply didn't know how. Others are either not ready or not interested. That's fine. We leave them be. There is no pressure to come to God. Any attempts at conversion would be false anyway. A person must come on his own accord. We simply leave them some literature and if they have any questions call, and maybe invite them church.
And I agree with you that there can be an awakening is other religions, in fact I've seen this myself. On one of my visits I met a Buddhist, who was married to a Christian wife we were visiting. This man was disillusioned with disparing remarks that someone told him in a Christian church, so he gave up being a Christian and became a Buddhist. We had a conversation and I shared with him my testimony. But it was clear that he wasn't interested. However, just in our conversation I felt very comfortable in what his views were and many seem to coincide with mine. And I thought to myself, this person already has that 'something' in his life. He doesn't need conversion because he's already experience some kinda change. So we parted on cordial terms. (Now my church might disagree with me on this point. But I try not to make judgments. I'm just the messenger. Besides, the guy was just about as confident as I am in going to heaven. Who's to say? Like I said before, I believe in the concept of the 'anonymous' Christian.)
But the point is that I'm not looking for those who have 'Something'. I'm looking for those who don't. Reach out to folks who and give some kind of hope to those who live in quiet desperation, as Thoreau would say. To toss a lifeline to those who need it. Jesus didn't go to those who weren't sick.
Dream
Well-Known Member
Join them.GlorytoGod said:
Same goes for all the rest. It seems that the one thing they are not prepared for is success. Think of Ponzi schemes, and the similarities abound. Look at anything with a strong tendency towards conversion and scrutinize it for efficiency. How are goods distributed? Do people fall through the cracks? What about orphans, widows and the aged? What is all the money used for? etc.
Crazy Circles!
nativeastral
fluffy future
I don't believe all paths lead to God- those that lead to the ego, I believe, are leading away from the awakening to the true nature of the self, and thus away from God. Those that lead us into harming ourselves and others are not beneficial.
BUT, I believe all people end up in God. It's just a matter of time, in my opinion. We can resist a long time, but God is eternal and infinite. We're bound to eventually run out of steam in our egoic lives and come to terms with the Divine. I believe God is patient by nature. By virtue of God's infinite and eternal Being-ness, by virtue of God's love, mercy, and justice... well, there is no rush from His/Her part. Time is on God's side.
this is what l meant when l said all paths lead to one; none is the true or right one otherwise you ignore the vast population of the earth and their integrity and purpose in life. all religions have extremists skewing the 'word'.
unfortunately it is in the very realm of spirituality one must be vigilant to egoistic intentions; religions are replete with so called gurus masters and ministers leading an inauthentic life. as dawkins points out in the 'selfish gene' he means that altruism is built in to humans as we are social animals dependent on others-and those are the ones that survived.
l also believe if we are created from the one we will return to that source and humans that are sufficiently 'humane' to others have no need for creed that preach exclusiveness.
path_of_one
Embracing the Mystery
I think that's exactly how I see things. But I consider the church I go to part of my lifestyle. My life should lift up God. The specifics of who I think I am (my religion, my church, my nationality, my hobbies, etc.) are all irrelevant. Maybe that's my view because I had God long before I had a church or a religion. I see a distinct difference between the two. Not saying that's the same for everyone.
Yes, we are to be quiet. I think. I don't think they have to guess. I think it's in every human being to recognize the peace and love of God when they see it. If they are ready to be consciously aware of it, they will become curious.
I don't keep silent (obviously, LOL). But I let people first see the testimony of my life, not my church or my religion. People have preconditioned ideas about Christianity and churches. They have no preconditioned ideas about someone who will listen, who will give, who will love. To me, my life is God's. So giving someone my life's testimony and my love is the closest thing I can do to showing them the face of God. Reaching out in peace and love is the closest thing I can do to serving them as if they were Christ Himself. In this way, people who are not ready to talk about Christianity still manage to talk to me about God and the spirit. Happens all the time.
This occurs, I think, because my testimony is first to listen. Silence and listening first. People, in general and especially hurting people, need attentive listening first. They need to feel loved, and we feel loved when others care about our story, our hurts, our struggles. People then feel understood, they feel they have an ally, a friend. I know that for me, God patiently listens to all my cries to Him- my pains and my joys, my gratitude and my confusion. That God listens to me... I cannot express how much love I feel in that. Likewise, when my husband or sister or friend listens to me, attentively and without judgement, I feel very loved. I feel that they truly care about me.
