Evidence of God

[wil]

I think it is easier for many to find the evidence of a god, then say those of a less fortunate position... Such as those whom have to walk miles, just to get some water, which is highly infected with all sorts of nasty things... All those who have had their land torn apart by war, greed and hatred...

But I think the more "kushy" your life is the easier it seems to find this god.

Funny, I think it exactly the opposite.

Those in what we deem dire straights, down on their luck are often those with such gratefulness for G!d's provisions.

However those on the hill in the mansion think they've done it all themselves.

rich man camel needle et al.

 

[lunamoth]

Luna,

It's difficult to put what I see into a short statement but stay with me on this.

According to your original post, you are dealing with God in the third person, ergo the word "God" Now, this tends to connote a specific idea (read that as religion specific) of what reality is all about. Now this alone isn't invalid, just limited as are all perspectives actually.

Well, my faith is very relationship based and being a human it makes sense to me to relate to God as human. I think God is transcendent and immanent, and as soon as I start talking about God it is his immanent aspect I relate to. God is More than Person, not less.

What we need is to move outside the rather limited arena of the purely rational, the purely personal (ironically) into the trans rational, trans personal.
The scientific method excludes metaphysics right? Well, then let it, it isn't of use in the trans-personal inquiry by itself, but the trans-rational must include, envelop and go beyond that.

There is an injunction when it comes to spiritual inquiry that reason can tell you must be honored before any results can be obtained. Prayer, meditation, etc must be practiced to experience what lies beyond our ken. William James knew this and spoke about in in Varieties of Religious Experience.

There are doctors who study this kind of thing. I believe people like Julian Jaynes, and Dr. Ramanchandra have much to tell us of the reaction in the brain and how certain types of religious experiences affect the brain.
But beyond merely physical evidence that something is going on is the purely trans-personal experience of the mystics and sages in many religions.

Rumi, St. John of the Cross, Julian of Norwich, Shams Tabriz, Hui neng, Ramana Maharshi, and many others speak of the Supreme Reality in different ways, each with the flavor of their own backgrounds, but each tended to express reality in either second or first person terms.

Not to include myself with the persons listed above, but my own experience tends toward the first person type. In deep meditation I sometimes see that there is no difference between I and thou, because All That Is is ALL THERE IS. In other words what I think of as "me" dissolves leaving only THIS.

All of that is folded up in my simple reference to the experience of the mystics, so I quite agree with you.

From this perspective, it would be reasonable to say that Values are indeed a priori because what else could they be? From someone who sees God in the Third Person, or separate from and outside of the self, this would be blasphemy.

Do you see what I am so clumsily trying to get at?

I think I do see, and to say that values are rooted a priori in yourself is like a Christian saying that values come from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I'm OK with the paradox of the 'One' and the self/other both being part of our understanding of God.


Thank you for a great post.

 

[citizenzen]

Funny, I think it exactly the opposite.

Those in what we deem dire straights, down on their luck are often those with such gratefulness for G!d's provisions.

However those on the hill in the mansion think they've done it all themselves.

rich man camel needle et al.

It doesn't matter what economic strata you live in. What matters is the quality of mind you possess.

Which is easier? What does that matter?

Would it change anything to find out that the poor have a 7% greater likelihood of gaining enlightenment over the rich?

 

[lunamoth]

Hi Dondi,

So, have you jumped ship to be an atheist or playing devil's advocate here?

Athiests would claim the same thing regard the non-existence of God.

Of course. I'm just pointing out their own circular logic. Based in pure 'logic,' stalemate.

Experiences can only give subjective testimonials, which can be a form of legal evidence. The Gospels, if I'm reading you right, are an example of this. I do not know how the blood of the martyrs could consistute evidence. There have been martyrs of all kinds of political and religions sects, but that doesn't prove that their ideals are true.

By the blood of martyrs I mean that for whatever a martyr dies for they hold it to be so true that they not only can't indulge in 'intellectual dishonesty' about it, but they place such a high stake in it as truth that they give all that they have upholding it. I realize that this does not apply strictly to Christianity and that there are martyrs for all kinds of causes. This shows that we do hold values as true in the deepest sense of the word.

People are willing to die for principles. I don't think that can make sense in a strictly utilitarian world.

