Fear in the God Fearing

[Tao_Equus]

[/b]

You compensated that feelings of immortality by your sons and actions.... ...You feel you are immortal..Your body is mortal, but your soul is not.

I have no personal sense of immortality. All I meant is that whether I like it or not I have had some fractional influence on the way life unfolds and expresses itself on this planet. That is now irreversible. I have existed. I always will have existed. I have no desire nor expectation for even my name to be remembered beyond my sons or grandchildren. Though my every action may be of potential influence the actuality is that the odds of any significant action making any tangible difference to the whole is so remote as to be almost zero. I am not infected with a Warholian angst for my 15 minutes of stardom. I just enjoy looking at what there is to see. I nurture a role as a spectator, my ego requires no recognition.

If that body is going to return to its world: dust, that spirit is also going to return to its world.

I do not believe in spirit or soul in the sense that there is a part of our conciousness that survives death. And I know you can have no evidence for such a notion outside of you own will to believe it. For if you did you would be the first amongst the billions of those that profess such a belief to actually produce any proof. Since such a belief has no material or mental benefit to me in my actual existence I see no value holding it. And given that I am capable of evaluating evidence it would be a shame to waste that capacity.

The Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) said: "No human's will move from his station of accounting until he is asked about four things: (1) his lifetime, how did he consume it, (2) his body, how did he wear it out, (3) his knowledge, how did he use it, and (4) his wealth, how did he earn it and how did he spend it."

How do you know he said such things? He could not read or write, allegedly. His 'sayings' were, allegedly, collected by Uthman and many were destroyed, the remaining compilation is your Koran. Since this took place some 80 years after Muhammad I would say the chances you can trust what is quoted as being of his mouth is fractious. Given the Korans many self-contradictions and abrigations it is certainly far from perfect. Though I realise believers see the opposite I think I know why they do so and can present a good argument as to why.

you in other words declare that you have a clearcut evidence that there is no god..no creator of you, and this amzaing world by its earth, heavens, people, animals, mountains, oceans, plants...

I see every evidence that the entirety of creation is infinitely complex and driven by entropy and rebirth with some evolutionary imperative ever present. There is no creator required to explain anything. The scientific godless explanations are invariably far more observationally/factually accurate. There is mountains of evidence to say that the universe has no sentient program and its complexity hints that it could not have one. Every religious creator is no more than mans magnified ego taking credit for all we see.

Of course, brother, we must do so. Living life doesnt mean emerging in a pure matrialistic life which contributes to the pleasure of that mortal body. In other words, matrialistic pleausre is a mortal pleasure.

Pleasure is pleasure. Take it where you can find it. There are people who have perverse pleasures of course, and so we have human laws to deal with them. Gods law is just superfulous and can and very often does actually compound the incidence of pereversity.

but dont forget the Last Day...

It will be a short otherwise unimportant one. What use is there dwelling on it?

You have no evidence that what I believe in is superstition.

I believe I have reams and reams worth of evidence.

Plus, my fear from God brings equilibrium to my life cause any human being is very weak in front of temptations. Fear of God gives me strength and willingness to pass the test.

There is no test. Perhaps the vision of reality I have gives me the strength you find in a personified ideal. I know that you would probably class some things as sins that I would not. Others we would agree on. I am not tempted to murder, injure, steal nor prevent ANY individual from doing what they want to do as long as they like me, seek no harm over others. I do not need a god to be a reasonably decent primate within the human troupe. In that sense religion is useless to me.

Yet, in moments of great temptations, love may be weakned due to the rise of instinct, then fear here plays a very important role in bringing one back to his balance, and not doing bad.

Mostly I prefer to trust my instincts. They are not static pejoratively bestial traits but the honed distillilation of experience. Some pleasures do carry some risk of conflict, infidelity for example, but such rare temptation to pleasure if carried out with discernment can be one of the greatest pleasures of all.

By the way, I see this bitterness and sadness that these people experience as a clear sing of divine mercy and love...

Lets take the case of an infidelity. If exposed there are 'innocent' third party's in every case. Someone always gets hurt. But mating instinct and love will always prevail over an emotional hurt. Most of us in the west fall in love a few times and would not contemplate marrying someone we did not feel we loved. We fall out of love almost as often as in though. In my experience you engage in an infidelity because you find love and pleasure in a physical experience with someone other than your official partner. You do so because you either love more than one person or do not have the love to hold you committed to your recognised partner. In more traditional societies like yours in Morocco religion has developed to provide faithful, obedient brides for loveless relationships. The taboos are strong and heavy because the bond of love that brings true faithfulness is absent from the outset. They are not god given taboos, they are societal.

If only you could see, Tao? If only you could know, Tao? I have never ever seen a vengeanful parent though he/she may punish his/her children. It is all for their benefit.

!! I cannot believe you said that !! How untrue. There are so very many terribly cruel parents. Believing such a thing you would be doing a great disservice to so many children.

