Organized Atheism (And so it begins...)

[Bandit]

I find that some people are determined to define atheism as a religion and refuse to budge from that. Sometimes its almost like they need it to be that way as a prop for their own insecurities in their faith. Even if atheists form into a significant formal lobby they will not be a religion. An atheist can never be religious, no matter how hard you want it to be that way. As a bumper sticker Wil linked to said, "ATHEISM IS MYTH UNDERSTOOD". And it is. Persistently.

I would not give 2 cents either way if it is a religion or if it is not.

but, What about the federal courts decision in wisconsin to rule atheism as a valid religion to a prison inmate in 2005?

 

[citizenzen]

As a bumper sticker Wil linked to said, "ATHEISM IS MYTH UNDERSTOOD". And it is. Persistently.

I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[Avi]

Bandit, you seem like a good guy to me, so I do not want to be critical, but there are lots of errors in your thinking below (sorry to be so direct).

Quote: Avi
Hi Bandit, were did you get this idea from, that Jews are anti - Christ ?

it is because the jewish religion says so.

Wrong, the Jewish scripture says nothing about Christ. So it does not say anything anti - Christ. Torah and Haftorah pre-date Christ by 500 - 2000 years.

Quote: Bandit
Why take things out of context like that? it was to demonstrate something as to how everyone is against something and not being for something does not mean it can't be for something else.

This part is fine. I would agree that everyone is against something. It just happens that the example you chose was a bad one. That is why I disagreed.

Do you really need me to answer your question? if you were born into one of the jewish religions then you should already know there is zero tolerance for christ in the jewish religions.

I was born a Conservative Jew and about 10 years ago I became a Reform Jew. Speaking for myself, I do not have zero tolerance for Christ. I do not know where this idea came from. There are some legitimate issues that I would be glad to discuss, for example whether Christ was the Messiah. Jews do not believe that. But I certainly am tolerant about Christian belief. That is what interfaith dialogue is about.

jesus is an apostate and a heretic, he is bad and did not fill the jewish prophecy and yadi yadi yada. you must have nothing to do with jesus the christ if you wish to be in the jewish religion or you will be dealt with.

I disagree with all of these points. Was Jesus a heretic and apostate ? Perhaps this was believed by Pharasee Jewish leadership in 30 C.E., but do we still think the same way 2000 years later ? I do not believe that is the case.

Jews also do not like nativity scenes at Christmas and complain about them. It makes the headlines somewhere every year.

My understanding is that this issue is more related to separation of Church and State. Most Jews who have complained about nativity scenes are concerned about nativity scenes placed on public property. Anything done on private property is the business of that individual.

Years ago I had a jewish boss who also complained about the crosses in front of peoples churches and made fun of them.

There are prejudiced people of all religions and races. Does that mean that we all think that way . I hope not.

After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him. jn 7:1

Bandit, are you really going to use New Testament scripture to try to convince me that Jews are anti -Christ ? That makes no sense.

I have read it in other bible scriptures as well including the OT.

Go ahead if you like, cite the OT scripture and we can discuss. None of OT anticipated Christ, so it will be difficult for you to do this successully.

It turns out there are some references in Isaiah and other similar Haftorah scripture which Jews interpret as predictive of the coming of the Messiah and Christians interpret as predicting the coming of Christ. I will be glad to discuss this scripture if you like. Actually, we were discussing some of these issues in the Theology sub-forum recently.

They hate the very thought of even the possibility of accepting christ as the korban pesach....and because I personally know enough jews who have left that religion to know that jews in the jewish religion are not for christ and are not allowed to be for christ in any way, shape or form.

So you are going to cite Jews who have left Judaism who said that Judaism is anti-Christ ? Why not ask Jews who are still Jewish

By the way, I still have a lot to learn about Native American Indians. I hope we can both keep an open mind and try to learn more about each others cultures.

 

[Bandit]

Bandit, are you really going to use New Testament scripture to try to convince me that Jews are anti -Christ ? Please, are you serious

You asked me a question and I answered it from the way I see it. If you wanted me to answer fromm the way you see it, then you should have said so.

and no, I am not trying to convince you of anything, simply answering your question as to why jews are anti-christ.

So you are going to cite Jews who have left Judaism who said that Judaism is anti-Christ ? Why not ask Jews who are still Jewish

Just because someone leaves a religion does not mean that they know less about it than those who stay.

 

[Avi]

Quote: Avi
Hi Bandit, were did you get this idea from, that Jews are anti - Christ ?

lol... I hope that wuz a joke, cuz that was klassic

C0de - go ahead, you seem to have something on your mind ... ?

 

[c0de]

C0de - go ahead, you seem to have something on your mind ... ?

Honestly, I actually did think you were joking. But apparently you weren't. Which is fine, I mean, but personally, I always found the Judeo-Christian "solidarity" as something quite comical.