Values are likewise subjective. Any society can come up with their own set of values and passed them into laws. And there is going to be some commonality to them: Don't kill, don't steal, don't lie or perjure, don't commit certain sex acts, etc. And them attach some form of retribution to the laws. But that doesn't mean God was involved, only that the society recognizes the practical value of enforcing them to keep the society together.

The specific values themselves are subjective. But the fact that we have values, and that we value values, is universal.

See my comments on the Gospels above. As far as the love thing, even the heathen love their own. Watched 'The Godfather Pt I & II' recently and was struck by the loyalty and honor displayed and that despite being part of the crooked mafia, Don Vito Corleone had a genuine heart for people. Course, as fiction I have to take the movie with a grain of salt, but I wonder of that grain has some truth to it.

Well, that's my point actually. Love was not invented when Jesus was born and it's not limited to certain religions or cultures, but is a universal principle upon which all of our laws aim to hang. It's something we all know. The fact that love is the foundation of the Christian worldview is evidence of the truth of the religion.

Despite all the evil and corruption and starving babies in the world.

Despite the risk of all the evil and corruption and starving babies in the world. As I said, a Creator who values freedom, as in our free will and freedom in creation. And a Creator, who in the end, will not waste a single aspect of our existence.

 

[lunamoth]

I am not trained as a logical thinker and I cannot argue logically at all. I am an intuitive thinker and I have flashes of knowing what I know and having a peace about that knowing. I decided to attempt a Masters in Theology at an evangelical seminary: Fuller Theological Seminary as they have a branch in Colorado Springs. After a year, I dropped out because of my health..but I realized that I started too late in life to attempt to define my beliefs with reason and logic. Maybe that is why I have never been comfortable on this forum and it as taken me nearly 3 years to get up the courage to post anything.

Well I'm glad you are posting now! And it is cool that you have some actual seminary training under your belt. I am strictly an amateur and my training is in science with very little formal philosophy.

All that to say, is that Luna's post made sense to me on an intuitive level. I also agree with Paladin about the spirit of God dwelling within and through mediation, prayer, dance, chanting, we can experience union with the Divine. One of the many theological books that I have sitting on my shelf is about the challenge of articulating the Christian understanding of God in a manner that balances, affirms and holds in creative tension the twin truths of the divine transcedence and the divine immanence: 20th Century Theology-God and the World in a Transitional Age, written by the late Stanley J. Grenz along with Roger E. Olson.

I think hanging out on the intuitive level is just fine myself. Frankly I'm heading back that way myself. Just needed to remove a few obstacles (beams) first. I need to stop thinking so much about this and get back to a more prayerful approach.

I believe that the Holy Spirit is what unites all of us like a web that connects us to each other and to a God, who rather than invade our turf from above, comes to us from the temporal beyond.

Nicely said.

God participates in our present from the vantage point of the future. There is a loose coalition of thinkers that have recently emerged as a movement known as narrative theology. They argue that God is a dynamic reality who participates with us on the journey of life; but the focus of the Divine participation is story. For more see Open Source Theology:

open source theology | collaborative theology for the emerging church

I'll have to look into OST. Right now I am trying to learn more about Process Theology. Sounds like the two might be related.

 

[Janz]

This crusty old Buddhist would like to point out the Divine doesn't doesn't just exist in nice, flowery acts and moments.

The Divine is in garbage that litters the streets. The Divine is in the grit as well as the glitter.

I'm sorry it took so long for you to get the courage to contribute to these threads. I've always found you to be a very reasoned and intelligent voice.

Thank you for the reminder and for the encouragement. I agree that the Divine exists in the depths of our pain, suffering and sorrow. I have encountered God's grace and mercy during the darkest nights of my soul..even more so than those "flowery" times.

 

[lunamoth]

Thank you for the reminder and for the encouragement. I agree that the Divine exists in the depths of our pain, suffering and sorrow. I have encountered God's grace and mercy during the darkest nights of my soul..even more so than those "flowery" times.

Now I'm the one on the receiving end of inspiration. Those are words full of wisdom and grace. Thank you.

 

[lunamoth]

And now as Buddha teaches, enlightenment, and then the laundry (and scrubbing the toilets)!

Catch you all later.

 

[CroatianCatholic]

Time, Space, and Matter are not infinite but finite. That is more than enough evidence for me.

 

[CroatianCatholic]

Despite all the evil and corruption and starving babies in the world.