God is need of us. He is all Strong...Yet, he never stops His bestowing on us because of a sin..

So god needs us? Then he will have to be a better person to be accepted by me Outside of human action there is no benevolence in this universe that we know of. We created it not god. It is ours, not gods. It is our credit. Not gods.


We come from very different worlds. I have visited Tangiers, Cassablanca and Marakesh so I have seen a glimpse of yours and enjoyed the experience enormously. Yet growing up where I did in a city at the cutting edge of western intellectualism I cannot share your experience, your understandings and motivations. I am the product of my place and space in time. And I will enjoy its brief expression more fully than any generation before me because my society has created the tools to allow me to do so. Evolution is in action and bestows on us the tools to solve every problem. Gods hamper and tie as to the monolithic certitudes of our pastoral village history. We live in a new village now, all of us. The global village. The shade tree is our internet terminals. Some desert god has no place in my life and it would be rather naive of you to think it ever could.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Hey Tao,Assuming that there is a physical reality or that the universe is a seperate thing out there, that would perhaps be true, and I am considering that it could be! As I have learned from this site, it is good to be open to different opinions, and at least consider them before automatically rejecting them as true on the sole basis that it does not confirm my own view. Now, lets carry over your proposal of the truth of death to the following scenario:

Lets assume that I died a few minutes ago, and then you observe my dead body.

You see me as dead. You consider it a fact that people are born, and then people die. Thats just the way it is. Still, I am considering the biocentric theory of the universe, which says that you are creating the appearance of me being dead. In other words, your brain is creating physical reality. From the biocentric perspective of the universe, death is an illusion. *Oops, when considering your point of view, I just say something that is completely insane* After reading a little on the subject of consciousness, it is easy to discover that this is a complex issue. Tao, you do a good job in explaining the functionality of consciousness, but there is a deeper problem of explaining how consciousness is experienced . . .

"Consciousness has nothing to do with physcial structure or function per se. It is like the stem of the ground pine, there reaching through the earth at a hundred places, drawing its existence from the temporal reality of perceptions in time," say Robert Lanza.

I love to play with such mental exercises. But, at least for the time being, such ideas are just the speculation at the interface between physics and metaphysics. They are just the postulations of our wonderfully creative minds. I do not doubt that the universe has some truly weird stuff going on in it. But no matter how weird it is I do not believe for a moment we are its epicentre. That is the same anthropomorphism that leads to inventing gods.

 

[c0de]

Should I "fear" my own "children", or your "children" instead? Do I have time for both?

If you don't want to answer, or qualify your own remark, just say so. This isn't an interrogation. You seemed like you had something on your mind, that is why I posed the question to you.

 

[ciberpy]

If you don't want to answer, or qualify your own remark, just say so. This isn't an interrogation. You seemed like you had something on your mind, that is why I posed the question to you.

The child of a belief will be a perfected match for a parent to contend with.

 

[dailogue is the best]

Peace,Tao

Sorry for being late in replying, but my computer took a rest of almost one week..May be it is its labour Day holiday..

I do not believe in spirit or soul in the sense that there is a part of our conciousness that survives death. And I know you can have no evidence for such a notion outside of you own will to believe it. For if you did you would be the first amongst the billions of those that profess such a belief to actually produce any proof.

Well, Tao, you sleep everyday, and during your sleep, your body rests, but there is something else that doesnt stop working. It is the soul/the spirit, Tao. How many times have people have dreams that come true? Were these dreams really "dreams" or "visions"? If they are visions, then what the source of these visions? From where do these visions have insights? It is with the connection with that supernatural you dont believe in...

According to the Quran death and sleep are alike. God said: Allah takes the souls at the time of their death, and that, which has not died in its sleep; He withholds that against which He has decreed death, but releases the other till a stated term (al-Zumar 39: 42)...

Since you feel the dreams and you see the vision while your body is like a dead, this simply means that spirit/soul is a real fact that survives the limitness of the body.

How can we proove that asleep person is a dead one?! Well, Tao, that was a task that Prof. Arthur Alison, the head of the Department of Electrical and Electronic Engineering in the University of London and For several years he had been the president of the British Society for Psychological and Spiritual Studies, came to prove.

Prof Abdullah Alison added that he, along with Dr Mohammed Yahya, had presented in the conference on the Medical Inimitability in the Qur’an a paper focusing on the meaning of the Qur’anic verse: “it is Allah Who takes away the souls at the time of their death; and those that die not during their sleep He keeps those (souls) for which He has ordained death and sends back the rest for a term appointed. Verily, in this are signs for a people who think deeply.” (39:42)

Through this verse, he said, they could prove that death and sleep are similar phenomena in which souls depart from the body. In the case of sleep, the soul returns to the body but in death it does not. This verse reminds us that “taking the souls” means both sleep and death. This fact has been proved through parapsychological studies which are related to three main domains:

Out of Body Experience
Some persons are reported to have this experience in which they found their bodies in some other place or lying on a bed. Studies have revealed that about 10 to 20 per cent of the cases subjected to study had this experience.