Perhaps it's just a difference in calling; I do not know. I feel very strongly that in my case, I am called first to be still and listen. When I am very still in my spirit, paying calm attention to another and seeing, with all my heart, the face of humanity and of Christ looking back at me... there is an energy that is unmistakeable that seems to work in other people. And, conversely, when this is given to me by another person- I feel that same energy. The love of God, the peace of God, manifest in us. The Kingdom of God among us.
I have never found a better way to usher in this awakening to God than this. It is beyond expression. And perhaps that is why it works to me- God is also beyond expression. I cannot say anything or give any Bible quote or point to any church that has the same capacity for awakening as a determined effort to emanate love. And the wonderful thing is that it is entirely immune to deconstruction, to oppression, to anything humanity can throw at it. Without words, it cannot be silenced. Without cultural barrier, it cannot be misinterpreted. Without place or time, it is all places and all times. It is in every moment and can reach every person around me. It is universal. The more I make an effort to live in that space, the more I see its rippling effect around me and within me.
And every time I stray from it, I find the rippling effect of discontent, of anxiety, of depression in me and around me.
The hard part is making the choice.
I let people know the how once they ask. I also don't presume that my "how" is very relevant. I've seen many others get to the same space with far different paths than mine. So, I presume the how is an interesting footnote. It is the change itself, the energy of that change, that has the capacity to invoke more change. The "what" (God) is the main thing to me. God is the prime mover and I figure He can move in a variety of ways- who am I to know?
I don't think it's wrong to invite people to a church. I don't think conversion is wrong. I just think church does not equal salvation. It could be that a person such as yourself does both at the same time- offers an awakening, and offers a social group. I don't have much to offer in terms of a social group- it's just not my thing- not my gift to give. I think religious groups can be very valuable for some people. I just don't think the same religious group is valuable for all people. I would imagine you agree.
The way I see it, I'm looking for everyone. Those who have Something and those who don't. From those who have it, it is a chance to learn and to replenish my spirit. The chance to commune, to fellowship. To question myself. It is a strong check on my own ideas and actions.
I'm also looking for those that don't. From those who don't have it, it is a chance to learn and to give from my spirit. The chance to share the joy of communion and fellowship. And to question myself. It is a strong check on my own ideas and actions.
I guess I see the glass as half full no matter what. I feel I can learn from every being, that every being is an opportunity to give and an opportunity to grow. In touching the face of others' desperation, I touch the face of my own suffering. In healing others' desperation, I heal myself. Each being is a chance to look in the mirror of my own spirit, and be honest about what I find there. Each being is a gift I long to embrace with everything I have- pain, scars, joys, sins, and all. And in so doing, I embrace the depths of who I am, of what I could be, and find forgiveness. In that action, I find there is tremendous power for transforming all beings into love.
I am not sure I am saying any of this well. Words are really difficult.
_Z_
from far far away
path
and we can extend that further to different kinds of abrahamic faiths yes? then on to similarities between those and other faiths etc etc ...so what exactly are we supposed to be converting to, one particular brand or all, perhaps as our understandings can only be subjective, one can only truly convert to someone elses singular idea of it.
perhaps one of the prophet over another, or jesus and the NT over the OT. no wait we can’t do that as our interpretation would still be subjective even if given only a single other choice but our own!
you see my point! even defining religion is like defining god ~ not possible.
morality finds itself. if we follow the way of the ego eventually we learn its faults and hence find the same morals of those who learned them in the first place.
experiences god? ok lets say some people do arrive in the supposed heaven on earth, where everything magically changes and the universe we thought existed no longer does [somehow?]. i would be interested to hear exactly what that is? we live we die then there is no after life [some christians believe this]? or earth becomes heaven, and we live forever, have ten zillion children [or none], married to the same person ~ forever, never suffering, so never working, living in a true communist world ~ or do we have leaders bossing us around still [a kind of suffering].
sounds to me like an impossible vision! as a scientist i would have thought you would think these things through a bit, or if you have then i await your reply eagerly.
please accept my appologies for being so direct and abrasive, we have to get to the core of this or be left with nonsense.
nick a
ok i’ll reply to simones posts which did not answer the point btw. ...about converting to all etc.