Free will. The evil, corruption, and starving babies, and other ungodly things we see, and sometimes commit, are not the works of God but the works of man. It's lust, greed, and arrogance which lead to these horrible things we see. Unfortunately, it is often achieved through the works of "Religion".

"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ."- Gandhi

Religion has never been the problem. People have always been the problem and the historical and current evidence is undeniable. Our beautiful earth is dying and we are to blame.

 

[lunamoth]

Hi Paladin —

I think the philosophy of Paul Ricoeur adds weight here.

Ricoeur is a philosopher and a theologian, and regards the two as quite distinct and separate sciences. He discusses the matter under the title of Critique and Conviction, and addresses what each finds acceptable, and offensive, in the other.

etc...

Hi Thomas,

Do you know anything about Alvin Plantinga?

I've read that he engages the atheist philosphers in debate, but it goes mostly over my head.

 

[Thomas]

Do you know anything about Alvin Plantinga?

Only through references by others. Funnily enough, his name came up when I was reading last night — W Norris Clarke 'Person and Being' — and it's come up more than once, but oh! Time, give me time!

Re 'over my head'
when I read texts on the metaphysics of being, something inside lights up, vistas open up, veils are drawn aside ... deep, dark caverns glimmer ahead of me ... but that's me.

It's not 'over your head', dear Luna, it's just other than what lights up your soul.

God knows, the ontology of nature, metaphysics, even Trinitarian Theology has little to do with Christianity in any meaningful sense: I can show how all life is Trinitarian, but that won't get me through the Pearly Gates, meanwhile the bloke over the road, who can't even spell his own name, but shares a crust with the bloke next to him, has got an 'access all areas' pass in waiting...

Having said that, I can offer 'scientific' proof of the metaphysical fact that 'love makes the world go round', which I think is more up your street ... when I get time, I'll edit it and post it, because I do rather think that will please you more.

But don't hold your breath...

Thomas

 

[lunamoth]

Only through references by others. Funnily enough, his name came up when I was reading last night — W Norris Clarke 'Person and Being' — and it's come up more than once, but oh! Time, give me time!

Re 'over my head'
when I read texts on the metaphysics of being, something inside lights up, vistas open up, veils are drawn aside ... deep, dark caverns glimmer ahead of me ... but that's me.

It's not 'over your head', dear Luna, it's just other than what lights up your soul.

God knows, the ontology of nature, metaphysics, even Trinitarian Theology has little to do with Christianity in any meaningful sense: I can show how all life is Trinitarian, but that won't get me through the Pearly Gates, meanwhile the bloke over the road, who can't even spell his own name, but shares a crust with the bloke next to him, has got an 'access all areas' pass in waiting...

Having said that, I can offer 'scientific' proof of the metaphysical fact that 'love makes the world go round', which I think is more up your street ... when I get time, I'll edit it and post it, because I do rather think that will please you more.

But don't hold your breath...

Thomas

Oh, I do enjoy philosophy though and it does open up things for me quite a bit. Just that I'm not well versed in the methodology and language of philosophy. In spite of the name of this thread, I am not really that interested in anything that claims to be scientific proof of God. For me I think all science is evidence of God, and there is nothing that can be called proof of God, or science. Always nice though to see theological principles upheld in our scientific observations.

So, I would be interested in reading your 'proof' that loves makes the world go around, as we already know it does. I tend to over-think many things, but my way to God is very much in a practical (sharing bread with the bloke next to me) and mystical (prayer and sacraments) manner.

 

[lunamoth]

Oh, I do enjoy philosophy though and it does open up things for me quite a bit. Just that I'm not well versed in the methodology and language of philosophy. In spite of the name of this thread, I am not really that interested in anything that claims to be scientific proof of God. For me I think all science is evidence of God, and there is nothing that can be called proof of God, or science. Always nice though to see theological principles upheld in our scientific observations.

So, I would be interested in reading your 'proof' that loves makes the world go around, as we already know it does. I tend to over-think many things, but my way to God is very much in a practical (sharing bread with the bloke next to me) and mystical (prayer and sacraments) manner.

Dear me, I hope the above does not read as snarky! I was writing in a hurry on my way out the door. Just trying to say that while I am interested in reading your take on love making the world go round, I think the whole mindset of trying to use science to 'prove' God is kind of missing the main point.