Dreams
When some persons dream, they know that they are dreaming. Experiments have proved that sleep is the departure of the soul from the body.

source: Prof. Arthur Alison To Islam - www.TurnToIslam.com

I see every evidence that the entirety of creation is infinitely complex and driven by entropy and rebirth with some evolutionary imperative ever present. There is no creator required to explain anything. The scientific godless explanations are invariably far more observationally/factually accurate. There is mountains of evidence to say that the universe has no sentient program and its complexity hints that it could not have one. Every religious creator is no more than mans magnified ego taking credit for all we see.

Well, brother, I find the following verse presents a full answer to you:

[10:35]....Say, "GOD guides to the truth. Is one who guides to the truth more worthy of being followed, or one who does not guide, and needs guidance for himself? What is wrong with your judgment?"

Brain is so limited to know the truth, Tao, It is all the time restricted by what is given. It cant guide unless it is guiden. It cant show unless it is shown. You have to admit that many scientific theories have cahnged because of the new findindgs. God alone is the right guider who guides to the pure truth. We submit to our Lord, and He shows us the truth, and gives the right guidance..

... In that sense religion is useless to me.

The ultimate purpose of religion is to get the creatures to their creator...getting rid of evil traits then come out of love to this creator, out of fear losing His connection...

Mostly I prefer to trust my instincts. They are not static pejoratively bestial traits but the honed distillilation of experience. Some pleasures do carry some risk of conflict, infidelity for example, but such rare temptation to pleasure if carried out with discernment can be one of the greatest pleasures of all.

So you wouldnt worry if someone was infidel to you?

God said:
[4:27] And God wants to pardon you, but those who follow desires want that you would be diverted into a great diversion.
[4:28] God wants to make easy for you; and mankind was created weak.

Man is weak, and if he/she doesnt seek God's help, he/she is for sure to sin...


Most of us in the west fall in love a few times and would not contemplate marrying someone we did not feel we loved. We fall out of love almost as often as in though. In my experience you engage in an infidelity because you find love and pleasure in a physical experience with someone other than your official partner. You do so because you either love more than one person or do not have the love to hold you committed to your recognised partner. [/quote]

Oh, shall I understand from this that it is genetic that man needs more than one woman..

Anyway, Tao, we sacrifice to get near our beloved, right? you get my point, I think... For a true believer, anything that gets us away from our beloved no matter how sweet it "seems", he/she negelects it. For there is a beloved of the beloved that he/she is most interested and submitting To...

If you submit to your lusts and desires, then you worship them. A true believer submitts to only one direction...one beloved: God... He gives us the strenght to overcome all the temptation...

!! I cannot believe you said that !! How untrue. There are so very many terribly cruel parents. Believing such a thing you would be doing a great disservice to so many children.

Well, Tao, when I said parents, I mean "parents" who are really taking their moral responsibilities seriously...

[quote[ So god needs us? Then he will have to be a better person to be accepted by me Outside of human action there is no benevolence in this universe that we know of. [/quote]

If you have read my words clearly, you would have noticed that I forgotten "not" after " He is...". God is not in need of us, Tao, Yet, He cares about us. Look at the following verse.

God said:
[39:7] If you disbelieve, GOD does not need anyone. But He dislikes to see His servants make the wrong decision. If you decide to be appreciative, He is pleased for you. No soul bears the sins of any other soul. Ultimately, to your Lord is your return, then He will inform you of everything you had done. He is fully aware of the innermost thoughts.



We come from very different worlds. I have visited Tangiers, Cassablanca and Marakesh so I have seen a glimpse of yours and enjoyed the experience enormously...[/quote]

Nice to hear that, Tao. I live in Tetouan, the city next Tangier..

So, you have seen glimpse of me..The last glimpse I ve seen of a scotish person was that of Susan Boyle....The nature in Scotland is wonderful, right?

 

[Vajradhara]

Fearing negative karma similar to fearing to God.

Namaste postmaster,

thank you for the post.

karma is not negative or positive, it is skillful or unskillful.

you are speaking about Vipaka, the fruit of karma, which can be positive or negative.

i would tend to agree, however, fear over negative Vipaka would tend to be superfically no different than fear of a deity... of course one of those is another being and one of those is our own actions... i'm pretty certain that at least one of those things i have a modicum of control over.

metta,

~v

 

[dailogue is the best]

Is there a life after death? Find out how a wise man answered this question:

YouTube - Islamic Meditation

 

[Tao_Equus]

Tao. How many times have people have dreams that come true?

Verifiably never. But I know why you thinks so because I used to think that way too. And then I tried to prove it to the sceptics. And not only did I fail I learned that there are mechanisms that we employ in such beliefs that are simply poor or wishful thinking. Selective reasoning is not good reasoning. Now I wish I was wrong, I have been trying to dream lotto numbers for years.

source: Prof. Arthur Alison To Islam - www.TurnToIslam.com

Quack quack. Scientists are only human, they go nuts sometimes.