Considering the Christians think that Jesus PBUH will return to convert all the Jews and erase Judaism from the Earth. And the Jews thinking they successfully crucified Jesus PBUH, and thereby proving that he was not the messiah. The whole idea of a "Judeo-Christianity" is actually a very recent (politicially conveniant) phenomenon... as I am sure you are already aware.

 

[ciberpy]

I find that some people are determined to define atheism as a religion and refuse to budge from that. Sometimes its almost like they need it to be that way as a prop for their own insecurities in their faith. Even if atheists form into a significant formal lobby they will not be a religion.

I find that some people are determined to define God by a religion and refuse to budge from that. Sometimes its almost like they need God to be that way as a prop for their own insecurities in their lack of faith. Even if religionists form into a significant formal lobby, they will not have a higher hand over those who admit they don't see God.

Who can fault an atheist, really... for stating what they honestly do not see and believe? It seems to me far better than the religionist, who falsely states what they merely want to see and believe. Perhaps though, Tao... that it is more like those women that we discussed who you claimed do not wish to really know the truth. But if they spoke and claimed true what was not really true, then maybe we should help inform them of their error? Perhaps? The ignorance might be bliss, but speaking that ignorance as gospel won't exactly make the fantasy real... right?

I find that speaking about God is a lot like speaking about good sex. There is a fine line bordering around gossip and taboo. A person could tell another person all about sex, from their perspective of course, but if a person does not know then they still will NOT know, no matter what is said. It is like trying to inform a person of their ignorance. In the religionist corner we have these virgins telling us how great sex is, but in this atheist corner we have these virgins informing us that sex does not even exist. Who will be convinced, and what good will it really do? Perhaps it is almost as bad as the group that organizes so emphatically to tell the children that sex really does exist, because they just know it, but that the children are not really mature enough to have it so don't even think about it yet. Brilliant... do the kids ever line up to ask how they can become more mature? It is a real pickle... talking about sex... or, about the sex that does not exist.

 

[Avi]

Honestly, I actually did think you were joking. But apparently you weren't. Which is fine, I mean, but personally, I always found the Judeo-Christian "solidarity" as something quite comical.

I do not represent myself as speaking for any large group, but I believe that my views are consistent with modern Reform Jewish beliefs.

I was also not trying to present any idea of Judeo-Christian "solidarity". Although if what you mean by that is dispelling all the false notions of the past, I am for that.

You are probably aware the Vatican II changed the paradigm of Christian - Jewish relations. I believe that my beliefs are consistent with this new paradigm.

Considering the Christians think that Jesus PBUH will return to convert all the Jews and erase Judaism from the Earth.

I would be interested to hear if some of the Christian posters believe this.

And the Jews thinking they successfully crucified Jesus PBUH, and thereby proving that he was not the messiah.

Which Jews are you referring to ? I do not believe this. I think it was a huge mistake for the Romans to kill Jesus. And I think the Pharasee Jewish leadership were wrong in the role they played in this episode.

The whole idea of a "Judeo-Christianity" is actually a very recent (politicially conveniant) phenomenon... as I am sure you are already aware.

Of course it is a new approach, made possible by Vatican II. I personally welcome the change because countless Jews were massacred for 2000 years because of the environment that existed at that time.

So C0de, I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this issue.

 

[Bandit]

Honestly, I actually did think you were joking. But apparently you weren't. Which is fine, I mean, but personally, I always found the Judeo-Christian "solidarity" as something quite comical.

Considering the Christians think that Jesus PBUH will return to convert all the Jews and erase Judaism from the Earth. And the Jews thinking they successfully crucified Jesus PBUH, and thereby proving that he was not the messiah. The whole idea of a "Judeo-Christianity" is actually a very recent (politicially conveniant) phenomenon... as I am sure you are already aware.

It is recent and politically conveniant.
I can picture the whole thing happening today & they would say "we didn't do it" & "we dont believe that"...same boat shipwrecked as it ever was.

Kind of like my son at 10 trying to convince me, it was someone else, not me.

 

[c0de]

@ Avi + Bandit


You know, on second thought, I rather just let this one slide... The thing is, I am not a Jew, nor a Christian so my participation in this argument is a little off the mark.

But mostly, I don't really want to sow dissension between any Jews or Christians here, and such discussions are a little... divisive.. So I think i'm just gonna shut up about this issue.

 

[Bandit]

You are probably aware the Vatican II changed the paradigm of Christian - Jewish relations. I believe that my beliefs are consistent with this new paradigm.

Why would you trust that?
nothing has changed today from the way the romans & jews were then, no matter how much you think the vatican and jews are wheeling and dealing, it is all high shine gloss from save big money at Menards.

