How do we identify a prophet?

[wil]

While we've got a self proclaimed prophet back on the forum I think it might be an opportune time to discuss how one identifies a prophet.

ie Do they have to die first? I mean for the most part. Sure some folks may be early adopters, but where does the real notoriety come in.

What has happenned in the past.

The sleeping prophet...Edgar Cayce for example.

Or way back, biblical times...

 

[Summia Rahmaan]

While we've got a self proclaimed prophet back on the forum I think it might be an opportune time to discuss how one identifies a prophet.
...

Self proclaimed prophet Here on this forum dear? Dr, Zakir Naik says, "One who claims for prophethood in todays needs a psychiatrist"

 

[iBrian]

Faith - nothing more, nothing less - in the belief that the person really does have a special connection to divinity.

While there may be prescriptions within various religions as to what actually constitutes a prophet or not, there have certainly been a number of people after who set up significantly sized followings based on their own claims.

Heck, look at Christianity - Judaism does not accept that Jesus passes all the tests to be regarded as a major prophet, but it certainly hasn't stop that religion.

The Prophetic experience is a very powerful one, though. Been through it myself, and I could probably still declare myself a prophet and build up a following if I really wanted to, simply on the basis of my past experiences, connections, insights.

But - one of my first spiritual lessons was that of humility, that we are all equal - that to stand apart and above others is very unspiritual - what does bringing attention on the self feed other than the ego? What right does any to claim titles unearned?

There are more subtle ways of playing the system, to get your own message out there - and allow it to be judged on whatever merits or no it may have.

If anyone declares themselves a prophet, it's probably because the spiritual experiences they are going through are so powerful - if your consciousness feels incredibly expanded and made privvy to uncommon knowledge and insights, all within a powerful feelings of spiritual experience, then you rationalise that who else could be capable of receiving these, if not a Prophet?

Yet the title of Prophet I think is one best not declared, but earned, and that peers, humanity, history, become the real judge of who is or may be decided to be a prophet, not based on claims, but by action.

And that, I think is the necessary fruit for anyone claiming to be connected to Divinity, to any degree, at any level, whether claiming prophet hood, or even simple belief. Without works, we give nothing.

2c.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Self proclaimed prophet Here on this forum dear? Dr, Zakir Naik says, "One who claims for prophethood in todays needs a psychiatrist"

hello and a warm welcome to IO


Then it is indeed unfortunate that psychiatry did not develop before religion. That could have saved us a whole lot of bother.

 

[Tao_Equus]

The Prophetic experience is a very powerful one, though. Been through it myself, and I could probably still declare myself a prophet and build up a following if I really wanted to.

Perhaps you should reconsider..... there is a lot of Profit in Prophet.

2c.

Oh a lot more than 2c I would imagine

 

[bananabrain]

i believe that the traditional position is that true biblical-style "neviut" is not available to us on the current network, albeit lesser forms of prophecy are. with that said, it also seems to be the position that anyone can experience "ruah ha-qodesh", jewish or not, provided they have reached that level of spiritual maturity. however, it's harder than we imagine and is not just "given", or available to those.

But - one of my first spiritual lessons was that of humility, that we are all equal - that to stand apart and above others is very unspiritual - what does bringing attention on the self feed other than the ego? What right does any to claim titles unearned?

it's interesting that you put it like that, when the first thing we learned is that to be "a holy nation" the very thing we needed to do was to "dwell apart". the word "kadosh", ("holy"), is intrinsically, etymologically connected to separation. it is not comfortable to be a prophet and it's not comfortable to be around them. but let us not therefore assume that anyone who is not comfortable to be around is ipso facto a prophet.

Yet the title of Prophet I think is one best not declared, but earned

i like that far better. history as a judge.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[bananabrain]

Then it is indeed unfortunate that psychiatry did not develop before religion. That could have saved us a whole lot of bother.

providing of course that psychiatry could understand religion. which it didn't, at least not under freud. all that did was import a load of C19th patronising eurocentric twaddle into the field, rather like anthropology. so now psychiatry is learning to unlearn its prejudices and work out stuff that religion developed an advanced toolset for ages ago.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Tao_Equus]

providing of course that psychiatry could understand religion. which it didn't, at least not under freud. all that did was import a load of C19th patronising eurocentric twaddle into the field, rather like anthropology. so now psychiatry is learning to unlearn its prejudices and work out stuff that religion developed an advanced toolset for ages ago.

b'shalom

bananabrain

It is? What is it saying? That schizophrenics that starve themselves to the point of hallucination really can hear the voice of god?

 

[bananabrain]

moses was working for the high priest of midian as a shepherd when he heard the Voice of G!D - he wasn't exactly starving at the time.

you've read "zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance", surely - the only really good point i read in there was that it's easy to be a prophet on top of a mountain, but far harder when you're on a crowded commute, or words to that effect. i can also assure you that starving yourself is somewhat infrequent in jewish observance. now if there were psychiatric evidence that stuffing yourself with hamin (or cholent for ashkies) on a weekly basis induced religious hallucination rather than terminal flatulence, i might concede that your example had some merit.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[iBrian]

it's interesting that you put it like that, when the first thing we learned is that to be "a holy nation" the very thing we needed to do was to "dwell apart". the word "kadosh", ("holy"), is intrinsically, etymologically connected to separation. it is not comfortable to be a prophet and it's not comfortable to be around them. but let us not therefore assume that anyone who is not comfortable to be around is ipso facto a prophet.