Well, brother, I find the following verse presents a full answer to you:

[10:35]....Say, "GOD guides to the truth. Is one who guides to the truth more worthy of being followed, or one who does not guide, and needs guidance for himself? What is wrong with your judgment?"

Brain is so limited to know the truth, Tao, It is all the time restricted by what is given. It cant guide unless it is guiden. It cant show unless it is shown. You have to admit that many scientific theories have cahnged because of the new findindgs. God alone is the right guider who guides to the pure truth. We submit to our Lord, and He shows us the truth, and gives the right guidance..

Superstition of guidance and influence are just that, superstition. We have a great set of cognitive tools that evolved as they have to enable us the ability to think laterally. Nowhere but nowhere except in the selective superstition of the wilfully embracing is there any evidence for any interference of any kind.

The ultimate purpose of religion is to get the creatures to their creator...getting rid of evil traits then come out of love to this creator, out of fear losing His connection...

You love the creator? Or you love the words in a book? The Koran is peppered with linguistic devices to incite fear and subservience. They are a rather baisc and naive, yet highly effective, set of psychological tools. They reek of the sweat of man and have nothing to suggest extraordinary source. They are the basic laws of holding political authority via religion.

So you wouldnt worry if someone was infidel to you?

I would not enter into a relationship without a high degree of mutual understanding and I am past all the procreative reasoning behind sexual jealousy. I do not want more kids. I would hope that my choice of partner is wise enough that they are intelligent enough and respectful enough not to do it under my nose. I am back to only having a single lover and knowing her expressive sexuality I presume that although I am her main lover she possibly has more. But I do not ask. I enjoy the time we share together and have no wish nor need to police her life when she is not with me.

Oh, shall I understand from this that it is genetic that man needs more than one woman..

Needs is the wrong word. However men are physically evolved to take advantage of every opportunity.

If you submit to your lusts and desires, then you worship them. A true believer submitts to only one direction...one beloved: God... He gives us the strenght to overcome all the temptation...

Hedonism has a bad press. Truth for me is I will be a long time dead. Better enjoy life as opportunity arises.

Well, Tao, when I said parents, I mean "parents" who are really taking their moral responsibilities seriously...

You mean like the parents of this little girl? Now if I was President of the World the parents of that child would be charged with child abuse.
YouTube - 2 Year Old Girl Answering Questions About Islam! [Must See!]

If you have read my words clearly, you would have noticed that I forgotten "not" after " He is...". God is not in need of us, Tao, Yet, He cares about us. Look at the following verse.

But there is no HE. Never has been never will be. How do I know? Because I can see this was all written by men with an agenda.

God said:
[39:7] If you disbelieve, GOD does not need anyone. But He dislikes to see His servants make the wrong decision. If you decide to be appreciative, He is pleased for you. No soul bears the sins of any other soul. Ultimately, to your Lord is your return, then He will inform you of everything you had done. He is fully aware of the innermost thoughts.

This god of yours has no humility and no respect for even my thoughts! I do not understand how people like you can actually believe such nonsense. It is nothing short of psychotic.

So, you have seen glimpse of me..The last glimpse I ve seen of a scotish person was that of Susan Boyle....

We are not all as sexy as she is

The nature in Scotland is wonderful, right?

It can be, though it is, being covered in mile high glaciers until 10,000 years ago, not very species rich. To you it would appear incredibly green. But for sure it has some amazing little corners.

Fairy Glen, Isle of Skye:

 

[dailogue is the best]

Verifiably never. But I know why you thinks so because I used to think that way too. And then I tried to prove it to the sceptics. And not only did I fail I learned that there are mechanisms that we employ in such beliefs that are simply poor or wishful thinking. Selective reasoning is not good reasoning. Now I wish I was wrong, I have been trying to dream lotto numbers for years.

Well, Tao, you have your own beliefs and I have mine. According to my religion, dreams can be ego's thinkings, devil's wishper, or visions. We believe that there are dreams that come true. The more your heart is clean and pure, the more it can draw and recieve knowledge from God, including that of knowing about the coming events. The prophet Muhammed peace be upon him said: “Verily the vision of a believer is one of the forty-sixth part of prophecy” ..

I think Tao you are trying to escape anything that may create that doubt that there is a supernatural power dealing with us. That's why you are doing your best to fill everything into the box of the non existence of God...

Not all dreams are/were wishful thinking....Who wishes for himself or others to have accidents for instance?!

I am sure, Tao, that some people had dreams that transcends the limitness of their wish and their environment and though it materialized. Saying that these dreams are wishful thinking is like pouring water into sands. It sounds really odd.

I do agree that some dreams are really wishful thinking, and as far as these dreams are concerned, I dont think that anyone needs anybody to tell him/her that those are wishful thinking...

Quack quack. Scientists are only human, they go nuts sometimes.