 

[Dondi]

Hi Dondi,

So, have you jumped ship to be an atheist or playing devil's advocate here?
.

What do you think?

 

[Dondi]

By the blood of martyrs I mean that for whatever a martyr dies for they hold it to be so true that they not only can't indulge in 'intellectual dishonesty' about it, but they place such a high stake in it as truth that they give all that they have upholding it. I realize that this does not apply strictly to Christianity and that there are martyrs for all kinds of causes. This shows that we do hold values as true in the deepest sense of the word.

Or that we are deluded in thinking they are values.

The specific values themselves are subjective. But the fact that we have values, and that we value values, is universal.

Universalism does not necessarily equate to God. Neither do values.

Well, that's my point actually. Love was not invented when Jesus was born and it's not limited to certain religions or cultures, but is a universal principle upon which all of our laws aim to hang. It's something we all know. The fact that love is the foundation of the Christian worldview is evidence of the truth of the religion.

Define 'love' in this example.

Despite the risk of all the evil and corruption and starving babies in the world. As I said, a Creator who values freedom, as in our free will and freedom in creation. And a Creator, who in the end, will not waste a single aspect of our existence.

It's hard to see 'the end' when you're dealing with the present.

 

[lunamoth]

Or that we are deluded in thinking they are values.

Exactly.

Universalism does not necessarily equate to God.

I never said that it did.

Neither do values.

The ideas of good and bad, right and wrong in themselves depend upon there being meaning to life. You can't get from mere utilitarianism to purpose.

Define 'love' in this example.

From wiki on CS Lewis The Four Loves

"Caritas (agapē, αγαπη) is an unconditional love directed towards one's neighbor which is not dependent on any lovable qualities that the object of love possesses. Agape is the love that brings forth caring regardless of circumstance. Lewis recognizes this as the greatest of loves, and sees it as a specifically Christian virtue. The chapter on the subject focuses on the need of subordinating the natural loves to the love of God, who is full of charitable love. Lewis states that "He is so full, in fact, that it overflows, and He can't help but love us." Lewis metaphorically compares love with a garden, charity with the gardening utensils, the lover as the gardener, and God as the elements of nature. God's love and guidance act on our natural love (that cannot remain what it is by itself) as the sun and rain act on a garden: without either, the object (metaphorically the garden; realistically love itself) would cease to be beautiful or worthy. Lewis warns that those who exhibit charity must constantly check themselves that they do not flaunt—and thereby warp—this love ("But when you give to someone, don't tell your left hand what your right hand is doing."—Matthew 6:3), which is its potential threat."

It's hard to see 'the end' when you're dealing with the present.

True. Refer to Jamarz' last post.

As for the 'problem of evil,' my thoughts lately have been on exactly what omniscience and omnipotency can mean.

As I said to Paladin, and Thomas, although I used the term evidence I am not speaking in terms of proof of God. I agree with Kierkegaard that it takes a leap of faith. The 'evidence' distinguishes faith in God from faith in a teapot orbiting the sun.

Now Dondi, my arguments are open for deconstruction until the cows come home. I admit that. What I'm wondering is once you've deconstructed your worldview, where do you go from there?

What is your take on all this? Do you believe in God? Why? Do you believe in Christ? Why?

 

[Gatekeeper]

Do you think that we spend too much time looking for God? And valuable human effort is waisted on it? I been thinking turning Agnostic recently.

Yes, I think so in a sense. We can no more find G-d, then we can find peace through endless war. I think instead of looking for God, we should rather open up to His reality, and allow Him to reveal Himself to us (through His Spirit).

Biblical jargon aside, spiritual truth's are revealed, and not found. They are experienced, and not observed by our five senses. I think God wishes us to know Him, and He draws us to His reality, revealing Himself to the degree in which we are ready/willing to receive.

GK

 

[Postmaster]

Yes, I think so in a sense. We can no more find G-d, then we can find peace through endless war. I think instead of looking for God, we should rather open up to His reality, and allow Him to reveal Himself to us (through His Spirit).

Biblical jargon aside, spiritual truth's are revealed, and not found. They are experienced, and not observed by our five senses. I think God wishes us to know Him, and He draws us to His reality, revealing Himself to the degree in which we are ready/willing to receive.

GK

Excellent Gatekeeper....

God simply does give (and takes)

 

[Postmaster]

Mistake......