 

[Avi]

Bandit and C0de,

Here is an interesting excerpt about this issue that I found in wiki:

Christian Scholars Group

The Christian Scholars Group on Christian-Jewish Relations,[1] a group of 22 Christian scholars, theologians, historians and clergy from six Christian Protestant denominations and the Roman Catholic Church, which works to "develop more adequate Christian theologies of the church's relationship to Judaism and the Jewish people."
The group issued a statement in September 2002, "A Sacred Obligation: Rethinking Christian Faith in Relation to Judaism and the Jewish People", which states, in part:



"For most of the past two thousand years, Christians have erroneously portrayed Jews as unfaithful, holding them collectively responsible for the death of Jesus and therefore accursed by God. In agreement with many official Christian declarations, we reject this accusation as historically false and theologically invalid. It suggests that God can be unfaithful to the eternal covenant with the Jewish people. We acknowledge with shame the suffering this distorted portrayal has brought upon the Jewish people.... We believe that revising Christian teaching about Judaism and the Jewish people is a central and indispensable obligation of theology in our time." They then offer ten positions, with detailed explanations, "for the consideration of our fellow Christians. We urge all Christians to reflect on their faith in light of these statements." The ten positions, in brief, are:

1. God's covenant with the Jewish people endures forever, see also Dual-covenant theology.
2. Jesus of Nazareth lived and died as a faithful Jew, see also Historical Jesus.
3. Ancient rivalries must not define Christian-Jewish relations today.
4. Judaism is a living faith, enriched by many centuries of development.
5. The Bible both connects and separates Jews and Christians.
6. Affirming God's enduring covenant with the Jewish people has consequences for Christian understandings of salvation.
7. Christians should not target Jews for conversion.
8. Christian worship that teaches contempt for Judaism dishonors God.
9. We affirm the importance of the land of Israel for the life of the Jewish people.
10. Christians should work with Jews for the healing of the world.

(The statement may or may not reflect the views of the scholars' various denominations)

Ref: Christian-Jewish reconciliation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I look forward to your interpretations of these statements.

 

[Bandit]

@ Avi + Bandit


You know, on second thought, I rather just let this one slide... The thing is, I am not a Jew, nor a Christian so my participation in this argument is a little off the mark.

But mostly, I don't really want to sow dissension between any Jews or Christians here, and such discussions are a little... divisive.. So I think i'm just gonna shut up about this issue.

If someone asks you, then it is different. You aren't that far off base as far as I am concerned but I also don't blame you because talking about this stuff resolves nothing. I see a lot of sticky webs built where they aren't really interested in someone else view anyway. The question mark does not mean a whole lot and can mean anything around here. I am neither jew or christian either, doesn't mean I dont have an educated opinion.

 

[Bandit]

Bandit and C0de,





I look forward to your interpretations of these statements.

It sounds like the judeao-christian religion.

 

[Avi]

@ Avi + Bandit


You know, on second thought, I rather just let this one slide... The thing is, I am not a Jew, nor a Christian so my participation in this argument is a little off the mark.

But mostly, I don't really want to sow dissension between any Jews or Christians here, and such discussions are a little... divisive.. So I think i'm just gonna shut up about this issue.

C0de, I understand your position and appreciate your restraint.

I do not think you are sowing dissention between Bandit and myself. Actually, I like talking with Bandit, even if we disagree. We come from very different histories, so it is not surprising that we would have different views.

From my perspective, interfaith dialogue is about complex engagement. It is through this type of discussion that both sides and learn and grow.

Peace to you.

 

[citizenzen]

If someone asks you, then it is different. You aren't that far off base as far as I am concerned but I also don't blame you because talking about this stuff resolves nothing. I see a lot of sticky webs built where they aren't really interested in someone else view anyway. The question mark does not mean a whole lot and can mean anything around here. I am neither jew or christian either, doesn't mean I dont have an educated opinion.

And yet you made a number of assertions about the Jewish Faith that Avi1223 is attempting to help clarify and you seem less interested in hearing his position.

I would urge you to not worry about the sticky webs and engage him openly. We all might learn something.

 

[Avi]

If someone asks you, then it is different. You aren't that far off base as far as I am concerned but I also don't blame you because talking about this stuff resolves nothing. I see a lot of sticky webs built where they aren't really interested in someone else view anyway. The question mark does not mean a whole lot and can mean anything around here. I am neither jew or christian either, doesn't mean I dont have an educated opinion.

Bandit, I think talking about this stuff does resolve things. And I think most of the people here are interested in hearing others views.

Also, I think you have a very educated opinion.

Peace to you

 

[c0de]

I see a lot of sticky webs built where they aren't really interested in someone else view anyway.

speaking of webs... guess who's runnin' a little short


[youtube]0uZX60akANU&feature=related[/youtube]

 

[citizenzen]

Also, I think you have a very educated opinion.

The jury's still out on that one.

 

[ciberpy]

As the analogy goes: did the Jews throw stones at Jesus, or did Jesus throw stones at the Jews?