Again, Tao, the escape from facing anything that may say there is a presence of a supernatural power...How can you ignore the reasonable scientific facts prestented by Prof. Alison?! Is it just beacuse his facts supported the existence of a supernatural power...

Superstition of guidance and influence are just that, superstition. We have a great set of cognitive tools that evolved as they have to enable us the ability to think laterally. Nowhere but nowhere except in the selective superstition of the wilfully embracing is there any evidence for any interference of any kind.

I am not against "mind". It may play the role to show us the way, but it is limitless, Tao. It stops at a certain limits. It cant give answers to all questions, Tao...who created us, why, what is our origin, what is our end?! these are a number of questions mind cannt answer..

Hence, here we have the issue of transcending "the mind"...there is something higher than mind that can give us the whole answers, because even what that mind came to prove earlier as something undoubtful turned to collapse...This really arise the reliability of mind to achieve the accurate truth

You love the creator? Or you love the words in a book? The Koran is peppered with linguistic devices to incite fear and subservience. They are a rather baisc and naive, yet highly effective, set of psychological tools. They reek of the sweat of man and have nothing to suggest extraordinary source. They are the basic laws of holding political authority via religion.

I am sure no matter how you describe how much your both sons are very dear to you I cant feel that feelings unless I experience it too. Simply because it is something tasetful, and tastes cant be described. Sweetness cant be described for example unless you experience it...

The same thing about loving God and connecting Him, Tao. It is something that cant be described unless you take the same experience...

The Holy Quran is a book of guidance and of light. Just look at how people were in the peninsula Arabia, and how they turned to be after. How extremely I like the sayings of Jaafar Ibn Talib May God be pleased with him in the presence of the king of Eutopia when he was asked about Muhammed peace be upon him. Jaafar said:

Your Majesty, the King, we were ignorant people. We worshipped the idols. We ate dead animals. We did bad actions and abandoned our relatives. We mistreated our neighbors. The strong oppressed the weak. So Allah has sent us an Apostle. We know his ancestors and his truthfulness. We know that he is pure and trustworthy So, he has invited us to worship the Only Allah. He has ordered us to avoid what we and our fathers had worshipped. He has ordered us to be truthful and to give the trusts to their owners. He has ordered us to visit our relatives, to be good neighbors, to stop bad actions and shedding blood. He has prevented us from atrocities, falsehood taking the orphan's money and speaking evil of the married women. He has ordered us to worship Allah only and not to be polytheists. He has ordered us to pray, to give alms, and to fast."

Islam isnt a tool of political authority, otherwise you wont find Muslims rebellions in every Islamic country which are declaring Islam, and not practising its teachings..

Believe me, Tao, making youth sink in an endless sea of drugs, sexual freedom, and all the materialistic life instead of trying to educate them and promote by them to what is really beneficial to them and others is the real political tool in others who raise the flag of secularisation...They are conducting their youth far far far from being of a sincere interest than that of their materialistic pleasure..

I would not enter into a relationship without a high degree of mutual understanding and I am past all the procreative reasoning behind sexual jealousy. I do not want more kids. I would hope that my choice of partner is wise enough that they are intelligent enough and respectful enough not to do it under my nose. I am back to only having a single lover and knowing her expressive sexuality I presume that although I am her main lover she possibly has more. But I do not ask. I enjoy the time we share together and have no wish nor need to police her life when she is not with me.

Your words give the impression that you are looking for a sexual pleasure, and not someone to share with real, pure emotions. If you really love somone, Tao, you will be entirely hurt by her being unfaithful to you..

Needs is the wrong word. However men are physically evolved to take advantage of every opportunity.

That's why God said that man is created weak, and that's why God ordered man to lower their gaze, and that's why God asked women to cover their body...It is all for the happiness of your small house, your partner and children , Tao...

Truth for me is I will be a long time dead. Better enjoy life as opportunity arises.

The problem is that you are not sure of this truth...

This god of yours has no humility and no respect for even my thoughts! I do not understand how people like you can actually believe such nonsense. It is nothing short of psychotic.

it is like a father who is All knowing in front of a child who thinks he knows all. The father warns, shows the way, while the son insists on what he thinks is right. The father doesnt stop the son, though he can. Yet, he wishes from the bottom of his heart that his son really knows what the truth really is...

It can be, though it is, being covered in mile high glaciers until 10,000 years ago, not very species rich. To you it would appear incredibly green. But for sure it has some amazing little corners.

Fairy Glen, Isle of Skye:

Glory to God alone...Mash Allah, it is wonderful...

 

[Tao_Equus]

I think Tao you are trying to escape anything that may create that doubt that there is a supernatural power dealing with us. That's why you are doing your best to fill everything into the box of the non existence of God...

No. I really wanted there to be some truth in ideas of the supernatural and in a sense I wish there was a god that judges our actions. But this is a circular route for debate, my position is clear and so is yours. We are unlikely to make any headway here.