We are all born and die as human - what happens inbetween merely makes us different.

It's interesting because an integral part of Judaism is that the Jewish people have a special relationship with God - but as you've stated before, this does not mean Jews may regard themselves as inherently superior to other peoples, as much as having different responsibilities.

It is? What is it saying? That schizophrenics that starve themselves to the point of hallucination really can hear the voice of god?

I think at best the argument that if there is God and people can experience the Divine, then it will inevitably through a human and personal subjective filter.

The incomprehensible cannot be easily comprehended.

Hence if people do feel in touch with the Divine, they will inevitably do so through mechanisms that help the experience make more sense to them personally and culturally.

I always felt that the spiritual experience often had to use mechanisms such as analogy and metaphor for the human mind to relate to it, and that some people who claim the experience become so fixated on these mechanisms that they saw them as realities in themselves. Some simply cannot cope with the direct attack to perceived reality and shut down, merely echoing fragments from a confused state. The challenge has always been to try and see past these mechanisms for the deeper underlying experience.

Of course, the converse argument is indeed that it is merely a biomechanical process producing a wholly subjective experience - I think psychology labels it as "Temporal Lobe Epilepsy", which rather names, than explains, the process.

Even still, as above, I think anyone undergoing any form of altered consciousness - whether through ascetic, spiritual, or intoxication processes - will inevitably relate difference experiences from a subjective base.

Whether there is an objective truth or no in any of this remains the debate, but I should think that if you put all of these together, and concentrated on the shared concepts rather than details, perhaps you might find the nearest we can get to Truth.

Another 2c.

 

[lunamoth]

Yet the title of Prophet I think is one best not declared, but earned, and that peers, humanity, history, become the real judge of who is or may be decided to be a prophet, not based on claims, but by action.

And that, I think is the necessary fruit for anyone claiming to be connected to Divinity, to any degree, at any level, whether claiming prophet hood, or even simple belief. Without works, we give nothing.

2c.

Excellent point nicely said.

 

[Summia Rahmaan]

hello and a warm welcome to IO


Then it is indeed unfortunate that psychiatry did not develop before religion. That could have saved us a whole lot of bother.

Thanks for your warm welcomes dear fellow!

Yeah! if we had psychiatry since relgion been developed, then surely they could have save us from all those apostals baptized in Holy Spirit

 

[Summia Rahmaan]

The Prophetic experience is a very powerful one, though. Been through it myself, and I could probably still declare myself a prophet and build up a following if I really wanted to, simply on the basis of my past experiences, connections, insights.

.

If so, then I too have a right to declare myself as prophet, I visited paradise live in my open eyes, I visited many unexpected things alive, yet you are adversary in this contest to me. I think we need votings to propose who is real prophet indeed.

 

[Francis king]

a prophet? where? show me, show me!!

 

[Summia Rahmaan]

a prophet? where? show me, show me!!

O no dear fellow! prophet never makes show off. You have to search for him .

 

[Tao_Equus]

If so, then I too have a right to declare myself as prophet, I visited paradise live in my open eyes, I visited many unexpected things alive, yet you are adversary in this contest to me. I think we need votings to propose who is real prophet indeed.

You saw paradise with open eyes!! When exactly did you meet me? Surely not by the dashboard lights!!

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

moses was working for the high priest of midian as a shepherd when he heard the Voice of G!D - he wasn't exactly starving at the time.

you've read "zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance", surely - the only really good point i read in there was that it's easy to be a prophet on top of a mountain, but far harder when you're on a crowded commute, or words to that effect. i can also assure you that starving yourself is somewhat infrequent in jewish observance. now if there were psychiatric evidence that stuffing yourself with hamin (or cholent for ashkies) on a weekly basis induced religious hallucination rather than terminal flatulence, i might concede that your example had some merit.

b'shalom

bananabrain

Horrible book. The guy thinks he's superior to his friend because he's got an older motorcycle and it breaks down all time and he knows how to fix it. His kid is a bedwetter, and later on we find out that the guy had some kind of mental breakdown that he doesn't ever get around to actually describing.

Chris

 

[17th Angel]

Profits?

My rule of thumb to get an ID... I ask myself...... Is it in his eyes? Oh, no... You need to see... Is it in his size? Oh no you make believe...If you wanna know if he is for sho it's in his kiss! That's where it is!

*nods*



Nonsense? Well... So are profits lol.....

 

[Postmaster]

I like some of the points in this thread.. People like Edward Casey I find fascinating, he really did have a gift of healing and giving good advice, heck he even gave someone advice on the stock exchange which made them wealthy, however the consequence of him giving his foresight used to result in him suffering from fatigue and migraines yet he still persisted in helping the needy. Philosophers like Socrates, Plato, Hypocrites and Pythagoras could they be described as prophets also? Maybe. How about scientist’s, maybe? I think far more people deserve the status prophet them we realize, the true prophets are the ones who remain most humble about their services towards humanity which to me leads more towards an agnostic view of life. One who can use the wonders of reason as the most important mystical tool and create something spectacular like penicillin or radio therapy and not claim to be anymore superior is a true prophet, or someone who writes something like the origin of species and totally destroying genesis and not claim to be anymore superior is a true prophet. To me the prophets in religion are people motivated in dismantling superior political forces of the day they lay political foundations that leads humanity to flourish or do they?

 

[17th Angel]

Mystical tools?? Penicillin was an accident lol.... Right?