..unless said truth is nothing.
i refuse nothing! i am happy to accept truth, i am sure the bible has many as does the koran etc etc.
and a complete truth is!!! wait for it, its the christian truth yes, one that you cannot even say what it is.
plato was a pagan and christianity refuted the teachings of the greek philosophers as such, we only got them back after the crusades. basically all of those ideas destroy everything we are, the ego is not something extraneous to what we are, it is part of us. the misunderstanding and misuse is wrong not the ego itself. if we burn our house completely there is simply nothing left, which is kinda the idea of buddhism. this is not satisfactory in life as it cannot be achieved.
to say what is a false god and what is not, we first have to define what is a false god and what is not. are you saying that all hindu gods apart from brahma or brahman [note the ‘or’], if even those, are false gods?
mee
and i’ll tell you the good news; its that none of us knows the answer, all prophets are false, all religions are false, the god of the bible is a liar, all of us are at best heretics and there is no such thing as a jew or a palestinian or a muslim or a pagan.
hurrah there are only people! ..and labels cannot define the wonder of humans and life.
is that so bad?
and we can extend that further to different kinds of abrahamic faiths yes? then on to similarities between those and other faiths etc etc ...so what exactly are we supposed to be converting to, one particular brand or all, perhaps as our understandings can only be subjective, one can only truly convert to someone elses singular idea of it.
perhaps one of the prophet over another, or jesus and the NT over the OT. no wait we can’t do that as our interpretation would still be subjective even if given only a single other choice but our own!
you see my point! even defining religion is like defining god ~ not possible.
morality finds itself. if we follow the way of the ego eventually we learn its faults and hence find the same morals of those who learned them in the first place.
experiences god? ok lets say some people do arrive in the supposed heaven on earth, where everything magically changes and the universe we thought existed no longer does [somehow?]. i would be interested to hear exactly what that is? we live we die then there is no after life [some christians believe this]? or earth becomes heaven, and we live forever, have ten zillion children [or none], married to the same person ~ forever, never suffering, so never working, living in a true communist world ~ or do we have leaders bossing us around still [a kind of suffering].
sounds to me like an impossible vision! as a scientist i would have thought you would think these things through a bit, or if you have then i await your reply eagerly.
please accept my appologies
for being so direct and abrasive, we have to get to the core of this or be left with nonsense. nick a
ok i’ll reply to simones posts which did not answer the point btw. ...about converting to all etc.
i believe in supposed false gods! e.g. the egyptian god anubis has taught me much about balance ~ the ma'at. is paganism a pretend religion? is hinduism then a false religion? or buddhism as it has no gods? perhaps the christian god is the false one, no-one can even tell me what it is, so it must be ~ for truth must be expounded or it is not anything at all.
..unless said truth is nothing.
what is not god? and what is god that we may make this comparison?
i refuse nothing! i am happy to accept truth, i am sure the bible has many as does the koran etc etc.
and a complete truth is!!! wait for it, its the christian truth yes, one that you cannot even say what it is.
plato was a pagan and christianity refuted the teachings of the greek philosophers as such, we only got them back after the crusades. basically all of those ideas destroy everything we are, the ego is not something extraneous to what we are, it is part of us. the misunderstanding and misuse is wrong not the ego itself. if we burn our house completely there is simply nothing left, which is kinda the idea of buddhism. this is not satisfactory in life as it cannot be achieved.
to say what is a false god and what is not, we first have to define what is a false god and what is not. are you saying that all hindu gods apart from brahma or brahman [note the ‘or’], if even those, are false gods?
mee
what is the kingdom of daniel i don’t know for i havent read the bible [just bits of it]? i would put a pretty penny on it that even without knowing what it is, it will be a relatively easy task to demolish it completely. so go ahead tell me.
and i’ll tell you the good news; its that none of us knows the answer, all prophets are false, all religions are false, the god of the bible is a liar, all of us are at best heretics and there is no such thing as a jew or a palestinian or a muslim or a pagan.
hurrah there are only people! ..and labels cannot define the wonder of humans and life.
is that so bad?
N
Nick_A
Guest
Path_of _One
Would you find the Buddhist idea of the wheel of samsara unnecessarily depressing since we don't automatically end up in God but rather continue in circles and in many cases end up further from the source of life itself?
BUT, I believe all people end up in God. It's just a matter of time, in my opinion. We can resist a long time, but God is eternal and infinite. We're bound to eventually run out of steam in our egoic lives and come to terms with the Divine. I believe God is patient by nature. By virtue of God's infinite and eternal Being-ness, by virtue of God's love, mercy, and justice... well, there is no rush from His/Her part. Time is on God's side.
Would you find the Buddhist idea of the wheel of samsara unnecessarily depressing since we don't automatically end up in God but rather continue in circles and in many cases end up further from the source of life itself?
path_of_one
Embracing the Mystery
No, I don't find it depressing. It is pretty close to my best guess of how it works, actually. I don't think ending up in God is automatic.
I think we start off in God, are always in God... but our recognition of that is the issue. And it's not a uni-directional thing. We can awaken and then fail to cultivate that awakening, and go back to sleeping. I've seen it in my own life- I sometimes become lazy. I just recognize the torture that accompanies the laziness.