Again, Tao, the escape from facing anything that may say there is a presence of a supernatural power...How can you ignore the reasonable scientific facts prestented by Prof. Alison?! Is it just beacuse his facts supported the existence of a supernatural power...

Because he presents no science worthy of the label science. The market for Muslim apologetic is a fast growing and lucrative one. It is in that area and that area alone that this quack has any expertise.

I am not against "mind". It may play the role to show us the way, but it is limitless, Tao. It stops at a certain limits. It cant give answers to all questions, Tao...who created us, why, what is our origin, what is our end?! these are a number of questions mind cannt answer..

Science leaves theology in the dark ages when it comes to addressing such questions. It does tell us very accurately where we came from, we evolved. We were not 'created'. As to our end....well nobody knows that....I hope.

I am sure no matter how you describe how much your both sons are very dear to you I cant feel that feelings unless I experience it too. Simply because it is something tasetful, and tastes cant be described. Sweetness cant be described for example unless you experience it...

The same thing about loving God and connecting Him, Tao. It is something that cant be described unless you take the same experience...

My sons are real living breathing people. Not products of the imagination.

Islam isnt a tool of political authority, otherwise you wont find Muslims rebellions in every Islamic country which are declaring Islam, and not practising its teachings..

I feel you cannot have read the history of Islam that I have read.

Believe me, Tao, making youth sink in an endless sea of drugs, sexual freedom, and all the materialistic life instead of trying to educate them and promote by them to what is really beneficial to them and others is the real political tool in others who raise the flag of secularisation...They are conducting their youth far far far from being of a sincere interest than that of their materialistic pleasure..

People have always taken drugs and enjoyed sex. Just because authority, in whichever form, uses the emotive nature of certain taboos to stir up a storm in a teacup does not mean the truth is that everybody in the west is hellbent on a life of debauchery. Educating them in the heady drug of Islamic fervour is no less mind altering and stupifying than any narcotic.

Your words give the impression that you are looking for a sexual pleasure, and not someone to share with real, pure emotions. If you really love somone, Tao, you will be entirely hurt by her being unfaithful to you..

Not true. I love and respect her as a person. I want her to enjoy her life. She will not remain in Scotland forever and she is not my possession.

That's why God said that man is created weak, and that's why God ordered man to lower their gaze, and that's why God asked women to cover their body...It is all for the happiness of your small house, your partner and children , Tao...

Well that is the propaganda you wish to believe.

The problem is that you are not sure of this truth...

I am as certain of it as I am certain that I will bleed red blood when cut.

it is like a father who is All knowing in front of a child who thinks he knows all. The father warns, shows the way, while the son insists on what he thinks is right. The father doesnt stop the son, though he can. Yet, he wishes from the bottom of his heart that his son really knows what the truth really is...

The trouble being the only father that exists is the institution of faith. A cruel, malevolant, vengeful father that is.

I do not wish to appear condesceding but I firmly believe my mental freedom is a cultural and educational gift that simply has not been afforded to you. If you you had been born here and had my experience you would not believe in god. If I had been born in your place I would be using your justifications. This in itself is proof that belief is a cultural imposition and not anything deeper.

 

[dailogue is the best]

Because he presents no science worthy of the label science. The market for Muslim apologetic is a fast growing and lucrative one. It is in that area and that area alone that this quack has any expertise.

I am not going to present you a CV of prof. Alison to show who he is.This is not our concern. Yet, I just want to direct your intention that Prof. Alison refered to a fact that some people experienced during coma. This experience shows that the spirit works while the body is clinically considered dead.

Science leaves theology in the dark ages when it comes to addressing such questions. It does tell us very accurately where we came from, we evolved. We were not 'created'. As to our end....well nobody knows that....I hope.

Well, Tao, if you believe that your ancestors were "monkeys", the question then is "why hevent the other monkeys eveloved yet?"

God created everything/everyone in this world for a definite puropse. That purpose is lasting till we meet Him.

My sons are real living breathing people. Not products of the imagination.

Well, Tao, imagine you have some relatives in a very distant palce that hasnt yet reached civilization and technology. I magine with me, you go to those relatives and say: "there is land called Morocco. This land exists in the South of the world. and I connect with a person from there using a small machine". Most of the people wont believe you. They would consider you a crazy person with a vivid imagination. They were so arrogant to believe in someone else. They submit to their ego alone: when they see by themselves alone. Only those who really trust you are going to believe you. They know you are someone to be trusted. You never ever lied to them...

The prophets peace be upon them had that connection with God, and because they were people of trust, faithfulness and high morals, they were believed by some. Yet, most of them neglected them, misguided by their limited ego (arrogance, envy, or whatever...)

This in itself is proof that belief is a cultural imposition and not anything deeper.

Not all the time, Tao. we mustnt skin people from their ability and will. People shouldnt be a blind follower of everything in their culture. God endowed them with mind to use for knowing the right from the wrong. Dont forget the story of Abraham peace be upon him.

 

[citizenzen]

Well, Tao, if you believe that your ancestors were "monkeys", the question then is "why hevent the other monkeys eveloved yet?"

With your line of reasoning, you might as well ask why are there any simple organisms left at all? By your logic every organism would evolve toward maximum complexity, when we know that isn't how life and evolution work.

Organisms don't evolve towards complexity. They evolve to fill niches of survivability. That's why most of them are still so simple, even after billions of years.

 

[Avi]

Originally Posted by dailogue is the best
Well, Tao, if you believe that your ancestors were "monkeys", the question then is "why hevent the other monkeys eveloved yet?"

So here is fear of, not G-d but, evolution.

We know that man evolved from monkeys because we all know people who are not as intelligent as monkeys that we meet in our local zoo's .

But is there reason to fear evolution ? Yes there is. Imagine in 1,000 years what man (and woman) will look like. We will have titanium arms and legs. We will have fully artificial organs. Our brains with be bio-assisted organs with computer interfaces. Will will live hundreds of years. The man-machine interface with be completely blurred.

What can we do ? We need to begin to study bio-ethics, very soon.

 

[iBrian]

Well, Tao, if you believe that your ancestors were "monkeys", the question then is "why hevent the other monkeys eveloved yet?"

Um, they have - there are very few species alive today which can be said to have remained unchanged for millions of years, cf, Tuatara, Coelecanth, etc.

 

[Tao_Equus]

I am not going to present you a CV of prof. Alison to show who he is.This is not our concern. Yet, I just want to direct your intention that Prof. Alison refered to a fact that some people experienced during coma. This experience shows that the spirit works while the body is clinically considered dead.

I did take a look at his work and claims before I posted an opinion on him. I stand by my assertion he is a quack/charlatan filling an evolutionary niche. He provides a sense of credibility to those Muslims that seek to twist science to the service of Islam. They buy his books and make him a living. You can see evolution everywhere you look once you understand how it works. And as CZ and this point concur on, some things never change much at all.

Well, Tao, if you believe that your ancestors were "monkeys", the question then is "why hevent the other monkeys eveloved yet?"

This statement has already been jumped on by CZ and Avi. Why? Because the statement itself demonstrates that you do not even have a basic understand of evolutionary science. How can you make a comment on it when you are ignorant of the facts?

Well, Tao, imagine you have some relatives in a very distant palce that hasnt yet reached civilization and technology. I magine with me, you go to those relatives and say: "there is land called Morocco. This land exists in the South of the world. and I connect with a person from there using a small machine". Most of the people wont believe you. They would consider you a crazy person with a vivid imagination. They were so arrogant to believe in someone else. They submit to their ego alone: when they see by themselves alone. Only those who really trust you are going to believe you. They know you are someone to be trusted. You never ever lied to them...

I do! My parents have a generational isolation from this technology. But I am able to take it to them and demonstrate that it is real. No religion could even dream of doing that.

The prophets peace be upon them had that connection with God, and because they were people of trust, faithfulness and high morals, they were believed by some. Yet, most of them neglected them, misguided by their limited ego (arrogance, envy, or whatever...)

Well I have a very different view of the prophets from you. But rather than embark on another diatribe let me try to put it another way to you....

Over the years I have had on many occasions found myself to be intimately involved in events that were subsequently reported in local, national and even international news. On every occasion, and there are really too many for me to count, the reports printed in the press have varied from minor to gross misrepresentation of the facts. Whether it be official press releases being butchered and reconstructed, bad note taking of the journalist covering the story, or second hand accounts being accepted as true those and many other factors all connive to misrepresent truth.
Now in the case of Muhammad we have what he supposedly got told by an angel being perfectly, word for word, remembered by him as he narated to a scribe whos work he could not check. Because he was illiterate. He did this many times with many scribes and then some 80 years after his death Uthman, who was by then chief honcho ordered that every writing be collected, on pain of death, so that he could edit it to his liking.
The fact is the Koran contradicts itself hundreds of times. This is a clear indication that there are errors throughout and if such errors are present content errors are inevitable. The Koran itself is no more a reliable truth than the New York times is on say, the US involvement in the slaughter of 1 million East Timorese people. Even at the begining there was a schism that has remained to this day in the Sunni and Shia schools. The same is true not just for Islam. It is a recurrent feature in every doctrine.

Not all the time, Tao. we mustnt skin people from their ability and will. People shouldnt be a blind follower of everything in their culture. God endowed them with mind to use for knowing the right from the wrong. Dont forget the story of Abraham peace be upon him.

You mean the guy that had a knife to his sons throat and was about to cut it on gods orders, before god said "hey dude I was only testing you" ? Sorry, but I am bit more selective in choosing role models.

 

[Eudaimonist]

But is there reason to fear evolution ? Yes there is. Imagine in 1,000 years what man (and woman) will look like. We will have titanium arms and legs. We will have fully artificial organs. Our brains with be bio-assisted organs with computer interfaces. Will will live hundreds of years. The man-machine interface with be completely blurred.

Sounds great! But this has nothing to do with evolution.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Avi]

Sounds great! But this has nothing to do with evolution.

eudaimonia,

Mark

Hi Mark, thanks for your observation. But my comment was indeed related to evolution.

You are refering to the fact that my description specifically mentioned changes related to the man / machine interface, and these will dominate the changes to humans in the future.

But because of natural selection, humans will "adapt" to these changes and hence evolve synergistically with them. An good example of this is the vestigial nature of our appendix.

 

[dailogue is the best]

I did take a look at his work and claims before I posted an opinion on him. I stand by my assertion he is a quack/charlatan filling an evolutionary niche. He provides a sense of credibility to those Muslims that seek to twist science to the service of Islam. They buy his books and make him a living.

It seems clear that you have your own ready judgements, Tao. I can give you unlimited numbers of scientists who has converted to Islam, and I am fully sure that you are going to accuse them all of the same ready judgements as that above...For you, among those, there are no one who really submits to truth..there is no honourable man among those...Does it seem fair and logic!?

This statement has already been jumped on by CZ and Avi. Why? Because the statement itself demonstrates that you do not even have a basic understand of evolutionary science. How can you make a comment on it when you are ignorant of the facts?

For me evolution theory has a lot of shortcomings, the most important of which is the neglection of a creator. Darwin talks about the evolution of some species, and he neglects who created those species..he neglectes who created nature...his theory is incomplete and doesnt answer all questions...

As for the evolution theory, it has really collapsed. Look at the latest findings of that lemur fossile which was claimed to be the origine of man..It has been founded as it is since the old times..

Harun Yahya - THE TRUE FACTS ABOUT THE FICTITIOUS 'MISSING LINK' IDA THAT DARWINISTS NEVER MENTION - Download Page

I do! My parents have a generational isolation from this technology. But I am able to take it to them and demonstrate that it is real. No religion could even dream of doing that.

If you brought them that between their hands, and they wouldnt believe, then it would be another story.

Well I have a very different view of the prophets from you. But rather than embark on another diatribe let me try to put it another way to you....

Over the years I have had on many occasions found myself to be intimately involved in events that were subsequently reported in local, national and even international news. On every occasion, and there are really too many for me to count, the reports printed in the press have varied from minor to gross misrepresentation of the facts. Whether it be official press releases being butchered and reconstructed, bad note taking of the journalist covering the story, or second hand accounts being accepted as true those and many other factors all connive to misrepresent truth.
Now in the case of Muhammad we have what he supposedly got told by an angel being perfectly, word for word, remembered by him as he narated to a scribe whos work he could not check. Because he was illiterate. He did this many times with many scribes and then some 80 years after his death Uthman, who was by then chief honcho ordered that every writing be collected, on pain of death, so that he could edit it to his liking.
The fact is the Koran contradicts itself hundreds of times. This is a clear indication that there are errors throughout and if such errors are present content errors are inevitable. The Koran itself is no more a reliable truth than the New York times is on say, the US involvement in the slaughter of 1 million East Timorese people. Even at the begining there was a schism that has remained to this day in the Sunni and Shia schools. The same is true not just for Islam. It is a recurrent feature in every doctrine.

Your story is really old and repeated...It really lacks too much reasearch..

You mean the guy that had a knife to his sons throat and was about to cut it on gods orders, before god said "hey dude I was only testing you" ? Sorry, but I am bit more selective in choosing role models.

That's another story, Tao. I meant the courageous man who defied all his society, with its establishments and doctrines to stand by his own belief.

 

[Tao_Equus]

It seems clear that you have your own ready judgements, Tao. I can give you unlimited numbers of scientists who has converted to Islam, and I am fully sure that you are going to accuse them all of the same ready judgements as that above...For you, among those, there are no one who really submits to truth..there is no honourable man among those...Does it seem fair and logic!?

Sometimes it is clearly a case of people having no integrity or honour yes. Other times fervour alone clouds good judgement. Oh.... and "unlimited" is a very big amount... so I will challenge you to name just 1 that has any argument over standard evolutionary theory. Now how kind am I !!

For me evolution theory has a lot of shortcomings..

I do not know how you can have an opinion on it, you have already demonstrated you do not even have a basic understanding of its propositions.

Your story is really old and repeated...It really lacks too much reasearch..

But notably you refrain from saying it is not true. Because you cannot. It is the facts according to your own tradition. Just seen through the lense of common sense.

That's another story, Tao. I meant the courageous man who defied all his society, with its establishments and doctrines to stand by his own belief.

Well I am a father. I would rather burn in hell for eternity than murder my own son. I do not need lessons from such a character.

 

[farhan]

But notably you refrain from saying it is not true.

I guess it was implied

I would rather burn in hell for eternity than murder my own son.

Thats kind of the whole point. There is a good reason why half of the human population considers him their spiritual father. He earned it